If I import a second hand car from the UK after 1/07 will my car tax be based on c02?

seamy_orr

bazz26 wrote: »

Afaik Car manufacturers have made CO2 emmission data available on their models going back to 2001. Also don't the UK have a similar system in place for about 10 years now, how do they cope?

I'm thinking the real reason they backed down on the motor tax is they realised that the arse would fall out of the Irish second hand car market as it would make more sense for people to import a second hand car from the UK with a low CO2 rating leaving huge numbers of unsold second hand cars sitting here. Maybe they realised that revenue from motor tax would drastically fall, also maybe there was presure from the SIMI to preserve the second hand car market here?

You're completely right Bazz. I phoned the Dep't of Envrionment yesterday to find out why they had backed down on the new CO2 based tax system for all cars registered after July 2008 and they confirmed my fears. Apparently when they tried to put the legislation for this through in the Dail there was a big kickup from TDs with a vested interest in SIMI who said that this would create an imbalance in the used car market in Ireland. Gormley has backed down and only new Cars from 2008 onwards will be motor taxed based on the new CO2 emissions. It doesn't make sense that VRT and motor tax are applied using different systems. SIMI have got their way yet again and we are not allowed to buy our cars in an open EU market. This country is starting to get me down with all the Vested Interests involved in Government. Mugabe would give a better democracy than the shower wer have ruling the country at the minute. I am writing to John Gormley to get further clarification also.

whowantstwoknow

seamy_orr wrote: »

You're completely right Bazz. I phoned the Dep't of Envrionment yesterday to find out why they had backed down on the new CO2 based tax system for all cars registered after July 2008 and they confirmed my fears. Apparently when they tried to put the legislation for this through in the Dail there was a big kickup from TDs with a vested interest in SIMI who said that this would create an imbalance in the used car market in Ireland. Gormley has backed down and only new Cars from 2008 onwards will be motor taxed based on the new CO2 emissions. It doesn't make sense that VRT and motor tax are applied using different systems. SIMI have got their way yet again and we are not allowed to buy our cars in an open EU market. This country is starting to get me down with all the Vested Interests involved in Government. Mugabe would give a better democracy than the shower wer have ruling the country at the minute. I am writing to John Gormley to get further clarification also.

As somebody else said, aren't they just delaying the imbalance to a few years later (i.e lets say the majority of 2nd hand cars are 5 yrs old) so in 2013 the imbalance will reappear admittingly on a small number of 2008 cars.

W

The_Conductor

seamy_orr wrote: »

I am writing to John Gormley to get further clarification also.

Good luck with that one. In response to a request for clarification from me- I got a photocopy of a press release which clarified nada......

The_Conductor

corcaigh07 wrote: »

vrt gets better after july or worse??

Providing you can prove emissions with appropriate documentation, VRT will be calculated on the basis of emissions. Otherwise its the 36% rate.

Damomayo

all this rubbish with gormless changing his mind will drive us all to drink ( is that how their going to replace the revenue they might loose??)
Is it in law yet or still up for change??

-Chris-

seamy_orr wrote: »

You're completely right Bazz. I phoned the Dep't of Envrionment yesterday to find out why they had backed down on the new CO2 based tax system for all cars registered after July 2008 and they confirmed my fears. Apparently when they tried to put the legislation for this through in the Dail there was a big kickup from TDs with a vested interest in SIMI who said that this would create an imbalance in the used car market in Ireland. Gormley has backed down and only new Cars from 2008 onwards will be motor taxed based on the new CO2 emissions. It doesn't make sense that VRT and motor tax are applied using different systems. SIMI have got their way yet again and we are not allowed to buy our cars in an open EU market. This country is starting to get me down with all the Vested Interests involved in Government. Mugabe would give a better democracy than the shower wer have ruling the country at the minute. I am writing to John Gormley to get further clarification also.

