BBC Journalist speaks the truth about violence in the US.

Manic Moran

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7359513.stm

I've noticed a few threads on here recently about some pretty incomprehensible acts in Ireland. Things that you read them and wonder "What's going wrong with the country?", varying from the shot-and-burned-in-the-home through gangs of joyriders tearing up streets and towns.

Similarly, I hang out on a few British websites, and they're thinking the same thing. There was a 55-year-old ex-serviceman beaten to death by four 18-year-olds for five pounds and sixty-five pence, their trial was this week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=561440&in_page_id=1770

Yet everyone points to the US and says "What a violent country! I'm glad we don't have that here!"

Well, this Op-Ed by the BBC's American correspondent addresses this point precisely, and I am pleased to link you to it as a "so there!"

Excerpts follow.

Despite the fact there are more than 200 million guns in circulation, there is a certain tranquility and civility about American life
<snip>
Brits arriving in New York, hoping to avoid being slaughtered on day one of their shopping mission to Manhattan are, by day two, beginning to wonder what all the fuss was about. By day three they have had had the scales lifted from their eyes.

I have met incredulous British tourists who have been shocked to the core by the peacefulness of the place, the lack of the violent undercurrent so ubiquitous in British cities, even British market towns.
<snip>
Wait till you get to London Texas, or Glasgow Montana, or Oxford Mississippi or Virgin Utah, for that matter, where every household is required by local ordinance to possess a gun.

Folks will have guns in all of these places and if you break into their homes they will probably kill you.

They will occasionally kill each other in anger or by mistake, but you never feel as unsafe as you can feel in south London.

It is a paradox. Along with the guns there is a tranquillity and civility about American life of which most British people can only dream.
<snip>

What surprises the British tourists is that, in areas of the US that look and feel like suburban Britain, there is simply less crime and much less violent crime.

Just thought I'd make you all feel better.

NTM

mike65

and 1% of the adult US population is locked up in one sort of jail or another.

Mike.

cozmik

mike65 wrote: »

and 1% of the adult US population is locked up in one sort of jail or another.

Mike.

U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations

Published: April 23, 2008

The United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners.

Indeed, the United States leads the world in producing prisoners, a reflection of a relatively recent and now entirely distinctive American approach to crime and punishment. Americans are locked up for crimes — from writing bad checks to using drugs — that would rarely produce prison sentences in other countries. And in particular they are kept incarcerated far longer than prisoners in other nations.

Criminologists and legal scholars in other industrialized nations say they are mystified and appalled by the number and length of American prison sentences.

...

There is little question that the high incarceration rate here has helped drive down crime, though there is debate about how much.

Criminologists and legal experts here and abroad point to a tangle of factors to explain America's extraordinary incarceration rate: higher levels of violent crime, harsher sentencing laws, a legacy of racial turmoil, a special fervor in combating illegal drugs, the American temperament, and the lack of a social safety net. Even democracy plays a role, as judges — many of whom are elected, another American anomaly — yield to populist demands for tough justice.

...

"Far from serving as a model for the world, contemporary America is viewed with horror," James Whitman, a specialist in comparative law at Yale, wrote last year in Social Research. "Certainly there are no European governments sending delegations to learn from us about how to manage prisons."

...

the American incarceration rate has made the United States "a rogue state, a country that has made a decision not to follow what is a normal Western approach."

...

"The assault rate in New York and London is not that much different," said Marc Mauer, the executive director of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group. "But if you look at the murder rate, particularly with firearms, it's much higher."

Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in the United States, it is still about four times that of many nations in Western Europe.

...

"America is a comparatively tough place, which puts a strong emphasis on individual responsibility," Whitman of Yale wrote. "That attitude has shown up in the American criminal justice of the last 30 years."


...

"As one might expect, a good case can be made that fewer Americans are now being victimized" thanks to the tougher crime policies, Paul Cassell, an authority on sentencing and a former federal judge, wrote in The Stanford Law Review.


...

Several specialists here and abroad pointed to a surprising explanation for the high incarceration rate in the United States: democracy.

Most state court judges and prosecutors in the United States are elected and are therefore sensitive to a public that is, according to opinion polls, generally in favor of tough crime policies. In the rest of the world, criminal justice professionals tend to be civil servants who are insulated from popular demands for tough sentencing.

Whitman, who has studied Tocqueville's work on American penitentiaries, was asked what accounted for America's booming prison population.

