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Leaving Cert System - Idea(s)
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25-04-2008 8:14pm#1Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.
The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.
Some of the most creative and intelligent minds under achieve at secondary school because of teachers who teach purely towards the Leaving Cert, which is wrong.
I am blessed in that I have an English teacher who resembles more a College Professor and classes are full of discussion and pupils are allowed an opinion and to debate what he says.
I despise teachers who sit at the desk for 40 minutes and read from the book or hand out piles of notes, however, I understand it.
Perhaps a general knowledge (and I don't mean Britney Spears etc.) quiz amounting to say 20 points could be brought in on trial? Proper general knowledge questions about the government, literature etc.
Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.
Have you got any ideas on how to change the Leaving Cert course for the better?0
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look (sorry double post)
this thread has NO point,
its nice to discuss an alternative,
BUT we have a system that works, it may not be perfect, but it works for Ireland
I'd much prefer to have a system like the Alevels, but that wont happen any time soon, ID FECKIN LOVE to have four bigger subjects over the 8 that im doin now (my school makes you do 7 higher subjects and im doin OL math)0 -
Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.
That's why its fair.... People who weren't exactly blessed with an abundance of brain cells can have the exact same chance of doing as well as the "naturally intelligent" people, with a little motivation and hard work...
Intelligence and hard work= success in the leaving cert....
Some cop on and hard work = success in the leaving cert...0 -
it's grand as it is0
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Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.
The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.
Some of the most creative and intelligent minds under achieve at secondary school because of teachers who teach purely towards the Leaving Cert, which is wrong.
I am blessed in that I have an English teacher who resembles more a College Professor and classes are full of discussion and pupils are allowed an opinion and to debate what he says.
I despise teachers who sit at the desk for 40 minutes and read from the book or hand out piles of notes, however, I understand it.
Perhaps a general knowledge (and I don't mean Britney Spears etc.) quiz amounting to say 20 points could be brought in on trial? Proper general knowledge questions about the government, literature etc.
Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.
Have you got any ideas on how to change the Leaving Cert course for the better?
what course do you want to get into and where ???0 -
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It is/would be the most important subject for young people today actually.Why?
itd be a class no one wants to go to, you'd be made do it, itd be seen as a joke etc
Just because you probably treated it as a joke for the junior cert doesn't mean it's not as important as Maths or English or any Science subject.
Knowing how your country is run, about the environment and elections and politics is vital for students leaving school and is life experience.
Look at the ferore at the moment over the Lisbon Treaty!!!! More than half of the population don't even know what it consists of!!!!
Civics would be a great subject to have on for the Leaving Cert and certainly as important as any other subject currently on the course.0 -
Yes, ok, hard work etc.Fibonacci23 wrote: »That's why its fair.... People who weren't exactly blessed with an abundance of brain cells can have the exact same chance of doing as well as the "naturally intelligent" people, with a little motivation and hard work...
Intelligence and hard work= success in the leaving cert....
Some cop on and hard work = success in the leaving cert...
But, those who aren't naturally intelligent also find it very hard to study for 5 minutes, let alone an hour or two.
It should not be based just on learning off notes etc.0 -
It is/would be the most important subject for young people today actually.
Just because you probably treated it as a joke for the junior cert doesn't mean it's not as important as Maths or English or any Science subject.
Knowing how your country is run, about the environment and elections and politics is vital for students leaving school and is life experience.
Look at the ferore at the moment over the Lisbon Treaty!!!! More than half of the population don't even know what it consists of!!!!
Civics would be a great subject to have on for the Leaving Cert and certainly as important as any other subject currently on the course.
you're not getting my point, NO ONE would care. unless its an exam subject (which people would resent) and even then itd have the same respect as CSPE or religion (@JC level)
it doesnt have the same weight as another subject ie A in maths is infitely better than an an A in CSPE
and A in religion is even better than an A in CSPE
an A in foundation maths is a better achievement than an A in CSPE0 -
I'm in 5th year and have a few choices lined up which I'm confident I will get easily enough. I am an 'A' student but I despise all this learning off of notes etc.what course do you want to get into and where ???
