Locked in a celler for 24 years and abused.

Pigletlover

Papillon87 wrote: »

Absolutely depraved.

But absolutely the wife knew. How were 7 children delivered in her basement without her knowing? How did she never hear the crying of seven babies? How were serious questions not raised by authorities and neighbours when random babies were being dropped on their doorstep? If a child appears outside your door, you contact the police first and foremost.

The wife knowingly let this go on for 24 years. That is equally as disgusting.

I thought the same, but psychologists who watched the reuinion say that she genuinely didn't know a thing. It is strange that the authorities didn't query three babies being being dropped off on their grandparents doorstep, but the father had said that basically she turned crazy and had run off with some religious cult, so maybe they didn't feel the need to investigate.

marco murphy

Imagine he died while the captives where inside. Only he knew the code.

Also, this is interesting and true. Wonder what the children feel now.

"Potentially, the children could have led tolerably rich social lives - there were four people there, at least three of them for a long period of time. This isn't a story about a child being locked in a closet all by himself," he told the BBC News website.

He said that in terms of the five-year-old, he would have been unlikely to have known what he was missing.

"As a youngster, your immediate environment is your whole world," he says.

carveone

Stark wrote: »

Isn't that what they do in America

Yeah, it was a deliberately leading statement. You could set him free; that might be worse...

The question I have regarding the mother is: Did she ever report her daughter as missing? They also said 3 of the kids were staying with the grandparents. Did anyone ever question where those kids came from?

This guy was apparantly really smart. He'd reported her missing, filled out missing person reports and all. He forced her to write letters saying that the kids were hers, she couldn't look after them, and she was leaving them on the doorstep in their care (the grandparents referred to is this guy and his wife of course).

People wonder how the basement could have been furbished like it was without the wife knowing. This was all done over decades - he was building it for 6 years before she went in there. The guy had secret entrances behind a bookcase. It's totally bizarre.

The_B_Man

ye, hopefully that 5yr old can get back to normality, and not turn out like the ginger fella from The Burbs!

So it was an apartment block? I thought it was a house. That makes it more feasible so. although, surely the landlord would have visited the cellar once in them 24 years and noticed its shrunk to half the size.

Dudess

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Not forgetting that Hitler fella. He was mad Ted, mad altogether! (and from an inbred background)

Yeah, found that out recently. Interesting.

In the first few hours a rather cnuty prankster could have acquired an army costume and sewed a small USSR flag into it I guess, and proclaimed that she had survived the nuke war in which the Russkies won.

Lol, like that movie Goodbye Lenin.

industria wrote: »

Its a good job Shannon Mathews was found - Imagine finding her in 24 years with 7 kids who look just like her :eek:

Yawn. A girl isn't good looking - who cares about the fact that her life is terrible? Let's tear her to shreds for not being good-looking!

The_B_Man wrote: »

ye, hopefully that 5yr old can get back to normality, and not turn out like the ginger fella from The Burbs!

I wonder how old is too late?

Reminds me of that book Flowers in the Attic - it used to give me nightmares. This is much, much, much worse though.

Papillon87

carveone wrote: »

One tend to ask the same question but remember that they lived on the top floor, there were two apartments below them and the basement was underground. The guy (hard not to drop into swearing so I'll just say "guy") had all the walls lined with rubber sheets.
What's worse is that this guy started building the basement, presumably with this in mind, in 1978!

I'd sentence him to public hanging and then wouldn't carry it out (not that you'd be allowed anyway). Let him live the rest of his life in jail wondering what the morning would bring...

Ooh didn't know it was that far underground. Thanks.

It's still weird about the wife though!

seraphimvc

more news:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3842886.ece

apparently they each have a personal shrink now.take ages to recover or never i say.

something like extreme female version of the book The Count of Monte Cristo...

Lobster

I hope this is the last time we see this happening but probaly not. Remember that other girl also from austria I think, a few months ago? Somebody might only be starting that ordeal somewhere in the world today. You would have to commit an awful crime these days to get 24 years in prison which is a lot better than that basement. Wasn't the ceiling only 5ft 6in?

ModeSkeletor

If the daughter doesn't press kidnapping charges (and she's also the legal guardian of the other children anyway) what exactly can he be charged with? Is incest illegal over there, and if so I wouldn't imagine it carries that much of a sentence?

dsmythy

Another case from Russia a while back. I think it is more than 5 to tell the truth. And these are supposedly first world countries. You can only imagine what goes on in the wilder parts of the world.

Alessandra

ModeSkeletor wrote: »

If the daughter doesn't press kidnapping charges (and she's also the legal guardian of the other children anyway) what exactly can he be charged with? ?

Oh I dunno, rape maybe???

tech77

Mind-boggling depravity.
It's impossible to fathom how a father can repeatedly rape his daughter let alone go to elaborate lengths to imprison her for 24 years to do so- and then keep on doing it until she had 7 kids by him.
Also hard to believe how all this went "unnoticed".