"Unfortunately, a lot of the answer is democracy — just what Tocqueville was talking about," he said. "We have a highly politicized criminal justice system."




http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/23/america/23prison.php

Latchy

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've noticed a few threads on here recently about some pretty incomprehensible acts in Ireland. Things that you read them and wonder "What's going wrong with the country?", varying from the shot-and-burned-in-the-home through gangs of joyriders tearing up streets and towns.

Similarly, I hang out on a few British websites, and they're thinking the same thing. There was a 55-year-old ex-serviceman beaten to death by four 18-year-olds for five pounds and sixty-five pence, their trial was this week.

then their is the recent deaths of the young goth teen and father of 4 gary newbon ,both from the north of england ,both kicked to death by the same type of scum that killed that ex-serviceman

.Add another 25 similar murders in last year or so in uk by same kind of scum ( calling them scum is putting it mildly ) not to mention the serious common assults , and you have the bones of what is out there . The wife of gary newbon has being campaigning to have more severe punishments and to make parents more accountable for their childrens behaviour .Everybody is saying how all over uk feral youths have taken over our neighbourhoods .Thing is nobody is joking anymore . The kids gloves have to and will come off eventualy

Sand

I am amused by the stats on prisoners/convictions being waved around like its a bad thing.

Should criminals remain unconvicted and free on the streets in a perfect world? Perhaps the US law enforcement agencies are simply better at detecting and solving crimes? Hence the prison population being high is reflective of their good work?

LostinBlanch

Sand wrote: »

I am amused by the stats on prisoners/convictions being waved around like its a bad thing.

Should criminals remain unconvicted and free on the streets in a perfect world? Perhaps the US law enforcement agencies are simply better at detecting and solving crimes? Hence the prison population being high is reflective of their good work?

And just to bring things a little closer to home. Look at what the CSO says about the Gardai massaging crime figures. Now who'd a thunk it? :rolleyes:

Victor

I think distinctions need to be made. Tourists don't go to high crime areas, so of course tourists in midtown and lower Manhattan aren't mugged as soon as they step out of their hotel. Tourists don't go to the crime blackspots in NY, LA or Chicago.

Sand, I would love for every crime to be solved. However, I would much prefer if the crime didn't happen in the first place. Be proactive, not reactive. Just like many other places, part of the American social system has profoundly failed. Break the cycles of juvenile delinquency and people living in a cycle of crime and things will be better for everyone.

Imagine expanding your market for 48 inch TVS by 20% while theft of said items drops 50%. The current criminal justice system is so free market that it is anti-capitalist.

Manic Moran

I think distinctions need to be made. Tourists don't go to high crime areas, so of course tourists in midtown and lower Manhattan aren't mugged as soon as they step out of their hotel. Tourists don't go to the crime blackspots in NY, LA or Chicago.

On the other hand, as the guy points out, if one stays outside of notably violent areas, things can be extremely quiet. But who here has not seen a crowd of drunken youths being a little disorderly in Temple Bar or O' Connell St? When was the last time you saw such in Mid-Town Manhattan?

NTM

Sand

Id have to second that - I walk up the quays from work most days and there is usually a gang of junkies/drunks having a screaming match and/or vomitting on Custom House quay or further up on the Liffey boardwalk. Further up a Halfpenny Bridge entrace to Temple Bar theres another gathering spot for drunks/junkies to welcome our tourists. This is middle of the afternoon. It only gets worse as it gets later.

None of it would do anything to reassure tourists as to their safety in Dublins touristy areas. Irish people have just grown used to it.

Sand, I would love for every crime to be solved. However, I would much prefer if the crime didn't happen in the first place. Be proactive, not reactive. Just like many other places, part of the American social system has profoundly failed. Break the cycles of juvenile delinquency and people living in a cycle of crime and things will be better for everyone.

So would I, but crime does occur, always has and probably always will. Given that the realistic option is to detect, investigate and convict criminals with suitable sentences reflecting the damage to the victim and the need to protect the public. Its not realistic to say "I wish crime didnt happen, so I condemn measures taken to punish crime that does occur".

The US has a high prison population but that doesnt appear to be a problem to me - high detection, and no revolving door policy on prison sentences will lead to a higher prison population than countries where crimes are barely investigated and sentences are routinely insulting to the victims experience. I mean, the Irish catholic church didnt have a paedophile priest problem in the 70s and 80s going by the numbers of paedophile priests that were arrested and convicted in Ireland during that time.

lostexpectation

Manic Moran wrote: »

On the other hand, as the guy points out, if one stays outside of notably violent areas, things can be extremely quiet. But who here has not seen a crowd of drunken youths being a little disorderly in Temple Bar or O' Connell St? When was the last time you saw such in Mid-Town Manhattan?