So much of my time at school is wasted by writing out notes on pathetic Irish pros stories or doing maths problems I hope to never look at again once I leave school.0 -
Yes, I mean it should be an exam subject at LC level and of course an A in it would be just as important as an A in Maths.you're not getting my point, NO ONE would care. unless its an exam subject (which people would resent) and even then itd have the same respect as CSPE or religion (@JC level)
it does have the same weight as another subject and A in maths is infitely better than an an A in CSPE
No one subject is more important than another. However, honours maths is obviously harder than the rest on the LC course, it is not necessarily more important.
I would class english as more important than maths, as would I Civics, but that's not a subject on the course.0 -
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Yes, I mean it should be an exam subject at LC level and of course an A in it would be just as important as an A in Maths.
No one subject is more important than another. However, honours maths is obviously harder than the rest on the LC course, it is not necessarily more important.
I would class english as more important than maths, as would I Civics, but that's not a subject on the course.
people dont vote because they dont care, not because they dont know,
people wont care. maths is more important then civics.
its shouldnt be as important as maths, it would have to be a ''common level'' thing with a possible 40 points for the CAO i just dont see the point at all0 -
I'm in 5th year and have a few choices lined up which I'm confident I will get easily enough. I am an 'A' student but I despise all this learning off of notes etc.
So much of my time at school is wasted by writing out notes on pathetic Irish pros stories or doing maths problems I hope to never look at again once I leave school.
This is your opinion.... Your what, one out of the average annual 50,000 people who sit it? Not everyone thinks they're so "pathetic", or sees maths to be pointless....
Considering your giving you own opinion on what you find useless, don't forget that not everyone sees things the same way... I, for one, would find CSPE quite unappealling...0 -
Knowing how your country is run, about the environment and elections and politics is vital for students leaving school and is life experience.
Potential employers don't hire people on they're "life experience"! The Leaving Cert is a memory test, an exam to portray a person's ability at consuming and retaining information.... A good leaving cert means the person has put in the hours and commitment, which means they'll get a good college course, and therefore be able to withstand further commitment and motivation, and finally, degree in hand, employers want to know that you can learn easily and are willing to! A trip around the world and as much "life experience" doesn't qualify anyone for the working world...
Which at the end of the day is what the leaving cert is about.... It's not a stepping stone to get out of secondary school, you can leave before if you want, but for future employment, it's a necessity....0 -
Well I think that a system should be brought in whereby extra cirricular activities could count towards leaving cert points i.e. work with charity, exceptional recognition in sporting areas etc. Maybe not for all courses, but certainly sports accomplishments should be taken into account for say sports sciences/pe teaching. Previous recognised theatrical work could count towards points if you were to go for a course like drama/english lit. There are lots of other examples I'm sure. Whether this would work on an application or interview basis is another matter and this would be different to say scholarships offered by colleges.
Also last year UL offered bonuses on certain courses depending on what mark you got in higher level Maths. If you got A1, you got 100 plus a 20 point bonus, I think that each lesser grade got a 5 point deduction in bonus. That system of bonuses would go very well with certain subjects, I mean I could go off and do engineering if I had 4 A1 languages, history and religion, but what's the point. Wouldn't awarding bonuses to subjects that are relevant to the course help students that would be very interested and good at that course, say mechanical engineering, but wouldn't be able to get in because of poor marks in english, irish and their third language?
Well that's my rant over.:D0 -
CSPE would definatly be a good Leaving Cert subject. It would be so easy to get handy points. Got an A in the JC with no effort at all. Im sure a lot of people out there feel the same as well.0
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I think we shouldn't have all our exams within 2 weeks of eachother. They should be spread out over the two years, and done bits at a time. It would reduce the amount of stress on people soooooo much.0
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Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.
The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.
Perhaps a general knowledge (and I don't mean Britney Spears etc.) quiz amounting to say 20 points could be brought in on trial? Proper general knowledge questions about the government, literature etc.
Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.
