Evil...

Galvasean

kelly1 wrote: »

I suppose it depends on what you mean by world. There are good people and bad people and people in between.

I suppose these good people are the ones who agree with your beliefs on pornography?

kelly1 wrote: »

But the "spirit of the world" if I could put it that way, works against God. Those in power want to push God out of public life and relegate it to the home.

:rolleyes: Oh go back to the 'Persecuted Church thread if you want to moan about that.
George Bush is in power. Last I checked he's a big fan of God (publicly).

kelly1 wrote: »

If this were not so, we wouldn't have people trying to get rid of the 10 commandments from courtrooms

Ten Commandments should be abolished from the courtrooms. Think about it. A Hindu man is on trial. 'Wait a minute, he doesn't believe in our God. he believes in false Gods, GUILTY!!!!!'

Tigger

Galvasean wrote: »

I suppose these good people are the ones who agree with your beliefs on pornography?


:rolleyes: Oh go back to the 'Persecuted Church thread if you want to moan about that.
George Bush is in power. Last I checked he's a big fan of God (publicly).




Ten Commandments should be abolished from the courtrooms. Think about it. A Hindu man is on trial. 'Wait a minute, he doesn't believe in our God. he believes in false Gods, GUILTY!!!!!'

thats one of the handy bits they use in theus
also coveting ass
they hate that over there

LaVidaLoca

Listen to this guff:

The spirit of the world pushes pornography on us and ridicules such notions as chastity and holiness. What a sick world we live in. Thank God for good people.

Why are you so hung up on pornography and chastity and holiness?

There real and tangible and terrible war, genocide, famine, disease, misery, corruption, rape, and insanity going on all over the world, yet the thought that bothers you is that some girl somehwere is wearing a short skirt, or some teenager might be having a surreptitious ****.

Get your freaking priorities in order before you start lecturing people on morality.

Doctor DooM

kelly1 wrote: »

I suppose it depends on what you mean by world. There are good people and bad people and people in between. But the "spirit of the world" if I could put it that way, works against God. Those in power want to push God out of public life and relegate it to the home. If this were not so, we wouldn't have people trying to get rid of the 10 commandments from courtrooms and having "In God we trust" removed from dollar bills. The spirit of the world pushes pornography on us and ridicules such notions as chastity and holiness. What a sick world we live in. Thank God for good people.

Strange coming from you to be honest. I have yet to see your positive side.

Ah, now here, I personally think great evils happen when religion is pushed into everyday life. I don't think we need to go into the history of the RC church in Ireland again, do we?

Is it not "evil" to force someone who doesn't believe in your god into acting like they do so? To observe your rules in public life?

And finally, if a good man, who for example, saves lives all day as a firefighter or a doctor or simply puts a smile on peoples faces, wants to go home and read a jizz rag and fool around with his girlfried to relax, I think he is perfectly entitled to do so, and is a much more "good" person than someone who claims to be holy, observes all the rules of a given religion but doesn't really make the world all the better place.

Tigger

SDooM wrote: »

Ah, now here, I personally think great evils happen when religion is pushed into everyday life. I don't think we need to go into the history of the RC church in Ireland again, do we?

Is it not "evil" to force someone who doesn't believe in your god into acting like they do so? To observe your rules in public life?

And finally, if a good man, who for example, saves lives all day as a firefighter or a doctor or simply puts a smile on peoples faces, wants to go home and read a jizz rag and fool around with his girlfried to relax, I think he is perfectly entitled to do so, and is a much more "good" person than someone who claims to be holy, observes all the rules of a given religion but doesn't really make the world all the better place.

thats the ironing of preaching bar stewards they don't realise that tyhe stuff "jesus" said wasn't about picking on people but on loving them any way

good thing he's not still around or he'd be very dissapointed in them

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

I suppose it depends on what you mean by world. There are good people and bad people and people in between. But the "spirit of the world" if I could put it that way, works against God. Those in power want to push God out of public life and relegate it to the home. If this were not so, we wouldn't have people trying to get rid of the 10 commandments from courtrooms and having "In God we trust" removed from dollar bills. The spirit of the world pushes pornography on us and ridicules such notions as chastity and holiness. What a sick world we live in. Thank God for good people....etc

No the spirit of the world pushes nothing on me if can help it except maybe the fear that was used to weld into my brain ridiculous beliefs and cripple my natural brightness(if I do say so myself) as a child that wasn't the spirit of the world it was a powerful and power lusting church.
I wonder do you think I'm a bad person? And if you decided I am you know very little about me.