NTM

on a saturday night would it be different in the nightlife districts of new york?

where do young people go to hang out in new york, your talking about middle class 18-21 yrs olds but where would they be in new york on saturday night(with no drinking pre 21?)

Manic Moran

lostexpectation wrote: »

on a saturday night would it be different in the nightlife districts of new york?

where do young people go to hang out in new york, your talking about middle class 18-21 yrs olds but where would they be in new york on saturday night(with no drinking pre 21?)

I'm sure a lot of them 18-21 end up getting drunk anyway. I think the difference is in what happens after the 18-21-year-old gets drunk.

In Ireland and the UK, it seems that standard procedure is for his friends and colleagues to join him in a state of mass inebriation and then roam the streets. On the other hand, in the US, he's more likely to be taken care of by his mates, and they'll take him off the street in relatively short order. If they fail to do so, there's an excellent chance that they're done in by the constabulary for public intoxication and taken off the street anyway.

NTM

sovtek

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of them 18-21 end up getting drunk anyway. I think the difference is in what happens after the 18-21-year-old gets drunk.

In Ireland and the UK, it seems that standard procedure is for his friends and colleagues to join him in a state of mass inebriation and then roam the streets. On the other hand, in the US, he's more likely to be taken care of by his mates, and they'll take him off the street in relatively short order. If they fail to do so, there's an excellent chance that they're done in by the constabulary for public intoxication and taken off the street anyway.

NTM

I'd much rather have drunken louts and petty crime than serious violent crime like that of America.
It's all relative in the end. The murder rate per capita (last time I looked) is much higher than here.
The story of the family being burned is just about a daily occurence on the news "back home".
Maybe there is something to take away from the differences in typical American drinking laws and here.
While the drinking age is higher (and enforced to a ridiculous degree IMHO) there is more lax laws when it comes to where you can buy alcohol, it's tax rate, it's price, and drinking hours. Maybe that's why there isn't the same problem with drink in America that there is in Ireland. Whatever it's comparing two different types of anti social behavior.
At the end of the day statistically America is a more dangerous place than here and they put more people away for longer. Looks like what NOT to do eh?

fly_agaric

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've noticed a few threads on here recently about some pretty incomprehensible acts in Ireland. Things that you read them and wonder "What's going wrong with the country?", varying from the shot-and-burned-in-the-home through gangs of joyriders tearing up streets and towns.

Similarly, I hang out on a few British websites, and they're thinking the same thing. There was a 55-year-old ex-serviceman beaten to death by four 18-year-olds for five pounds and sixty-five pence, their trial was this week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=561440&in_page_id=1770

Whatever about what appears in the news from day to day, the US and the UK both have more violent societies than Ireland.
Don't worry, as everyone knows we're doing our level best to emulate all of their mistakes and I'm sure we'll catch up...

dave2pvd

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of them 18-21 end up getting drunk anyway. I think the difference is in what happens after the 18-21-year-old gets drunk.

In Ireland and the UK, it seems that standard procedure is for his friends and colleagues to join him in a state of mass inebriation and then roam the streets. On the other hand, in the US, he's more likely to be taken care of by his mates, and they'll take him off the street in relatively short order. If they fail to do so, there's an excellent chance that they're done in by the constabulary for public intoxication and taken off the street anyway.

NTM

+1

Roaming gangs of trouble-oriented drunks just aren't tolerated in the US. There are a lot more police on the ground in my experience. One would be invited to "come sleep it off".

Despite what others have posted with murder 'stats', violent crime comments, etc., on the whole, US cities do feel a lot safer than Dublin or London. Keep in mind that a lot of the US crime and prison stats are fueled by a bad gang/drugs problem. While that may mean that your car may get broken into by some crackhead looking to fence your stereo for $10, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are more likely to get shot than you are in Dublin. Unless you are part of the gang/drugs equation.

Prison sentencing here can be tough. Unfair, even. You see a lot stricter bail and prison terms than in Ireland. I have to admit though, some of Ireland's sentencing is awfully lenient. Especially bail - might as well hand the 'accused' a ticket for the ferry.

djpbarry

dave2pvd wrote: »

Roaming gangs of trouble-oriented drunks just aren't tolerated in the US. There are a lot more police on the ground in my experience. One would be invited to "come sleep it off".

