So what type of relationship should Ireland have with Britain?

LordSutch

The part that remaines within the UK.

Latchy

turgon wrote: »

How about political union with Scotland and Wales. Get the whole united celtic republics thing going

That's assuming all the welsh and scottish want that kinda union, like we are going to be one big happy celtic family .The protestant section /traditionalists of that part of uk might not like the idea just as much as the unionist crowd in NI dont .

darkman2

ArthurF wrote: »

The part that remaines within the UK.

So now we find out Arthur F is in fact a Northern Unionist commenting on the 'Britishness' in Irish people south of the border. You probrably should have lied and said you were born here!;)

LordSutch

Do you disagree & deny everything that I said in Post#37 and Post#44.

ciaran2008

I don't think it makes a difference to be honest because at the end of the day we are all part of the EU which is increasingly becoming more and more like the US i.e the EU Parliament being Congress and each country being a state and it wont be too long until we have Governor Ahern/Cowen and Governor Brown so who cares?

leninbenjamin

FTA69 wrote: »

DublinWriter wrote: »

Nonsense. If the Brits had wanted to leave they would have left, simple as that, the same way they left Aden, Kenya and a raft of other places. They wouldn't have fought a 25 year dirty war and armed Loyalists if they were simply piggy in the middle between the mad Paddies. Personally I think it is much more politically naieve to buy into this notion that the Brits have no interest in this country at all considering 15% of their military intelligence budget concerns this country, as well as the fact they are building a massive MI5 headquarters in Ireland.

slight tangent here again, but i wonder does that hark back to the WWII and the vulnerability they felt through our neutrality? the only logical reason for maintaining a foothold in the country would surely be so as to give a platform to invade the entire Island from should we ever see a 'doomsday' scenario again like WWII.

CerebralCortex

ArthurF wrote: »

What I was eluding to in Post#37 was that the lines between being Irish & or British are/ have always been blurred ............

Geographically this island is just 22 miles away from our neighbouring island 'Britain' with tens of thousands (a million maybe)? people in Britain claiming Irish ancestry, & with one million Unionists on this island, & with many more with English, Scottish, or Welsh Surnames spread all over this island which is understandable given our proximity & cultural ties with the Big island next door.

But then I am a Unionist & I am Irish/ British too, so I suppose my ideas & relationship with the rest of the people in this little group of islands would be somewhat different when compared to an "Irish" Nationalist for example, who sees the "British" as some kind of negative foreign people who are to be disliked & who belong to the past when the island of Ireland is concerned.

You cant wash britishness out of our blood, its in there to stay, for good, no more so than many people in Britain can pretend that they are 'not Irish'.

No you can. I was born Irish. I'm usually I'm not very nationalist but on this I am. My surname is of anglo-norman origin but that is inconsequential to how I see my identity actually it makes me feel even less british tbh. "British" is a London construct to bind geographically and culturally different people together for their own gains to make them feel good when they're being f**ked over. There is no equality by its very nature in being british ever wonder why most of the countries surrounding england have populations barely 10% on average of england's. Imho britishness = servitude to the crown with no gain.
Wrt the origional post Britain should be threated like any other country in europe.

darkman2

ArthurF wrote: »

If you look at our history, it does seem that we have a somewhat confused identity regarding our Geography & National identity, and recently we have even left the british isles according to Dermot Ahearn (Twit) but at least we have joined the "Council of the Isles" which I presume is the British isles .

If you look at 'our' history you will quickly find that this country was oppressed by the country next door. You dont have to look to far to see the consequences of this. Just look at the population! It is simply a matter of fact that the reason this country's population is so low and sparse is a direct consequnce of British policy here through generations before 1921.


Also im intrigued to know how you can describe our foreign minister as a 'twit' for representing the views of the vast majority of the Irish people in this jurisdiction in relation to that term. Most people here dont use that term in every day language. I suppose you will now suggest that we are all twits for not using it? I suppose an attitude like that from a Northern Unionist is hardly supprising!

oscarBravo

Two points, darkman2: first, don't even think about using terms like "vast majority" unless you have reliable figures to back it up. Second, you're not long back from a ban; you should know better than to personalise the debate.

LordSutch

CerebralCortex wrote: »

"British" is a London construct to bind geographically and culturally different people together for their own gains to make them feel good when they're being f**ked over.

I never heard that one before.

CerebralCortex

ArthurF wrote: »

I never heard that one before.