SDooM articulated it pretty well.

Zombrex

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

Why are you so hung up on pornography and chastity and holiness?

People get hung up on the things they have hang ups about. They are often drawn to religions or authorities that appear to externally justify these hang ups.

A lot of people have hang ups about sex, it is no surprise that this is reflected in a lot of religions.

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

In the same way that we can be filled with the Holy Spirit and do good, we can also allow evil spirits and the devil influence over us. For this reason, there is no limit to the depths to which we can sink. We can be driven for the forces of evil and lose control of ourselves.

Thoughts?

see, that only applies in you believe in the devil or whatever...
I dont believe in an ultimalte evil - i think some people are nurtured to be evil, though whatever - parents, being subject to tortures as a kid - doesn't justify it but at least maybe explains it.

I mean, if you say its genetic, or imagine it is one day proved to be genetic - then that means people will argue that they are not personally responsible. Its DNA made them kill....

Latchy

A lot of people are also quiet comfortable with their sexuality and like to show it off more than others.Some will enjoy sex in the same way as enjoying food or a beer ..without the hangups .

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. Morally, we've come on in leaps and bounds.

That would depend on whose morality you're talking about.

seamus wrote: »

Think about all of the thing which went on fifty years ago which would horrify us now - corporal punishment, torture, corruption. Child abuse was rampant, both among the clergy and the lay people. Families just turned a blind eye to drunken Uncle Joe and warned the kids not to be alone with him. Homosexuals and unmarried mothers faced a life of exile and even being attacked on the street.

Some things have improved granted but I think you'll agree that lots of things have got far worse. Young people falling about in the street drunk out of their brains and sitting in their own vomit. Total lack of modesty among young girls (commando/snowballing at discos), seedy sex shops/lap dancing bars. Increasing drug abuse and violence. Lack of repect among young people for people in authority (hoodie generation). A very sick porn industry that had emerged on the net (child porn and violent porn).

seamus wrote: »

Don't let the media fool you - we are living in a time when it's never been safer, easier or healthier to be a human being.

Safer?? There was a time when people could leave their door unlocked and now people need layers of security and people are afraid to go out alone at night for fear of being mugged! No way is it safer! Children used to be able to go out all day and play without the parents having to worry. Now it's not safe to let children out of sight. Very few see the world as getting any safer IMO.

Latchy

Originally Posted by seamus
Think about all of the thing which went on fifty years ago which would horrify us now - corporal punishment, torture, corruption. Child abuse was rampant, both among the clergy and the lay people. Families just turned a blind eye to drunken Uncle Joe and warned the kids not to be alone with him. Homosexuals and unmarried mothers faced a life of exile and even being attacked on the street.

On reflection perhaps we are more aware and educated about about these things but as kelly1 says definatley not safer .

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

That would depend on whose morality you're talking about.

Some things have improved granted but I think you'll agree that lots of things have got far worse. Young people falling about in the street drunk out of their brains and sitting in their own vomit. Total lack of modesty among young girls (commando/snowballing at discos), seedy sex shops/lap dancing bars. Increasing drug abuse and violence. Lack of repect among young people for people in authority (hoodie generation). A very sick porn industry that had emerged on the net (child porn and violent porn).

Safer?? There was a time when people could leave their door unlocked and now people need layers of security and people are afraid to go out alone at night for fear of being mugged! No way is it safer! Children used to be able to go out all day and play without the parents having to worry. Now it's not safe to let children out of sight. Very few see the world as getting any safer IMO.

So whats the answer? Ireland has changed. Remember Bertie Aherne would call himself catholic and he presided over Ireland's development(or lack thereof) when we had the money. So if even a catholic politician can't keeps us on the straight on narrow who do we turn to?

seamus

kelly1 wrote: »

That would depend on whose morality you're talking about.

Indeed.