Just to make a point, and bearing in mind that I have a vested interest also (employee of an SIMI garage), does anyone who comes on here saying "SIMI put pressure on the government to protect their used stock" EVER counterbalance that with the fact that protecting second hand values benefits the consumer also? I've never seen it...

If the arse fell out of the used car market, all the cars out there at the moment (yours, your mothers, your partners) would be affected too.
If there was suddenly a two-tier road tax system there would be a situation of haves and have-nots.
The haves would be the people who are importing cars from the UK (let's face it, a minority in the scheme of things).
The have-nots would be EVERYONE ELSE!

The incidence of importing cars would grow, Irish cars would be worth even less, leading to a vicious circle.

If the arse dropped out of the second hand market significantly, then a lot of Irish drivers who financed their cars would find themselves in NEGATIVE EQUITY. We're in enough financial uncertaintly without putting tens of thousands of drivers in negative equity on their car loans.

If you want to wish this scenario on the general public just so you can score points against the government/the SIMI or just so you can import your next car and get cheaper road tax on it, then I'm not sure what to say...



All that being said, I'm on record as saying this change has been grossly mis-managed. We need more accountability for those in the public service, if you ask me.

The_Conductor

AudiChris wrote: »

If the arse dropped out of the second hand market significantly, then a lot of Irish drivers who financed their cars would find themselves in NEGATIVE EQUITY. We're in enough financial uncertaintly without putting tens of thousands of drivers in negative equity on their car loans.

If you want to wish this scenario on the general public just so you can score points against the government/the SIMI or just so you can import your next car and get cheaper road tax on it, then I'm not sure what to say...

All that being said, I'm on record as saying this change has been grossly mis-managed. We need more accountability for those in the public service, if you ask me.

First of all- there are far more people facing negative equity on shoe-box apartments, than there are with cars purchased with finance deals. Your using the spectre of negative equity like the sword of damocles on the public, which is equally as unfortunate as the confused mutterings from the Department of the Environment. My mortgage is worth over 25 times more than my car loan- my car loan is the least of my worries. Negative equity- pah......

I have consistently argued that road tax should be replaced with the addition of a couple of pence on a litre of fuel, as this would be a far more accurate measure of cost of a person's road usage- which road tax is alleged to compensate for. I am not arguing for or against SIMI- obviously every vested party argues its own corner- there is a perception that SIMI gets a much better government audience than members of the public do however- which is what has been pointed out on this thread.

Regarding accountability for those in the public sector- care to elaborate? This whole mess is political in nature and has nothing whatsoever to do with the poor unfortunates in the Road Tax Policy Unit in the Department of the Environment who are getting flack on this from every direction. Its Minister Gormley and his lack of backbone that should be admonished, not the "accountability for those in the public service" that you are going on about.

All the current proposals have done is allowed garages to try to flog their used car stock at inflated prices to the unsuspecting public who will in due course discover in a few years time that their machines are unsaleable. A far more interesting question might be why garages charge VAT on secondhand car sales, when VAT was originally charged on the new product, and neither the original owner nor the current customer have the means to reclaim this (in most cases). If you were to mount a campaign against this obvious inequity- I'd be at the top of the queue cheering you on.

seamy_orr

AudiChris wrote: »

Just to make a point, and bearing in mind that I have a vested interest also (employee of an SIMI garage), does anyone who comes on here saying "SIMI put pressure on the government to protect their used stock" EVER counterbalance that with the fact that protecting second hand values benefits the consumer also? I've never seen it...

If the arse fell out of the used car market, all the cars out there at the moment (yours, your mothers, your partners) would be affected too.
If there was suddenly a two-tier road tax system there would be a situation of haves and have-nots.
The haves would be the people who are importing cars from the UK (let's face it, a minority in the scheme of things).
The have-nots would be EVERYONE ELSE!

The incidence of importing cars would grow, Irish cars would be worth even less, leading to a vicious circle.