1. General knowledge test - Wouldn't work! General knowledge test is a test for those who are well read in all things sport, music and literature. I t does however leave out those with higher intelligence in Maths or music or science, those who have neglected furthering their knowledge of the world around themfor the sake of say, um, studying for the leaving cert! A lot of people have no interest in trivia and forcing a test on such people would be unfair! Intelligence is not determined by how much random information you have accumulated! Intelligence is understanding concepts, learning skills, retaining necessary information
2. Civics - How do you propose a cspe exam for leaving cert. How would you possibly raise it to a level making it worthy of 100 cao points? Perhaps what you are suggesting is a law course because teaching common law is the only way I can see of making cspe a viable exam subject! To that I say no thank you! Many people would just resent having to do the subject
3. Retention test - Of course it is and that's a life skill. In the workforce your not going to be employed for a smug smartarse who sails by on the minimum effort possible. You need to learn to work and to retain facts in detail. For example as a doctor you would have a huge amount to learn and general knowledge about a broad range is not enough! To specialise you need in depth knowledge flowing from your fingertips! You don't a doctor who can tell you oh it looks like you're sick but I can't say exactly whats wrong!0 -
AceofSpades001 wrote: »Well I think that a system should be brought in whereby extra cirricular activities could count towards leaving cert points i.e. work with charity, exceptional recognition in sporting areas etc. Maybe not for all courses, but certainly sports accomplishments should be taken into account for say sports sciences/pe teaching. Previous recognised theatrical work could count towards points if you were to go for a course like drama/english lit. There are lots of other examples I'm sure. Whether this would work on an application or interview basis is another matter and this would be different to say scholarships offered by colleges.
This already existsto a certain extent. Students applying to the Drama and Theatre studies course in Trinity(which I believe no longer exists) had to attend an interview/workshop day to show their abilities. I'm a bit hazy on the details so feel free to correct me.
Students who apply for PE teaching in UL have to undergo a 'Movement Ability Test' ie show their are reasonably fit and have no fear of water (for swimming). If it was a case that students were awarded bonuses for sporting achievement you could create a two tiered system where students who are good at sport but don't have access to facilities, can't afford costs associated with sport, play for teams and clubs who are not successful while the individual is a good athlete could be denied places. I did teaching in UL and from my experience of PE students all of them were already active in sports clubs, athletics, played county level GAA etc. Same could be said for Drama. The system is fair as it stands.AceofSpades001 wrote: »Also last year UL offered bonuses on certain courses depending on what mark you got in higher level Maths. If you got A1, you got 100 plus a 20 point bonus, I think that each lesser grade got a 5 point deduction in bonus. That system of bonuses would go very well with certain subjects, I mean I could go off and do engineering if I had 4 A1 languages, history and religion, but what's the point. Wouldn't awarding bonuses to subjects that are relevant to the course help students that would be very interested and good at that course, say mechanical engineering, but wouldn't be able to get in because of poor marks in english, irish and their third language?
Well that's my rant over.:D
UL offer bonus points for all courses for HL Maths for grades A1 - C3 with 40 being awarded for A1 down to 5 for C3.
http://www.ul.ie/admissions/newprospectus/Undergraduate/general/admissions.shtml
You could do engineering with languages, history and religion but you would also have to have HL Maths or a high grade in OL and a science subject, which would show your aptitude for engineering anyway. Also the chances are that if you had picked predominantly arts subjects for leaving cert you wouldn't be applying for engineering in the first place. That's why colleges have minimum entry requirements for courses. Everybody else applying for engineering is in the same boat, so it evens out overall.0 -
Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.
The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.
Some of the most creative and intelligent minds under achieve at secondary school because of teachers who teach purely towards the Leaving Cert, which is wrong.
And if teachers didn't teach what was going to come up on the exam students would be whinging that their grades were suffering. In a perfect world everyone would be learning for fun. In the real world the leaving cert is a means to an end for many and knowing how to answer the questions on the exam is the way to move forward. While a good teacher will make their subject interesting while teaching what is on the exam, not all students see all subjects as interesting so you have students taking a subject for whom the subject is a necessary evil. For me it was Irish and English but I just got on with it because it had to be done. I wasn't interested in the poetry of Patrick Kavanagh, I just wanted to know how I could get through English and get a decent grade without it being complete torture
There are also subjects out there for the creative/practical types: Music, Art, Home Economics, Construction Studies, Engineering, Design and Communications Technology(Tech Drawing), Agricultural Science. All of those with the exception of Tech Drawing include some form of coursework/project/practical element where a student can show off their talents.Yes, I mean it should be an exam subject at LC level and of course an A in it would be just as important as an A in Maths.