Some things have improved granted but I think you'll agree that lots of things have got far worse. Young people falling about in the street drunk out of their brains and sitting in their own vomit. Total lack of modesty among young girls (commando/snowballing at discos)

Minor issues in reality which only occur on a small scale. They're not endemic and they're not socially acceptable. Just because these things occur, doesn't indicate a loss of morals.
As latchyco also quite rightly points out, we've become more educated about these things. We're now more likely to point fingers and speak out and report crimes than we used to be. Families are no longer content to brush stuff under the carpet and forget about what a relative did to them in the past. Hence, we hear about what's going on. I'm talking about morality in terms of what's acceptable, not what's happening. Few of the things you've mentioned are morally acceptable.

A very sick porn industry that had emerged on the net (child porn and violent porn).

Always existed. Without a doubt. The net just provided a previously non-existent method of staying anonymous. Which incidentally won't last long. Child porn and violent porn however have been in existence for hundreds of years. Again, not an indicator of a lowering in morals.

There was a time when people could leave their door unlocked and now people need layers of security and people are afraid to go out alone at night for fear of being mugged! No way is it safer! Children used to be able to go out all day and play without the parents having to worry. Now it's not safe to let children out of sight. Very few see the world as getting any safer IMO.

That's a media and advertising coup. If someone wants to rob your home, they will, alarm or no. If someone wants to steal your child, they will, regardless of the tabs you keep on them. The fact is, both of these scenarios are ridiculously unlikely.

Just because people have been convinced that they're less safe than they used to be, doesn't make it so. Gangs of dangerous criminals have been in existence for hundreds of years. Regardless of how much people like to yearn for the "good old days", elderly people will admit that even in the 40's and 50's, there were areas of Dublin that you just didn't go because you'd be attacked.

I'm just going to iterate this a third time in case I've not been good at explaining myself;

corporal punishment, torture, corruption. Child abuse was rampant, both among the clergy and the lay people. Families just turned a blind eye to drunken Uncle Joe and warned the kids not to be alone with him. Homosexuals and unmarried mothers faced a life of exile and even being attacked on the street.

Fifty or one hundred years ago, this stuff was acceptable. Just think about that - people agreed that unmarried mothers deserved to be left in the gutter to rot and that being felt up by a priest was a privilege.
The existence of crime in modern terms doesn't justify it. Just because people look at child porn on the net, doesn't mean that society approves of it.

LaVidaLoca

You seem to be entirely fixated on people's sexual morality.

Yes I agree Irish people drink too much. In the past it was only men that did this, now everyone does it. And this is largely becuase they have lots more money to do it with. If the average Irishman in 1950 could have had the disposable incomes we all have now, he'd have been just as smashed as people are now. Probably more so, as then, there was absolutely nothing else to do. No telly, no foreign holidays, and so on.

Total lack of modesty among young girls

"Modesty?" Jesus, what did you do, crawl out of a Thomas Hardy novel? It's 2008. If you want to use terms like 'Modesty' about females, go party with Mullah Omar in a cave in the Tora Bora mountains.

commando/snowballing at discos

That is a perfect example. There is probably about 5 girls that actually did this (if any) and every schoolboy has been talking about it in hushed tones since, and it got inflated it into a media story. Beleive me, the young are getting laid slightly more than our generation was, but not that much more. Remember the 1980's and the Rainbow Kiss? Like anyone ever actually did that!


Child Porn: Dude, until the 20th century it would have been common for girls as young as 14 to be married in Ireland and many other Catholic countries.

There was probably just about the same amount of Drunken Uncle Joe (Not to mention Father Joe) going on in the 1950's than there was now, except that then you would have been cast out of decent Catholic company if you told anyone.

Now there are organisations out there to help the victims, public opinion never forgives a peado whether he's a priest or not, and the perpetrators are put in prison rather than moved to another parish.

Statistically speaking, there are just as many practicing peadophiles in the world now as a proportion of population as there was in 1950, the difference being that now, we are far better at catching them. Thus it might look to you like it's a modern perversion. Its not, it's as old as humanity itself.

