So what type of relationship should Ireland have with Britain?

CerebralCortex

ArthurF wrote: »

I never heard that one before.

That explains a lot.

oscarBravo

It does?

CerebralCortex

Well I suppose it does to me OscarBravo.

Kev_ps3

Well they do still rule over the north which is our land so I would say that until they give it back to us (or we take it back) then relations should not be as friendly as some people suggest.

leninbenjamin

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Well they do still rule over the north which is our land so I would say that until they give it back to us (or we take it back) then relations should not be as friendly as some people suggest.

no it isn't, it's the northerners land. that type of attitude is no different to those of the original colonisers. ultimately it should be the people of the north who decide their fate.

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Well they do still rule over the north which is our land so I would say that until they give it back to us (or we take it back) then relations should not be as friendly as some people suggest.

Oh so you are from the North Kev are you? One of the people up there is currently sitting in your house. That is a template for what the relationship for Ireland and Britain shouldn't be.

Kev_ps3

leninbenjamin wrote: »

no it isn't, it's the northerners land. that type of attitude is no different to those of the original colonisers. ultimately it should be the people of the north who decide their fate.

And who are these northerners? They are a mix of native Irish Catholics and Prodestant settlers who flooded this Island hundreds of years ago. Id say the native people have a better claim to the land then the immigrants no matter what their numbers are. Even more so since their intentions were to take their land and persecute the native people not intigrate and abide by the local laws and traditions.

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

....the local laws and traditions.

Those local laws and traditions are gone and are not coming back those that are there now are those who have been there long enough to call it their home. So we need to be sensitive to that and coexist.

Lemming

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

And who are these northerners? They are a mix of native Irish Catholics and Prodestant settlers who flooded this Island hundreds of years ago. Id say the native people have a better claim to the land then the immigrants no matter what their numbers are.

These settlers are still alive after all those hundreds of years? Damn!! Must get myself north and ask what their secret to extremely prolongued life is ...

djpbarry

Lemming wrote: »

These settlers are still alive after all those hundreds of years? Damn!! Must get myself north and ask what their secret to extremely prolongued life is ...

It would seem that Republican bigotry keeps them alive...

turgon

I think one of most ironic things of the northern question is that unionists do not want to join Ireland because of being scared of being trampled on. The reason they think this is because is the ignorant opinions of people like kev_ps3 when they are talking about getting it back.

Like kev_ps3, if you are talking about the northern unionists with such dis respect do you really think they will want to join the republic? A change of tactics would be in order.

ciaran2008

turgon wrote: »

I think one of most ironic things of the northern question is that unionists do not want to join Ireland because of being scared of being trampled on. The reason they think this is because is the ignorant opinions of people like kev_ps3 when they are talking about getting it back.

Like kev_ps3, if you are talking about the northern unionists with such dis respect do you really think they will want to join the republic? A change of tactics would be in order.

Totally agree with this statment! I live in area in the six counties with alot of political tension but I can't understand why it exists. I grew up with a republican view forced onto me and I still attend a Catholic school so I get the same there but after investigating the past myself and looking at it from both angles im now open to the concept of unionism and republicanism but to be honest I personally don't care whether we are governed from Stormont, The Dáil or Westminster as very little will change that can potentially effect our way of life.


Unfortunately its just a problem with no solution.

guinnessdrinker

Ireland and Britian should have a good relationship. Ireland and Great Britian are probably in a better relationship with each other now than at any time in history.

Fratton Fred

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Ireland and Britian should have a good relationship. Ireland and Great Britian are probably in a better relationship with each other now than at any time in history.

and, like it or not, there is an ever increasing number of Anglo/Irish people being born. These people will want a close relatonship between the two countries, whilst both maintaining their own unique identity.

LordSutch

Well said Guinness drinker & Fratton Fred, what you both say is very similar to what I said in Post#37 . . . (last three paragraphs)!

