So what type of relationship should Ireland have with Britain?

darkman2

Politically? My own opinion is that it should be no different to how we treat France or Germany. I dont see the reason or need to treat the UK any differently - for example like joining the Commonwealth or setting up meaningful Irish/UK political bodies. I also dont believe this country can ever have a mature relationship with the UK as long as Northern Ireland exists. We can have a good relationship and work together on various issues certainly but the two countries deep down will never see eye to eye on the North.


Other then the North, and even if it was sorted out in the morning, I dont see why Britain should be treated any differently to any other country. It is just that - a foreign country. The same as Italy, France and the US. All can claim to have close cultural links with this country and that, IMO, is not a good enough reason for strengthening political ties with Britain. Britains business in the 26 counties ended long ago - it seems with talk of Commonwealth membership etc in recent times a small minority seem to struggle to accept this fact.

Take these people for example

www.reform.org


and I know there are some on boards aswell that seem to have a yearning to stress that they have a strand of Britishness in them despite being born and brought up in a Republic. To me it seems to be a sort of tradition passed on through parents and grandparents that some people see themselves as 'different' to the rest of us and expect special treatment as if they are being oppressed or something.....this seems to be mostly based around religion.

Latchy

Not so much a yearning to stress any strand of britishness but just thst some of us work and live here .

I think the past ie,NI will always be a hangover for many decades or more to come

Riddle101

How should we treat Britain? Like Best Friends of course. We can't change our History i'll give you that but we need to forget the past and be able to say that the old days are gone and the new are here. Our relationship with Britain has been closer then ever and we should continue this because we're one in the same really, we're both Islands, we're right beside eachother, we speak English and we'ere a lot closer to England then we'll ever be to France and Germany

crip17

You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

WooPeeA

Irish economy and most of the trade inside the country depend on British market and investors.

Of course there's many big companies from USA (like for ex. Dell) or Germany (for ex. Lidl and Aldi) but most of all are British companies. Most of the invests comes from Britain.

They should be tread like best friends. I think that today's relations are pretty acceptable.

DublinWriter

darkman2 wrote: »

I also dont believe this country can ever have a mature relationship with the UK as long as Northern Ireland exists.

It's very politically naive to paint the UK as the bogeyman when it comes to Northern Ireland.

The whole 'Brits Out' argument makes me laugh. The UK would have pulled out of the Province long ago if they had a free choice. The area has been a massive drain on the UK economy since the 1950's and was increasingly moreso after the commencement of the troubles.

If Britain pulled out of the North in the morning, what do you think 500,000+ Unionists would do? Wake up in the morning, rub the sleep from their eyes, and go "Jaysus Billy, sure we might as well give this whole Republican thing a go".

No they would not. There would be an all-out civil war up there that would make Kosovo look like a tea party. Meanwhile Westminster would look over at Dublin and say "That's your problem now, chaps".

turgon

I second the above point

Additionally do you really think that the government would take on NI as fast as they say they would? I know that "we love our country" and that people like quoting from other people who died 90 years ago but realistically would be feckin ourselves up by taking on such a mess.

MrJoeSoap

crip17 wrote: »

You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

Whats that got to do with anything?

I agree 100% with Riddle101.

djpbarry

darkman2 wrote: »

All can claim to have close cultural links with this country and that, IMO, is not a good enough reason for strengthening political ties with Britain.

Do you have a good reason NOT to strengthen ties with Britain, or any other nation for that matter? Do you think Ireland should begin to break links with Britain?

darkman2 wrote: »

...and I know there are some on boards aswell that seem to have a yearning to stress that they have a strand of Britishness in them despite being born and brought up in a Republic.

I think it's quite likely that the vast majority of Irish people have British ancestors. For example, I'm 100% Irish as far as I'm concerned, but my surname is French in origin and my mother's maiden name is English. I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging that, or even taking an interest in it.

rockbeer

How about Ireland uniting with Britain? It's virtually the same country anyway, and not just because we speak the same language and drive on the left: we also watch the same soap operas, support the same football teams, shop in the same shops, aspire to the exact same vacuous middle class desires and values...

Leave the backward-looking parochial wasteland of the north to its own devices, and face facts: the republic has far more in common nowadays with Britain than NI so we might just as well become a single country.

Let's face it, we'll all be part of the USE soon anyway.

dsmythy

DublinWriter wrote: »

It's very politically naive to paint the UK as the bogeyman when it comes to Northern Ireland.

If Britain pulled out of the North in the morning, what do you think 500,000+ Unionists would do? Wake up in the morning, rub the sleep from their eyes, and go "Jaysus Billy, sure we might as well give this whole Republican thing a go".

No they would not. There would be an all-out civil war up there that would make Kosovo look like a tea party. Meanwhile Westminster would look over at Dublin and say "That's your problem now, chaps".