If the arse dropped out of the second hand market significantly, then a lot of Irish drivers who financed their cars would find themselves in NEGATIVE EQUITY. We're in enough financial uncertaintly without putting tens of thousands of drivers in negative equity on their car loans.

If you want to wish this scenario on the general public just so you can score points against the government/the SIMI or just so you can import your next car and get cheaper road tax on it, then I'm not sure what to say...



All that being said, I'm on record as saying this change has been grossly mis-managed. We need more accountability for those in the public service, if you ask me.

The Dep't of the Environment state that this is to promote the idea of buying a Enviromentally friendly car. Now whether that is 3 year old or a 1 year old it should still have the same CO2 emissions.

Secondly by buying a second hand CO2 friendly car one is also negating the need for the manufacture of a new car which in my opinion has the biggest impact on CO2 level for the lifetime of a car.

And regarding your point about negating the value of second hand cars here, my reply would be why are we always protecting people from negative equity. It's an open market mate and in an open market prices fluctuate, that is life. If you or anyone choose to take out a loan on a car that was going to depreciate anyway then you must have been prepared to lose money in the first place. People in this country need a good boot in the arse as do the Government. We have for too long been a nanny state and we need people who can speak their minds not reiterate some right wing bull**** that you're supposed to think/say.

-Chris-

OK, we're getting waaaay OT at this point, but...

smccarrick wrote: »

I have consistently argued that road tax should be replaced with the addition of a couple of pence on a litre of fuel, as this would be a far more accurate measure of cost of a person's road usage- which road tax is alleged to compensate for.

I wholeheartedly agree.

smccarrick wrote: »

Regarding accountability for those in the public sector- care to elaborate? This whole mess is political in nature and has nothing whatsoever to do with the poor unfortunates in the Road Tax Policy Unit in the Department of the Environment who are getting flack on this from every direction. Its Minister Gormley and his lack of backbone that should be admonished, not the "accountability for those in the public service" that you are going on about.

Apologies, by that I mean accountability for those who are in the service of the public, within which I include politicians, teachers, priests, road tax officials etc. etc.

When I say accountability I'm talking about the following things:
-Two ministers, both controlling different elements of the same change - VRT and Road tax, one of whom will amend his position at the behest of vested interst groups, the other who will not.
-A group of advisors that let those ministers believe that it would be a good idea to do this change in the middle of the year.
-I'm not sure who's responsible for it, but whoever is in charge of communications should also be taken up on the fact that nobody knows what's going on. Everything I know, I learned on this forum (thanks, btw).
-The management who haven't hired temps or additional staff to man the phone lines in the road tax office to allow for what must be a vastly increased volume of phone calls.

..as to how the relevant people are held accountable, I'm not sure, but if I were to put a message on our phone that says "due to the increased volume of calls, we're only manning the phones from 10am-1pm and 2pm-3pm instead of the usual closing time of 4:30pm to allow us to catch up with the increased volume of calls", I'm sure words would be said (I won't say where I heard this message, but I will say it exists and that I don't find it acceptable).

smccarrick wrote: »

All the current proposals have done is allowed garages to try to flog their used car stock at inflated prices to the unsuspecting public who will in due course discover in a few years time that their machines are unsaleable.

Now it's your turn to elaborate ...
Inflated prices, unsuspecting public, unsaleable cars - how is this helped by creating a two-tier road tax system? Under the amendments, all cars are kept on an even footing from a road tax point-of-view.

smccarrick wrote: »

A far more interesting question might be why garages charge VAT on secondhand car sales, when VAT was originally charged on the new product, and neither the original owner nor the current customer have the means to reclaim this (in most cases). If you were to mount a campaign against this obvious inequity- I'd be at the top of the queue cheering you on.

This is a question you'll have to ask the Revenue. I don't believe garages get to choose who they charge VAT to, they just collect it on behalf of the state.
I think all forms of double taxation are unjust, again some accountability from the deciding bodies who have to justify to the public (a.k.a. their employers, ultimately) why the tax is levied and to prove that it's spent effectively.