That explains a lot.

oscarBravo

It does?

CerebralCortex

Well I suppose it does to me OscarBravo.

Kev_ps3

Well they do still rule over the north which is our land so I would say that until they give it back to us (or we take it back) then relations should not be as friendly as some people suggest.

leninbenjamin

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Well they do still rule over the north which is our land so I would say that until they give it back to us (or we take it back) then relations should not be as friendly as some people suggest.

no it isn't, it's the northerners land. that type of attitude is no different to those of the original colonisers. ultimately it should be the people of the north who decide their fate.

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Well they do still rule over the north which is our land so I would say that until they give it back to us (or we take it back) then relations should not be as friendly as some people suggest.

Oh so you are from the North Kev are you? One of the people up there is currently sitting in your house. That is a template for what the relationship for Ireland and Britain shouldn't be.

Kev_ps3

leninbenjamin wrote: »

no it isn't, it's the northerners land. that type of attitude is no different to those of the original colonisers. ultimately it should be the people of the north who decide their fate.

And who are these northerners? They are a mix of native Irish Catholics and Prodestant settlers who flooded this Island hundreds of years ago. Id say the native people have a better claim to the land then the immigrants no matter what their numbers are. Even more so since their intentions were to take their land and persecute the native people not intigrate and abide by the local laws and traditions.

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

....the local laws and traditions.

Those local laws and traditions are gone and are not coming back those that are there now are those who have been there long enough to call it their home. So we need to be sensitive to that and coexist.

Lemming

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

And who are these northerners? They are a mix of native Irish Catholics and Prodestant settlers who flooded this Island hundreds of years ago. Id say the native people have a better claim to the land then the immigrants no matter what their numbers are.

These settlers are still alive after all those hundreds of years? Damn!! Must get myself north and ask what their secret to extremely prolongued life is ...

djpbarry

Lemming wrote: »

These settlers are still alive after all those hundreds of years? Damn!! Must get myself north and ask what their secret to extremely prolongued life is ...

It would seem that Republican bigotry keeps them alive...

turgon

I think one of most ironic things of the northern question is that unionists do not want to join Ireland because of being scared of being trampled on. The reason they think this is because is the ignorant opinions of people like kev_ps3 when they are talking about getting it back.

Like kev_ps3, if you are talking about the northern unionists with such dis respect do you really think they will want to join the republic? A change of tactics would be in order.

ciaran2008

turgon wrote: »

I think one of most ironic things of the northern question is that unionists do not want to join Ireland because of being scared of being trampled on. The reason they think this is because is the ignorant opinions of people like kev_ps3 when they are talking about getting it back.

Like kev_ps3, if you are talking about the northern unionists with such dis respect do you really think they will want to join the republic? A change of tactics would be in order.

Totally agree with this statment! I live in area in the six counties with alot of political tension but I can't understand why it exists. I grew up with a republican view forced onto me and I still attend a Catholic school so I get the same there but after investigating the past myself and looking at it from both angles im now open to the concept of unionism and republicanism but to be honest I personally don't care whether we are governed from Stormont, The Dáil or Westminster as very little will change that can potentially effect our way of life.


Unfortunately its just a problem with no solution.

guinnessdrinker

Ireland and Britian should have a good relationship. Ireland and Great Britian are probably in a better relationship with each other now than at any time in history.

Fratton Fred

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Ireland and Britian should have a good relationship. Ireland and Great Britian are probably in a better relationship with each other now than at any time in history.

and, like it or not, there is an ever increasing number of Anglo/Irish people being born. These people will want a close relatonship between the two countries, whilst both maintaining their own unique identity.

LordSutch

Well said Guinness drinker & Fratton Fred, what you both say is very similar to what I said in Post#37 . . . (last three paragraphs)!

But I was then shot down in flames ............ :mad:

Erin Go Brath

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons.

The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this.

State sponsored collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British forces.

Mi5 have their hands all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This is obviously bound to make any rational Irish person seriously suspicous of our neighbours, and their role in our Country.

In fact Irelands history over the past few hundred years is littered with injustices perpetrated by the British Govt on Ireland. Britains reaction to the famine (or lack thereof) resulting in mass death in Ireland is clearly the biggest atrocity in terms of loss of life.

In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

El Stuntman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons.

The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this.

State sponsored collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British forces.

Mi5 have their hands all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This is obviously bound to make any rational Irish person seriously suspicous of our neighbours, and their role in our Country.