I agree with you there. If Britain said they wanted nothing to do with the North tomorrow the struggle would become "should Northern Ireland join with the Republic or become an independant state?". If violence ensues cue "ethnic cleansing" and mass movements of people into the Republic or into their respective safe regions within Northern Ireland.

If we intervened we would just become to the post-unionists, as i presume they would then be, what Britain was to nationalists.

So retain friendly relations with our closest neighbour would be my answer to the original question

SeanW

Funny thing is they mention the Commonwealth ... lemme see, an organisation of British ex-colonies with headquarters in London and the British monarch as its head ...

We can - and should - maintain good relations with the UK without joining their silly "Commonwealth." So much for Reform's "New Ireland" and "leaving the past behind" - it looks like they want to bring the past back to life.

eoin5

I know this question is being asked in a historical context but on a more present note I think we should be watching whats going on over there very closely. Our economic growth has slowed a lot but theyre really struggling now with their banks faltering. The council taxes are beginning to hurt people badly and they have serious social issues and crime problems too. The grass isnt greener over there at the moment.

turgon

rockbeer wrote: »

How about Ireland uniting with Britain? It's virtually the same country anyway, and not just because we speak the same language and drive on the left: we also watch the same soap operas, support the same football teams, shop in the same shops, aspire to the exact same vacuous middle class desires and values...

Leave the backward-looking parochial wasteland of the north to its own devices, and face facts: the republic has far more in common nowadays with Britain than NI so we might just as well become a single country.

Let's face it, we'll all be part of the USE soon anyway.

How about political union with Scotland and Wales. Get the whole united celtic republics thing going

WooPeeA

turgon wrote: »

How about political union with Scotland and Wales. Get the whole united celtic republics thing going

Today we should rather work for whole Europe working together than some groups of countries units.

LostinBlanch

eoin5 wrote: »

I know this question is being asked in a historical context but on a more present note I think we should be watching whats going on over there very closely. Our economic growth has slowed a lot but theyre really struggling now with their banks faltering. The council taxes are beginning to hurt people badly and they have serious social issues and crime problems too. The grass isnt greener over there at the moment.

Well you find Kevin Myers agreeing with you. Linky

Only fools -- which the British have really and truly been -- would allow unhindered access to their home by unlimited numbers of foreigners. And it is because of British folly, and the millions of non-Britons who now live in Briton, that I would end the common travel area between these islands. I would also, for the same reason, start convincing the unionist people that it makes sense that they come to terms with the rest of an island which wants them, as opposed to their retaining an unreturned affection for a neighbouring island that clearly doesn't.

Which might seem to place me in a very strange position indeed: quasi-shinnerdom. No, not really. Merely because the Shinners were pockmarked savages with the blood of thousands of innocents on their hands in the past, doesn't mean they're always wrong today. And on the future of Ireland, they're right. Moreover, you can hardly celebrate the wicked obscenity of 1916 today, as Fianna Fail and Fine Gael apparently do, and in the same breath celebrate the loss of sovereignty implicit in the current Eurination, as they also do.

I know he's a professional contrarian but that is some u turn. :eek:

mike65

It hard to treat the next door neighbour exactly like the guy down the street you have hardly seen, never mind talked to.

Britains kids are running around in our garden and our in thiers.

Mike.

Riddle101

DublinWriter wrote: »

It's very politically naive to paint the UK as the bogeyman when it comes to Northern Ireland.

The whole 'Brits Out' argument makes me laugh. The UK would have pulled out of the Province long ago if they had a free choice. The area has been a massive drain on the UK economy since the 1950's and was increasingly moreso after the commencement of the troubles.

If Britain pulled out of the North in the morning, what do you think 500,000+ Unionists would do? Wake up in the morning, rub the sleep from their eyes, and go "Jaysus Billy, sure we might as well give this whole Republican thing a go".

No they would not. There would be an all-out civil war up there that would make Kosovo look like a tea party. Meanwhile Westminster would look over at Dublin and say "That's your problem now, chaps".

Why do you think the Unionists would go to start a civil war just because the country they've been supporting since the time of the arrival left, did it ever occur to you that maybe the Unionists would feel betrayed by Britain for leaving them to their demise, i would think the Unionsts would be drawn to our side and count themselves lucky that we would stand by with open arms if that should happen.

BTW On the argument about whether the Unionist would join with us or want to form an independant state, well i doubt Northern Ireland is that strong enough to be able hold themselves together once Britain leaves them. They'll need support, maybe from us

mike65

You clearly have no great insight into the Unionist mind if you really think that.

Many would be very sullen unwilling guests at best, probably leave for England which is what NI nationalists would hope for anyway.