No one subject is more important than another. However, honours maths is obviously harder than the rest on the LC course, it is not necessarily more important.
I would class english as more important than maths, as would I Civics, but that's not a subject on the course.
Is this not a contradiction in terms?0 -
I think it should be based more on university exams, by forcing you to demonstrate understanding and application rather than rote learning.
For example, in my university, it was obligatory that minimum 25% of all material on the paper was not covered in class and requires you to extrapolate from knowledge you already know.
I think the real problems the Leaving Certificate suffers from are instilled much earlier in the school system, back in Primary School where you learn how to recite times tables instead of multiply, etc.
Basically, too many people are prepared early in life for a system of role learning rather than a system of understanding. But if you think the Leaving Cert's a bad system, look at the A levels or French BAC to see how much worse it could be!0 -
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I'm kind of with the original poster. I do believe the Leaving stifles creativity by encouraging rote-learning. It may help you to get a job, but personally I'd rather be a well-rounded person than a desk-monkey! And I would love if there was some kind of CSPE-type subject on the Leaving syllabus. I do accept that it would be difficult to stretch it out to a proper Leaving Cert course, but a Political Science type course would be fantastic. It could incorporate the Irish governmental system/voting etc, but go deeper into the theoretical aspects of politics. Unless something like this already exists and I haven't heard about it...0
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Civilian_Target wrote: »
Basically, too many people are prepared early in life for a system of role learning rather than a system of understanding. But if you think the Leaving Cert's a bad system, look at the A levels or French BAC to see how much worse it could be!
i agree with you regarding the BAC but i think the the GCSE/A Level system is fantastic, not only do you get to specialise in 4 (rather than 8 in my case) but you do as many subjects as we do in the JC to higher standard (with an extra year). I think its such a better system0 -
BUT we have a system that works, it may not be perfect, but it works for Ireland
Easy to say if it worked for you - how about all those people who would make brilliant programmers, musicians, whatever, but didn't get the "points" because they couldn't write an essay in Spanish? Or how about those brilliant mechanics who miss out because they don't know how the growth of fascism was fuelled by WWI?
The system is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if a course has low points, people can get pressured into NOT taking it because it seems "lazy". On the other hand, for example medicine - some people who would make the best doctors in the world get turned away in favour of people who only took the course for the prestige, but just happen to be better at memorizing masses of pointless information...0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »Easy to say if it worked for you - how about all those people who would make brilliant programmers, musicians, whatever, but didn't get the "points" because they couldn't write an essay in Spanish? Or how about those brilliant mechanics who miss out because they don't know how the growth of fascism was fuelled by WWI?
The system is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if a course has low points, people can get pressured into NOT taking it because it seems "lazy". On the other hand, for example medicine - some people who would make the best doctors in the world get turned away in favour of people who only took the course for the prestige, but just happen to be better at memorizing masses of pointless information...
im not arguing that its a good system im arguing that its a functioning system, it hasnt worked for me im in 5th year.
if a person doesnt take a course with low points even though thats what they want to do, because it seems lazy, they are possibly the stupidest people EVER. i have never ever heard of someone not picking a course because of the points being TOO LOW! thats just idiocy.
i have a freind whos only taking medicine because of the prestige, he's mastered rote learning, he got 11 As in the JC and will get & in the LC (brother already did the same and his sister will too) do i think he'll make a good doctor, yes, yes i do, because if you can manage to get marks as high as that it does denote a practical ability at those subject eg Math, you cant really get an A by learning notes you need to be able to solve problems, same with languages, you can learn off an essay but you still have to interpret the question correctly0 -
A Levels make students specialise too early.
I mean one of the big problems in 3rd level at the moment is too much specialisation and the lack of a broad education.
The Leaving Cert is good because it makes students study a lot of different subjects rather than just the ones they're naturally good at ortake an interest in.