In fact Irelands history over the past few hundred years is littered with injustices perpetrated by the British Govt on Ireland. Britains reaction to the famine (or lack thereof) resulting in mass death in Ireland is clearly the biggest atrocity in terms of loss of life.

In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

but by the same token the British might also mention bombings in London by the PIRA, the IRA and the Fenians. Not to mention all of the attacks on NI launched from this side of the border and all of the Anglo-Irish murdered and burnt out of their homes in the Free State....you get the picture

the point is that the past is the past - if we don't look past that, nothing positive will ever transpire in relation to NI. Thankfully most people seem to be doing just that.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons.

The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this.

State sponsored collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British forces.

Mi5 have their hands all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This is obviously bound to make any rational Irish person seriously suspicous of our neighbours, and their role in our Country.

In fact Irelands history over the past few hundred years is littered with injustices perpetrated by the British Govt on Ireland. Britains reaction to the famine (or lack thereof) resulting in mass death in Ireland is clearly the biggest atrocity in terms of loss of life.

In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

all those west brit/unionists/anglophiles don't understand do they:rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

El Stuntman wrote: »

but by the same token the British might also mention bombings in London by the PIRA, the IRA and the Fenians. Not to mention all of the attacks on NI launched from this side of the border and all of the Anglo-Irish murdered and burnt out of their homes in the Free State....you get the picture

the point is that the past is the past - if we don't look past that, nothing positive will ever transpire in relation to NI. Thankfully most people seem to be doing just that.

You're not comparing like with like. The mi5 are an instrument of the British state, the PIRA were not supported by the Irish state, but roundly condemned for any atrocity they had their hand in. The British Govt colluded with loyalist terrorists, the Irish Govt havent colluded with anyone to bomb London or any other places in Britain.

My point being can we really trust the British state? The evidence would seem to suggest that we should at the very least be extremely wary of them.

LordSutch

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons. The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this. In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

Yeah yeah yeah the same old Rhubarb being trotted out hers "Six Counties" "our Nation" etc . . . whereas in reality the North is not part of "Your nation" its part of the United Kingdom of "Great Britain & Northern Ireland" as ratified in the 1998 Good friday Agreement!

The only way you will "Un occupy" the six counties is to exterminate the majority of people living there, then you will have your six counties back because there will be no one to argue with!

El Stuntman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

My point being can we really trust the British state? The evidence would seem to suggest that we should at the very least be extremely wary of them.

your argument is convincing to me

From this day forth, I shall no longer watch The Premiership or any UK TV channels. I shall refuse to play English sports or read English newspapers and magazines. No English music shall pass my ears. No English food or drink shall pass my lips. I will struggle relentlessly for the reunification of our island. I shall don the uniform of the oppressed Gael (a Celtic jersey) and speak only the tounge of our fathers (er, English)

Go raibh maith agat

a truly warped individual (you may have got that one right)

Erin Go Brath

ArthurF wrote: »

Yeah yeah yeah the same old Rhubarb being trotted out hers "Six Counties" "our Nation" etc . . . whereas in reality the North is not part of "Your nation" its part of the United Kingdom of "Great Britain & Northern Ireland" as ratified in the 1998 Good friday Agreement!

The only way you will "Un occupy" the six counties is to exterminate the majority of people living there, then you will have your six counties back because there will be no one to argue with!

Wrong! Actually, you'll find that the Nation of Ireland consists of 32 Counties. Perhaps you're getting confused between Nation and State.

Article 2 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN states

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Wrong! Actually, you'll find that the Nation of Ireland consists of 32 Counties. Perhaps you're getting confused between Nation and State.

I suspect it's yourself that's getting confused:

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

...the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction.

How can a nation have counties?

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Article 2 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN states

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

Let's see, my brother's an Irish citizen, and he lives in Dartford, and ZOMFG THE BRITS ARE OCCUPYING DARTFORD!

Erin Go Brath

El Stuntman wrote: »

your argument is convincing to me

From this day forth, I shall no longer watch The Premiership or any UK TV channels. I shall refuse to play English sports or read English newspapers and magazines. No English music shall pass my ears. No English food or drink shall pass my lips. I will struggle relentlessly for the reunification of our island. I shall don the uniform of the oppressed Gael (a Celtic jersey) and speak only the tounge of our fathers (er, English)

Go raibh maith agat

a truly warped individual (you may have got that one right)

Who's telling you to do any of the above?