If only they expended as much effort in keeping guns off the streets...

dave2pvd wrote: »

Despite what others have posted with murder 'stats', violent crime comments, etc., on the whole, US cities do feel a lot safer than Dublin or London.

You've obviously never wandered the streets of Philadelphia or DC at night. You're being very selective in your observations. I've lived between London and Dublin most of my life and, thankfully, I've never encountered any violent crime, even though I grew up in a council house in Drimnagh.

dave2pvd wrote: »

Keep in mind that a lot of the US crime and prison stats are fueled by a bad gang/drugs problem.

There are more prisoners held in US prisons for property-related crimes (e.g. breaking and entering) than there are for drug-related crimes.

dave2pvd wrote: »

While that may mean that your car may get broken into by some crackhead looking to fence your stereo for $10, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are more likely to get shot than you are in Dublin.

What are you basing that on? The murder rate in the US is far higher than it is in Ireland. Not to mention that a large chunk of the murders that take place in Ireland are gang-related and have nothing to do with the drink culture here.

RedPlanet

dave2pvd wrote: »

Roaming gangs of trouble-oriented drunks just aren't tolerated in the US. There are a lot more police on the ground in my experience. One would be invited to "come sleep it off".

That's not true.
You haven't spent any time in any ghettos then.

BurnsCarpenter

RedPlanet wrote: »

That's not true.
You haven't spent any time in any ghettos then.

True that. Most big cities will have some seriously dodgy areas.
On balance though, I'd agree with the OP. There just isn't the same threat of violence over there.
The scobie/chav movement is truely a British Isles phenomenon.

RedPlanet

It's possible that USA has that appearance.
But i suspect the statics show that per capita, USA suffers a higher violent crime rate.
I suppose the author of the article didn't realise that USA is just better at keeping their scum in isolated ghettos then we are over here.

djpbarry

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

On balance though, I'd agree with the OP. There just isn't the same threat of violence over there.

I'm not sure where this rosy image of US cities has come from. Taking New York City as an example; according to US Bureau of Justice Statistics (2004), there were 687.4 violent crimes committed per 100,000 inhabitants. That compares with 252 per 100,000 in Ireland (according to the Garda Síochána annual report, 2006), although there may be some ambiguity in what is defined as a violent crime. In fact, according to the WHO, Ireland is the safest country in Europe.

r3nu4l

Sand wrote: »

I am amused by the stats on prisoners/convictions being waved around like its a bad thing.

Should criminals remain unconvicted and free on the streets in a perfect world? Perhaps the US law enforcement agencies are simply better at detecting and solving crimes? Hence the prison population being high is reflective of their good work?

Let's also not forget that many US states operate a '3-strikes-and-your-out' policy where a third conviction means prison. No donation to the poor box, no wheedling about an underprivileged lifestyle will save you, go directly to jail, do not pass go... While I don't necessarily agree with that, it does mean that far more adults are going to end up in jail and many people who would otherwise be repeat offenders are more careful about when they decide to commit a crime.

Manic Moran wrote: »

On the other hand, as the guy points out, if one stays outside of notably violent areas, things can be extremely quiet. But who here has not seen a crowd of drunken youths being a little disorderly in Temple Bar or O' Connell St? When was the last time you saw such in Mid-Town Manhattan?

NTM

Yep, maybe not midtown manhattan but in some of the boroughs of NY you'll find gangs roaming around intimidating people and committing some sort of offence.

RedPlanet wrote: »

It's possible that USA has that appearance.
But i suspect the statics show that per capita, USA suffers a higher violent crime rate.
I suppose the author of the article didn't realise that USA is just better at keeping their scum in isolated ghettos then we are over here.

Exactly.

That said, I don't believe that the US is the hellhole that the media often try to present it as. I've felt perfectly safe in New York and only a little apprehensive in Clearwater, FL because I was afraid of being offered a 'free personality test' by any one of the hordes of scientologists in Clearwater

However, I do think that Manic Moran is simply hoping that this thread will 'prove' some of his sentiments about gun ownership and crime. I'm sure if guns were made legal for all households in Ireland there would be 'problems' within hours of the law being passed.

BurnsCarpenter

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure where this rosy image of US cities has come from.

That's just personal experience. I've been in a fair few towns and cities across North America and I've never encountered any random hassle. Much more likely to get that here IMO.

RedPlanet

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

That's just personal experience. I've been in a fair few towns and cities across North America and I've never encountered any random hassle. Much more likely to get that here IMO.

What's "random hassle"?
I'd been asked for the time by random strangers on numerous occasions in that hellhole. Almost never been asked here.