Now none of this, of course is to say that modern society is perfect: Granted we now live in a consumer society: People in the West are encouraged to be selfish and materialistic cause it's good for the economy. The poor are more aware of how poor they are as they can they see the aspirational culture all around them. This makes them more angry and violent. In 1950 most everybody in Ireland was poor so nobody felt left out.

Kids respected authority cause authority would beat the living **** out of them if they didn't (and in some cases rape them).

Have you got any answers to these problems other than "Everything was better in the old days, let's wind the clock (and our minds) back to 1432" ?

Doctor DooM

kelly1 wrote: »

That would depend on whose morality you're talking about.

Some things have improved granted but I think you'll agree that lots of things have got far worse. Young people falling about in the street drunk out of their brains and sitting in their own vomit. Total lack of modesty among young girls (commando/snowballing at discos), seedy sex shops/lap dancing bars. Increasing drug abuse and violence. Lack of repect among young people for people in authority (hoodie generation). A very sick porn industry that had emerged on the net (child porn and violent porn).

Safer?? There was a time when people could leave their door unlocked and now people need layers of security and people are afraid to go out alone at night for fear of being mugged! No way is it safer! Children used to be able to go out all day and play without the parents having to worry. Now it's not safe to let children out of sight. Very few see the world as getting any safer IMO.

I am very much glad that morality is less and less governed by any given religion: Surely you can see this, from a secular point of view, is a good thing, Noel?


The lack of modesty thing... it's not the 1950's. If girls want to express themselves, bully for them. How dare anyone try to deny them the right to appear how they want.

People in authority sometimes forget respect is earned, not given, and thats the way it should be.

For the record, I have lived in a working class suburb for 28 years and I have never once been burgled or mugged.

Religion never curbed the drinking problem here, either.

If you want to talk about evil, you must define it, I feel.

kelly1

SDooM wrote: »

I am very much glad that morality is less and less governed by any given religion: Surely you can see this, from a secular point of view, is a good thing, Noel?

I see it as a good thing that the state doesn't concern itself with personal morality but religion and in particular Christianity is very important, to me at least, as a guide to how God wants us to live.

SDooM wrote: »

The lack of modesty thing... it's not the 1950's. If girls want to express themselves, bully for them. How dare anyone try to deny them the right to appear how they want.

Of course nobody can and should control what people wear. What I'm concerned about is what God thinks of skimpy clothes worn outside the bedroom.

SDooM wrote: »

Religion never curbed the drinking problem here, either.

True but I'll wager there's a link between lack of religious practice and binge drinking.

SDooM wrote: »

If you want to talk about evil, you must define it, I feel.

Did you read my OP? I'm talking about gravely wrong or immoral acts.

Galvasean

kelly1 wrote: »

I see it as a good thing that the state doesn't concern itself with personal morality but religion and in particular Christianity is very important, to me at least, as a guide to how God wants us to live.

See, thats the thing religion is very important to you. Not so much to others.

kelly1 wrote: »

What I'm concerned about is what God thinks of skimpy clothes worn outside the bedroom.

If God doesn't like seeing the human form why did he create Adam and Eve naked?

kelly1 wrote: »

True but I'll wager there's a link between lack of religious practice and binge drinking.

Father Jack Hackett disagrees. But seriously I'll wager there isn't. The decisive factor in increases in binge drinking, particularly in young people and women would be an increased in income and expendable capital.

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

What I'm concerned about is what God thinks of skimpy clothes worn outside the bedroom.

Why would an entity, billions of year old, powerful enough to create a universe that is bigger and more complex than we can even begin to imagine, really care how long a persons skirt is?

I mean, that concept is just so bizarre.

CodeMonkey

Dades wrote: »

Why would an entity, billions of year old, powerful enough to create a universe that is bigger and more complex than we can even begin to imagine, really care how long a persons skirt is?

I mean, that concept is just so bizarre.

That's cause when man created god, they gave him all their believes and hang ups. God doesn't really care, his creator(s) do.

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

I see it as a good thing that the state doesn't concern itself with personal morality but religion and in particular Christianity is very important, to me at least, as a guide to how God wants us to live.

OK, so i'll go with the christian strain of thought, God wants us to live out our days by 10 rules he gave us. Fine & no problem (well , ...) however, would God be happy that down thru the years hundred of thousands of people have been butchered in his name? Even though he never personally gave the ok - and i am talking about the church murdering and wiping out entire civilisations without gods permission... so how does that fly?