But I was then shot down in flames ............ :mad:

Erin Go Brath

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons.

The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this.

State sponsored collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British forces.

Mi5 have their hands all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This is obviously bound to make any rational Irish person seriously suspicous of our neighbours, and their role in our Country.

In fact Irelands history over the past few hundred years is littered with injustices perpetrated by the British Govt on Ireland. Britains reaction to the famine (or lack thereof) resulting in mass death in Ireland is clearly the biggest atrocity in terms of loss of life.

In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

El Stuntman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons.

The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this.

State sponsored collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British forces.

Mi5 have their hands all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This is obviously bound to make any rational Irish person seriously suspicous of our neighbours, and their role in our Country.

In fact Irelands history over the past few hundred years is littered with injustices perpetrated by the British Govt on Ireland. Britains reaction to the famine (or lack thereof) resulting in mass death in Ireland is clearly the biggest atrocity in terms of loss of life.

In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

but by the same token the British might also mention bombings in London by the PIRA, the IRA and the Fenians. Not to mention all of the attacks on NI launched from this side of the border and all of the Anglo-Irish murdered and burnt out of their homes in the Free State....you get the picture

the point is that the past is the past - if we don't look past that, nothing positive will ever transpire in relation to NI. Thankfully most people seem to be doing just that.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons.

The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this.

State sponsored collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and British forces.

Mi5 have their hands all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This is obviously bound to make any rational Irish person seriously suspicous of our neighbours, and their role in our Country.

In fact Irelands history over the past few hundred years is littered with injustices perpetrated by the British Govt on Ireland. Britains reaction to the famine (or lack thereof) resulting in mass death in Ireland is clearly the biggest atrocity in terms of loss of life.

In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

all those west brit/unionists/anglophiles don't understand do they:rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

El Stuntman wrote: »

but by the same token the British might also mention bombings in London by the PIRA, the IRA and the Fenians. Not to mention all of the attacks on NI launched from this side of the border and all of the Anglo-Irish murdered and burnt out of their homes in the Free State....you get the picture

the point is that the past is the past - if we don't look past that, nothing positive will ever transpire in relation to NI. Thankfully most people seem to be doing just that.

You're not comparing like with like. The mi5 are an instrument of the British state, the PIRA were not supported by the Irish state, but roundly condemned for any atrocity they had their hand in. The British Govt colluded with loyalist terrorists, the Irish Govt havent colluded with anyone to bomb London or any other places in Britain.

My point being can we really trust the British state? The evidence would seem to suggest that we should at the very least be extremely wary of them.

LordSutch

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

On the surface anglo-irish relations seem great, but lets not kid ourselves relations are strained for a number of reasons. The main reason obviously is the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction. This will always get in the way of any perceived love-in with our neighbours across the water, until Unity occurs their will inevitably be friction because of this. In conclusion it is only the truly warped individual who regards England as a great friend to be trusted by the Irish people.

Yeah yeah yeah the same old Rhubarb being trotted out hers "Six Counties" "our Nation" etc . . . whereas in reality the North is not part of "Your nation" its part of the United Kingdom of "Great Britain & Northern Ireland" as ratified in the 1998 Good friday Agreement!

The only way you will "Un occupy" the six counties is to exterminate the majority of people living there, then you will have your six counties back because there will be no one to argue with!

El Stuntman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

My point being can we really trust the British state? The evidence would seem to suggest that we should at the very least be extremely wary of them.

your argument is convincing to me

From this day forth, I shall no longer watch The Premiership or any UK TV channels. I shall refuse to play English sports or read English newspapers and magazines. No English music shall pass my ears. No English food or drink shall pass my lips. I will struggle relentlessly for the reunification of our island. I shall don the uniform of the oppressed Gael (a Celtic jersey) and speak only the tounge of our fathers (er, English)

Go raibh maith agat

a truly warped individual (you may have got that one right)

Erin Go Brath

ArthurF wrote: »

Yeah yeah yeah the same old Rhubarb being trotted out hers "Six Counties" "our Nation" etc . . . whereas in reality the North is not part of "Your nation" its part of the United Kingdom of "Great Britain & Northern Ireland" as ratified in the 1998 Good friday Agreement!