It produces less narrow minded people. Though, unfortunately, the points system, grinds and rote learning are destroying it somewhat.0 -
Yes, ok, hard work etc.
But, those who aren't naturally intelligent also find it very hard to study for 5 minutes, let alone an hour or two.
It should not be based just on learning off notes etc.
Okay; if you aren't going to learn for more than 5 minutes, why should you be allowed into college?0 -
The Leaving Cert has reduced learning to a soulless system of memorising and grinding (not as in taking grinds, but doing repetitive, simple tasks... the maths we do is mostly exercises, not problems that require original thought), with constant focus on the exams at the end.
If you want to do something in class that isn't directly related to how to answer questions on the leaving cert exam, then it isn't going to happen.
Unless of course you're either ahead in the course (as the case is for my maths class, we talk about planning maths trips to vegas a lot of the time), or have an "irresponsible" (that is to say, not doing their job right, where the job is to get good marks in the LC, not to encourage learning and thought) teacher, as is the case for one of the English classes in my school. They spend many classes arguing about things like abortion and Tibet, but they've got very little of the course done.
The Leaving Cert is good because it produces lots of interesting statistics the country can use to compare us, because it has reduced us to numbers attached to a piece of work we've produced over a 2, 3 hour time slot. The anynomity afforded by such a system is both good and bad. The objectivity protects us from teachers who, if asked to give us a grade, and for some reason hate us, can mark us down. However it also means that if for whatever reason, I perform poorly in an exam, the mark I get will not be able to take into account the countless other exams I've aced.
I think the most logical solution to the problem (and the stress, as we all know) is continuous assessment, or even just breaking the exams between fifth and sixth year. But of course, that's not as neat and easy for the government, and would cost too much and break the system that "works" (though how exactly the Leaving Cert fosters a love of knowledge I do not know), so it's not going to happen any time soon.
Personally, I'm lucky, because I'm good at "school". I'm an academic type, I'm good at understanding concepts, I love maths, basically I'm a nerd. I'm mediocre at best with sports. However, I'm not good at explaining things to people, and my personal touch is not commendable. I will admit, the Leaving Cert has gotten much better with acknowledging that there are different kinds of intelligences, but still I see girls in school who feel useless because they're terrible at Biology, or whatever. The Leaving Cert (established) makes them think that being good at academics is the most important thing, and if you can't do that, you're resigned to being "thick". However if given the chance, and the opportunity to find it, there's probably something they'd excel at, something which would fulfill them, make them feel worthwhile and useful.
As I said, it's getting better, if you've got a natural talent for Music, you can wing a lot of that paper with little study. Art is 67.5% based on practical work, though the fact of art history being so important means if you can't write an essay to save your life, you can't get a high grade. There are other practical subjects, but I don't know enough about them to comment. I'd like to see them more widespread and not just confined to vocational schools, but that's down to the individual school, I guess.
This is getting bleedin' long. I think the Leaving Cert works well in ways, the fact of the diverse subjects (though the necessity to do well in them to get into unrelated courses is debatable), the anonymity and standardisation.. sort of. But at the end of the day, I'm sick of going into school and hearing teachers say things like, "Well, yes what you said is technically correct, but you have to write it this way to get marks..." and "Well if we do these essays, you can learn them off and twist them to fit whatever title comes up on the exam", and etcetera.
An interesting essay which I just poorly paraphrased can be found here. I'm not sure I agree with it all, but it's a good read.
Also, in closing: I'd like to see some kind of CSPE subject for leaving cert. I was reading up about the Lisbon Treaty and jaysus if you think there isn't enough in Politics to constitute an entire leaving cert subject, you're well wrong. I think it's (Politics) a subject that gets proposed frequently enough though, and it'd certainly be an interesting one. Bias could be a problem in such a subject, though Religion I believe is handled quite neutrally.0 -
A Levels make students specialise too early.
I mean one of the big problems in 3rd level at the moment is too much specialisation and the lack of a broad education.
The Leaving Cert is good because it makes students study a lot of different subjects rather than just the ones they're naturally good at ortake an interest in.
It produces less narrow minded people. Though, unfortunately, the points system, grinds and rote learning are destroying it somewhat.