Mike.

dsmythy

Riddle101 wrote: »

Why do you think the Unionists would go to start a civil war just because the country they've been supporting since the time of the arrival left, did it ever occur to you that maybe the Unionists would feel betrayed by Britain for leaving them to their demise, i would think the Unionsts would be drawn to our side and count themselves lucky that we would stand by with open arms if that should happen.

BTW On the argument about whether the Unionist would join with us or want to form an independant state, well i doubt Northern Ireland is that strong enough to be able hold themselves together once Britain leaves them. They'll need support, maybe from us

They may feel betrayed but they may not see the Republic as the answer. Every country has to start somewhere and struggle through their early years. Kosovo and Montenegro have begun that journey of late.

Will they start some sort of civil war or will nationalists cause it by using the absence of the UK in the North to go for a union with the Republic against the will of the unionist community? Partition part two the answer? That tends not to end well.

Of course all this only counts if said abandonment happened today. By the time it might happen attitudes may have changed in all sorts of unforseen ways.

Bubs101

crip17 wrote: »

You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

You do realise that Pearse was British

darkman2

It is worth remembering that it is the policy of this country to pursue unification without British involvement. If NI tried to go independent, most likely, there would be ruptions from this country. It would lead to war. Under no circumstances would/should this country accept an independent NI under the control of people we will never trust. Its as simple as - the UK splits = United Ireland. This country would never accept an independent NI entity. I can see why going on not too distant history.

As for UK/Irish relationship - be freindly and all but remember there is unfinished business in Ireland. Thats how they and us see it. If the UK broe up tomorrow then many moderate Unionists would support a United Ireland. In effect a majority would support it as the most logical and reasonable step.


Its also worth noting how damaged Unionists would be in negotiating with us when the UK splits. They would have far more influence deciding now rather then waiting for the inevitable.

djpbarry

darkman2 wrote: »

Under no circumstances would/should this country accept an independent NI under the control of people we will never trust.

Who would they be? You don't think the people of NI have the right to elect whoever they please?

darkman2 wrote: »

Its as simple as - the UK splits = United Ireland. This country would never accept an independent NI entity.

This country wouldn't, or you wouldn't? Personally, I don't see any problems with an independent NI.

mike65

I think darkman2 over-estimates the interest/emotional attatchment of Free Staters with the oppressed peoples of the Occupied 6 Counties.

An independent NI (which will never happen for logistical reasons) woukld not bother many so long as it were run in a fashion recognisable as a West European democracy.

Mike.

El Stuntman

mike65 wrote: »

I think darkman2 over-estimates the interest/emotional attatchment of Free Staters with the oppressed peoples of the Occupied 6 Counties.

An independent NI (which will never happen for logistical reasons) woukld not bother many so long as it were run in a fashion recognisable as a West European democracy.

Mike.

very sensible post, I for one would be strongly against a United Ireland

purple'n'gold

If in the extremely unlikely event of Great Britain abandoning Northern Ireland and expelling it from the UK there are unionists who would never accept that situation. They abhor Catholicism with venom (it doesn’t matter about our new found secularism etc. they still regard us as a priest ridden society, and perception is always more important than fact.) and despise the republic for being responsible for breaking up the UK initially. They would have to be accommodated by resettlement in England or Scotland. We are talking about maybe 500,000 people here, and it would all have to be paid for. A massive upheaval for a country as small as Ireland.

djpbarry

purplengold wrote: »

They abhor Catholicism with venom...

That’s a bit of a sweeping statement, don’t you think? There are Unionist Catholics you know.

purplengold wrote: »

They would have to be accommodated by resettlement in England or Scotland.

Would they? Any hint of a break-up of the UK and every single Unionist will up and leave to England or Scotland, will they? They'll just readily abandon their homes just like that?

dsmythy

purplengold wrote: »

They would have to be accommodated by resettlement in England or Scotland. We are talking about maybe 500,000 people here, and it would all have to be paid for. A massive upheaval for a country as small as Ireland.

I don't think they would leave their homes and place where their ancestors have lived possibly for hundreds of years.

They could revive the old "A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people" even if it meant a redrawing of the border and a movement of people in both directions until the right balance is struck in the old traditions of European post-conflict "solutions".

DublinWriter

Bubs101 wrote: »

You do realise that Pearse was British

And there was me thinking he and his brother were born in Dublin.

Do you realise that Wolfe Tone, Roger Emmet, Roger Casement and James Connelly were all Protestant?

Bubs101

DublinWriter wrote: »

And there was me thinking he and his brother were born in Dublin.

And when he was born in DUblin it was part of the U.K. before which would make him British

all the stars

Hi...

Im for a happy Ireland... everyone can call themselves whatever they like once they aren't killing eachother.

We dont own this world anyway - it belongs no one. So what differance will it make.

All the old ways need to be forgotten/ left alone. It happened, it was awful for everyone involved but hopefullt its all over now and we can move forward.
I want a happy Ireland... Vote for me