The only way you will "Un occupy" the six counties is to exterminate the majority of people living there, then you will have your six counties back because there will be no one to argue with!

Wrong! Actually, you'll find that the Nation of Ireland consists of 32 Counties. Perhaps you're getting confused between Nation and State.

Article 2 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN states

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Wrong! Actually, you'll find that the Nation of Ireland consists of 32 Counties. Perhaps you're getting confused between Nation and State.

I suspect it's yourself that's getting confused:

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

...the 6 Counties of our Nation that are under British jurisdiction.

How can a nation have counties?

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Article 2 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN states

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

Let's see, my brother's an Irish citizen, and he lives in Dartford, and ZOMFG THE BRITS ARE OCCUPYING DARTFORD!

Erin Go Brath

El Stuntman wrote: »

your argument is convincing to me

From this day forth, I shall no longer watch The Premiership or any UK TV channels. I shall refuse to play English sports or read English newspapers and magazines. No English music shall pass my ears. No English food or drink shall pass my lips. I will struggle relentlessly for the reunification of our island. I shall don the uniform of the oppressed Gael (a Celtic jersey) and speak only the tounge of our fathers (er, English)

Go raibh maith agat

a truly warped individual (you may have got that one right)

Who's telling you to do any of the above?

All i did was point out some facts which you can't accept. Then, you proceed to go off on one. :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

I suspect it's yourself that's getting confused: How can a nation have counties? Let's see, my brother's an Irish citizen, and he lives in Dartford, and ZOMFG THE BRITS ARE OCCUPYING DARTFORD!

Its quite simple: The Irish Nation consists of 32 Counties. The Irish State consists of 26 Counties. People in the 6 Counties have the right to be Irish Nationals and hold an Irish Passport. Quite what this has to do with your brother in Dartford i'm not so sure

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its quite simple: The Irish Nation consists of 32 Counties. The Irish State consists of 26 Counties. People in the 6 Counties have the right to be Irish Nationals and hold an Irish Passport. Quite what this has to do with brother in Dartford i'm not so sure

Of course you're not sure, because wooly thinking is only acceptable when it allows you to see the world according to your own unique perspective.

A nation, by definition, consists of people. It doesn't consist of counties, unless you're trying to find a superficially plausible way to circumvent the democratically expressed will of the people when we voted - practically unanimously - to relinquish our claim on Northern Ireland.

El Stuntman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Then, you proceed to go off on one. :rolleyes:

no, I have seen the light. I must free my oppressed brethren (even the majority who don't want it) from the typranny of the perfidious English

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course you're not sure, because wooly thinking is only acceptable when it allows you to see the world according to your own unique perspective.

A nation, by definition, consists of people. It doesn't consist of counties, unless you're trying to find a superficially plausible way to circumvent the democratically expressed will of the people when we voted - practically unanimously - to relinquish our claim on Northern Ireland.

Ok, lets forget about Counties if it makes it easier for you. The Irish Nation consists of all the island of Ireland, including its islands and seas. Therefore anyone born on the island of Ireland is an Irish National should they so choose, and is entitled to an Irish Passport and Nationality.

Erin Go Brath

El Stuntman wrote: »

no, I have seen the light. I must free my oppressed brethren (even the majority who don't want it) from the typranny of the perfidious English

Grand so, off with you.

djpbarry

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

...anyone born on the island of Ireland is an Irish National should they so choose, and is entitled to an Irish Passport and Nationality.

Anyone born anywhere in the world is entitled to Irish citizenship if one of their parents or grandparents is an Irish citizen; islands and seas have nothing to do with it.