Completely agree. I was having this discussion just yesterday; the Irish education system will not make you a specialist in anything but it will give you the best range of skills; that you will need when you decide what you want to specialize in. Then its simply a matter of doing: usually through work experience.0 -
PurpleFistMixer wrote: »If you want to do something in class that isn't directly related to how to answer questions on the leaving cert exam, then it isn't going to happen.
Unless of course you're either ahead in the course (as the case is for my maths class, we talk about planning maths trips to vegas a lot of the time), or have an "irresponsible" (that is to say, not doing their job right, where the job is to get good marks in the LC, not to encourage learning and thought) teacher, as is the case for one of the English classes in my school. They spend many classes arguing about things like abortion and Tibet, but they've got very little of the course done.
So, you hate that you have to focus on your exams; but also hate it when a teacher brings you off topic for an existential debate? Make up your mind. To be fair there is plenty of time in life for existential debate; only 2 years to prepare you for being processed by the Leaving Cert.I perform poorly in an exam, the mark I get will not be able to take into account the countless other exams I've aced.
Which would have its own problems. Teachers issuing simple exams for one. Even in college: our continuous exams seem to be handed to us half the time. It does not reflect our knowledge of the skill much at all.I think the most logical solution to the problem (and the stress, as we all know) is continuous assessment, or even just breaking the exams between fifth and sixth year. But of course, that's not as neat and easy for the government, and would cost too much and break the system that "works" (though how exactly the Leaving Cert fosters a love of knowledge I do not know), so it's not going to happen any time soon.
Don't vocational schools already do this?Art is 67.5% based on practical work, though the fact of art history being so important means if you can't write an essay to save your life, you can't get a high grade. There are other practical subjects, but I don't know enough about them to comment. I'd like to see them more widespread and not just confined to vocational schools, but that's down to the individual school, I guess.
Have to agree with you there on the Art. However, its very uncommon in this country that a college course in Art will not have Art History in it. so it is important that you can do it.
Also if you really need the extra (30 points is it?) or B3 that comes with having a good Art History component; then you are aiming for a college course which will require those skills of you, anyway."Well, yes what you said is technically correct, but you have to write it this way to get marks..." and "Well if we do these essays, you can learn them off and twist them to fit whatever title comes up on the exam", and etcetera.
Sounds exactly like programming. In C++ theres usually about 3 or 4 different ways to do something. However, you are expected to never use most of those methods. For most reasons its because they tend to confuse the code (in the case of the 'goto' command especially... google that) or because the company you will be hired by will require a coding standard be adhered to: for example you have to name your vairables a certain way; because if you dont it just confuses the next person after you and that can lead to a lot of problems when you are making software, where 50 programmers all have to bring their code together into one project and have it all work in unison.
So imagine how hard it is for an examiner to have to correct 50 papers with 50 different "Standards" of how they cross their Ts dot their I's and make their 5s look like an S? You're told to do it one way because it promotes clarity.
And theres nothing wrong with learning Templates. They can be applied to oh so much.Also, in closing: I'd like to see some kind of CSPE subject for leaving cert. I was reading up about the Lisbon Treaty and jaysus if you think there isn't enough in Politics to constitute an entire leaving cert subject, you're well wrong. I think it's (Politics) a subject that gets proposed frequently enough though, and it'd certainly be an interesting one. Bias could be a problem in such a subject, though Religion I believe is handled quite neutrally.
Not unreasonable so long as its elective. However, the current state of the JC CSPE course is a complete and utter joke. However if you wish to go on and do political theory and education, please, come back and draft up a proper leaving cert CSPE course for everyone behind you.0 -
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Don't vocational schools already do this?
?? Whats that about??
Anyways jst throwing my cap into this debate...
I do think the leaving is too focused on academicness..(if thats a word!!) What Id like to see would be more "project" work... In my ideal leaving cert at least 25% of each subject would be done before the exam. I know you can do a project in Ag Science, Geography, Home Ec..im sure there's more but I dont know them. You also have you orals and practicals eg. in art and music. I'd love to have some bit of maths out of the way though before the LC and the same with english.0
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