Was in San Francisco, recently, stayed in Union Square, in a really nice hotel.

about 3 blocks down in the Tenderloin district, the roughest kip of a place,
made the mistake of walking there at night, full of gougers, fellas selling drugs openly on the street corners, (as the cops walked by), homesess people out of their heads on drink/drugs.

Seriously dangerous district really close to one of the best areas of SF.

djpbarry

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

I've been in a fair few towns and cities across North America and I've never encountered any random hassle. Much more likely to get that here IMO.

What is "random hassle"? The only hassle I generally get in Dublin is "homeless" people asking for change, but I have experienced that in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Baltimore, Buffalo, San Francisco... well, pretty much any American city I've been to.

BurnsCarpenter

djpbarry wrote: »

What is "random hassle"? The only hassle I generally get in Dublin is "homeless" people asking for change, but I have experienced that in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Baltimore, Buffalo, San Francisco... well, pretty much any American city I've been to.

By random hassle I mean verbal abuse or physical abuse from strangers. Threatening behaviour in general.
I certainly don't mean getting asked for change. San Francisco would lead the way there I reckon.

Maybe you're more likely to get chopped up by a serial killer in the US, but in my experience you're more likely to encounter violence in Irish towns and cities.

BurnsCarpenter

Is 'hassle' in that sense a Cork expression or something?

CPT. SURF

The US has a high prison population but that doesnt appear to be a problem to me - high detection, and no revolving door policy on prison sentences will lead to a higher prison population than countries where crimes are barely investigated and sentences are routinely insulting to the victims experience.

It is a problem actually. US prisons are overstretched. They are full of potsmokers and other drug users. Sentences for serious offenders are often cut so that there will always be enough room for everyone.

Also, safety for prisoners from violence and rape in US prisons and jails is a HUGE problem. It is borderline third world stuff, no joke.

Thirdly, the rate of return to incarceration is very high in the US. Many start out in the system at the juvenile level and go in and out of jail their entire lives. Suggesting the the system is not working very well.

Just my thoughts, I live in the US. My local county jail is always over full and understaffed by the way.

Manic Moran

I do think that Manic Moran is simply hoping that this thread will 'prove' some of his sentiments about gun ownership and crime.

I just thought it was an interesting counterpoint to the 'violent society' arguments.

NTM

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of them 18-21 end up getting drunk anyway. I think the difference is in what happens after the 18-21-year-old gets drunk.

In Ireland and the UK, it seems that standard procedure is for his friends and colleagues to join him in a state of mass inebriation and then roam the streets. On the other hand, in the US, he's more likely to be taken care of by his mates, and they'll take him off the street in relatively short order. If they fail to do so, there's an excellent chance that they're done in by the constabulary for public intoxication and taken off the street anyway.

NTM

eh?

I was 15 when i had my first drink. In suburbia most kids have tried out drink and drugs from an early age and almost always inside of someone's home: more often without the knowledge of the owner than not. But lots of parents are quite accomodating about doing things in the home - encouraging them to at least do it there where it can be monitored than out somewhere thta you can be up to hell knows what.

r3nu4l

Manic Moran wrote: »

I just thought it was an interesting counterpoint to the 'violent society' arguments.

NTM

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you, it was just an observation really and it does show that guns do not necessarily lead to crime...

dave2pvd

djpbarry wrote: »

If only they expended as much effort in keeping guns off the streets...
You've obviously never wandered the streets of Philadelphia or DC at night. You're being very selective in your observations. I've lived between London and Dublin most of my life and, thankfully, I've never encountered any violent crime, even though I grew up in a council house in Drimnagh.
There are more prisoners held in US prisons for property-related crimes (e.g. breaking and entering) than there are for drug-related crimes.
What are you basing that on? The murder rate in the US is far higher than it is in Ireland. Not to mention that a large chunk of the murders that take place in Ireland are gang-related and have nothing to do with the drink culture here.

I've been away from this thread for a while. Let me respond:

I ought to be less selective, you're right. My perspective was from a 'night out on the town'. Comparing, for example, Temple Bar at midnight to any bar area in the US I have frequented. The article is about perceptions of the US from a tourist's perspective..........

Re property-related crimes in the US: a whole lot of those are crack-related. My insight comes from local crime reports where I live. We have a growing problem with crackheads trying to find items to sell, whether from inside your house or inside your car. Sadly, quite a lot of the perps are homeless. This city (Atlanta) has a rather large homeless population. Since Katrina it has approx doubled.