All i did was point out some facts which you can't accept. Then, you proceed to go off on one. :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

I suspect it's yourself that's getting confused: How can a nation have counties? Let's see, my brother's an Irish citizen, and he lives in Dartford, and ZOMFG THE BRITS ARE OCCUPYING DARTFORD!

Its quite simple: The Irish Nation consists of 32 Counties. The Irish State consists of 26 Counties. People in the 6 Counties have the right to be Irish Nationals and hold an Irish Passport. Quite what this has to do with your brother in Dartford i'm not so sure

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its quite simple: The Irish Nation consists of 32 Counties. The Irish State consists of 26 Counties. People in the 6 Counties have the right to be Irish Nationals and hold an Irish Passport. Quite what this has to do with brother in Dartford i'm not so sure

Of course you're not sure, because wooly thinking is only acceptable when it allows you to see the world according to your own unique perspective.

A nation, by definition, consists of people. It doesn't consist of counties, unless you're trying to find a superficially plausible way to circumvent the democratically expressed will of the people when we voted - practically unanimously - to relinquish our claim on Northern Ireland.

El Stuntman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Then, you proceed to go off on one. :rolleyes:

no, I have seen the light. I must free my oppressed brethren (even the majority who don't want it) from the typranny of the perfidious English

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course you're not sure, because wooly thinking is only acceptable when it allows you to see the world according to your own unique perspective.

A nation, by definition, consists of people. It doesn't consist of counties, unless you're trying to find a superficially plausible way to circumvent the democratically expressed will of the people when we voted - practically unanimously - to relinquish our claim on Northern Ireland.

Ok, lets forget about Counties if it makes it easier for you. The Irish Nation consists of all the island of Ireland, including its islands and seas. Therefore anyone born on the island of Ireland is an Irish National should they so choose, and is entitled to an Irish Passport and Nationality.

Erin Go Brath

El Stuntman wrote: »

no, I have seen the light. I must free my oppressed brethren (even the majority who don't want it) from the typranny of the perfidious English

Grand so, off with you.

djpbarry

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

...anyone born on the island of Ireland is an Irish National should they so choose, and is entitled to an Irish Passport and Nationality.

Anyone born anywhere in the world is entitled to Irish citizenship if one of their parents or grandparents is an Irish citizen; islands and seas have nothing to do with it.

Erin Go Brath

djpbarry wrote: »

Anyone born anywhere in the world is entitled to Irish citizenship if one of their parents or grandparents is an Irish citizen; islands and seas have nothing to do with it.

I know sure even Tony Cascarino got an Irish Passport, and i'm sure if anyone from abroad knows Bertie Ahern, he can probably sort them out too, for a fee of course.

The argument is really one of Nation v State. The Nation covers all of this island, the state stops a bit North of Dundalk (at least until Unification anyway). Thats the point some people don't seem to comprehend.

LordSutch

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Ok, lets forget about Counties if it makes it easier for you. The Irish Nation consists of all the island of Ireland, including its islands and seas. Therefore anyone born on the island of Ireland is an Irish National should they so choose, and is entitled to an Irish Passport and Nationality.

Should they choose & Entitled . . . indeed they are, but if One Million people in Northern Ireland dont want an 'Irish' Passport because they are 'British' & hold British Passports then who are you to argue with that?

Our relationship with Britain is just fine, and getting better all the time thankfully, and if the North wishes to remain within the UK, then so be it.

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Ok, lets forget about Counties if it makes it easier for you. The Irish Nation consists of all the island of Ireland, including its islands and seas.

Right, because that's completely different from what you said before. Not.

The Irish Nation consists of people, and has nothing to do with islands. Unless you want to claim that my brother is less Irish than a northern Unionist, just because he doesn't live here?

CerebralCortex

turgon wrote: »

Tell me El Stuntman, are you a believer in democracy? Because you seem to be willing to ignore the will of the majority in the North because in your opinion what you think is better than them*. Which is dogmatic and by extension ignorant. Other examples of people with that thinking through history include Lenin and Stalin, under whose regime 1 person was murdered every 20 seconds. Your on the wrong side of the fence.


*Funny because the reason people originally fought for Irish Independence was disrespect for democracy.

I think he was being sarcastic.

turgon

How very embarresing

turgon

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I think he was being sarcastic.

Ha ha - never even said that

I feel much like Stalin - the great ability to erase history detrimental to me as a person....