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course nobody can and should control what people wear. What I'm concerned about is what God thinks of skimpy clothes worn outside the bedroom.

Going with the others here that he created us naked... and thereofre wanted us that way. He is a god after all, he doesn't have shame or embarrassment like us mere mortals... He wanted us naked and we would have been created in clothes.

kelly1 wrote: »

True but I'll wager there's a link between lack of religious practice and binge drinking.

Sorry, know plenty of religious people who are alco's... and after that, Jesus turned his blood into wine - so clearly its grand to drink. So dont go worrying too much about that...

Doctor DooM

kelly1 wrote: »

I see it as a good thing that the state doesn't concern itself with personal morality but religion and in particular Christianity is very important, to me at least, as a guide to how God wants us to live.

Your god is a guide for how you wish to live. It should not be imposed on others who do not wish so. Ever, in my opinion. Religion is yet to prove it can run a fair society. Power corrupts and religions are even more susceptable because there are less checks and balances there. Look at the way our country used to be.

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course nobody can and should control what people wear. What I'm concerned about is what God thinks of skimpy clothes worn outside the bedroom.

I seriously think God has better things to worry about, what with Satan and all.

In fact I would like to think if God exists, he would be proud of the beautiful creations of nature he made, humans included. Should we clothe animals too?

kelly1 wrote: »

True but I'll wager there's a link between lack of religious practice and binge drinking.

There's really not you know. There were just as many alcos in Ireland 50 years ago- we just have better tools for recording it now.

kelly1 wrote: »

Did you read my OP? I'm talking about gravely wrong or immoral acts.

I did read your OP; In that you were talking about the worst human kind has to offer. Now you started associating this "Evil" with girls dressing too skimpy for your liking. Thats where I feel your definition falls down. Apologies if this was not your intention, but it is the way it appears.

kelly1

Dades wrote: »

Why would an entity, billions of year old, powerful enough to create a universe that is bigger and more complex than we can even begin to imagine, really care how long a persons skirt is?

I mean, that concept is just so bizarre.

Simply because revealing clothes are vain and cause temptation to lust.

Anyway this is getting away from the real discussion at hand.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

vain and cause temptation to lust.

Also known as "looking good" :pac:

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

Simply because revealing clothes are vain and cause temptation to lust.

We were created naked - does that not indicate anything to you?
Wouldn't that cause Lust? not making any sense these comments

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Simply because revealing clothes are vain and cause temptation to lust.

Anyway this is getting away from the real discussion at hand.

Nice dodge Noel. I see you're still using the catholic doctrine shield. :pac:

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

Simply because revealing clothes are vain and cause temptation to lust.

Does God want, say, Indonesian tribeswomen to cover up too? Or just First World women?

Red Hand

Dades wrote: »

Does God want, say, Indonesian tribeswomen to cover up too? Or just First World women?

Well, there are a few fellows in New Guinea that need to trim their cod pieces down!

CerebralCortex

A question I would love you to answer Noel. Dades its seems the catholic god is only as powerful as his church.

JC 2K3

kelly1 wrote: »

That would depend on whose morality you're talking about.

Some things have improved granted but I think you'll agree that lots of things have got far worse. Young people falling about in the street drunk out of their brains and sitting in their own vomit. Total lack of modesty among young girls (commando/snowballing at discos), seedy sex shops/lap dancing bars. Increasing drug abuse and violence. Lack of repect among young people for people in authority (hoodie generation). A very sick porn industry that had emerged on the net (child porn and violent porn).

Safer?? There was a time when people could leave their door unlocked and now people need layers of security and people are afraid to go out alone at night for fear of being mugged! No way is it safer! Children used to be able to go out all day and play without the parents having to worry. Now it's not safe to let children out of sight. Very few see the world as getting any safer IMO.

Lol, you know what also didn't exist in the past? Commerically driven, sensationalist, mass media.

LaVidaLoca

that a guy that doesnt give a rats arse what happens in Darfur, or Asia during the tsunami, or most of Sub-Saharan Africa, gives a **** about women wearing a few less inches of skirt?