What actually drives a "man" to do this though?
As someone else said this was fairly planned and deliberate, not accidental.
I wonder what reason he'd give for causing such a litany of nightmares.
Is it purely down to an uncontrolled sexual urge.
Or is it also about sadism/psychopathy as well.
Or is there other stuff driving it?

He deserves torture and eventual death, nothing less tbh. Showing mercy/empathy would be pointless to something so inhuman.
Understand it as much as possible i suppose, but torture it and kill it (as a possible deterrent to any cnut with similar ideas in future).

As others said though, unfortunately it may only be the tip of the iceberg.

marcsignal

Is it just me, or does 'Joseph Fritzl', the Austrian Father in this case, look scarily like 'Enoch Powell', the British Fascist ?? :eek:

SimpleSam06

I think the Austrian state should provide her with massive compensation for failing to pick up on the fact that this was going on, for decades no less, despite investigations into her disappearance. This is nothing less than gross incompetence. Nothing says sorry like a seven figure sum. I also think she should sell her story to the highest bidder, and use the combined funds from the two to live out the remainder of her life as she sees fit, anywhere she likes. If anyone deserves the life of a princess, its this woman.

As for the father, an example should be made of him. There are a variety of choices in this case, only a few of which would be countenanced by a civilised society, so I'll just say bah.

beautiation

Does she know about the fall of communism and all that craic? It's a good think Rickrolls are around to give her a familiar reference point as she tries to get the hang of the internet.

The_B_Man

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

I think the Austrian state should provide her with massive compensation for failing to pick up on the fact that this was going on, for decades no less, despite investigations into her disappearance. This is nothing less than gross incompetence. Nothing says sorry like a seven figure sum. I also think she should sell her story to the highest bidder, and use the combined funds from the two to live out the remainder of her life as she sees fit, anywhere she likes. If anyone deserves the life of a princess, its this woman.

As for the father, an example should be made of him. There are a variety of choices in this case, only a few of which would be countenanced by a civilised society, so I'll just say bah.

doubtful. They've already come out and said that there was no clerical, adminstrative or procedural errors on the part of the social workers, police, and other authorities. They're not mind readers!

kowloon

Given that:

1) The majority of crimes go unsolved and unpunished

2) Criminals who plan things are less likely to be caught than those who work on the spur of the moment

3) Crimes like this require extreme preparation and organisation

I would not be in the least bit surprised if theres a lot more of this going on. Particularly in countries where missing people and missing children go unreported and unnoticed.

palaver

According to German/Austrian reports, the whole story unfolds in a more and more sinister way.

First of all, the man-monster is the owner of several houses, quite a rich man, including the house where this horror occurred. He is an electrical engineer who is well capable to create a sophisticated cellar. That’s how he could do as he wanted in the house.

Apparantly he 'created' his children as his servants, like one (legal) son who was supposed to look after his properties but was by education kept in the dark and deliberately stupid - just for that purpose.

His obedient wife was sent away during the summer months to look after a guesthouse cum camping place in a tourist spot where twenty odd years ago the body of a raped girl was discovered. They are investigating his possibile involvement.

About punishment. As far as I read re Austrian law he is going to face at least 25 years in prison, basically life.
Incest, false imprisonment, rape and probably murder re the burned infant come together.

Very disturbing altogether. And the rumours are going high.

Whatever details, if there is hell, I hope this monster will be down the bottom.

sam34

the depths of depravity are just mind-boggling. no punishment severe enough for this monster.

CJay

They think he was planning on imprisoning his daughter for a while, it was mentioned that he started on the basement rooms well before he locked her up, but alos he waited til she was legally an adult, filed a missing persons report and then a month later presented a letter to the police supposedly from her saying she didn't want to be found. Legally their hands were tied, she was an adult and if she didn't want to be found she was perfectly entitled.
But, from wha tI heard in different reports the police never bought it, and every time a new baby appeared they'd try digging for evidence so they could break the case.

Seems this monster was sickeningly extremely clever...they could never get what they needed, just live with their suspicions...until she wrote the letter.

What a brave woman that after all those years of captivity she still fought to get free.I think it shows a great strength of mind that might just get her thorugh this.

Also, what I find scary, is that there could be people in Ireland living through this kind of horror.
Who know's what really going on behind closed doors.

I can't see how the wife didn't know...the mind boggles

Pepe LeFrits

The_B_Man wrote: »

well hes 73. in 15 years he'll most likely be dead anyway.

Well if he is alive when he gets released he may find it difficult to stay that way, given the horrific nature of his crimes.

Absolutely horrendous stuff. The kind of sustained psychological damage the girl must have suffered is hard to fathom. What shape mentally and physically the kids are in, I can't even guess.

palaver

I can only refer to what I've read.
Apparantly the kids from the cellar talk in their own 'grunting' language. Though they try to make an effort to talk properly with outsiders now. The youngest prefers to crawl and clings to his mother.
Dudess mentioned a disturbing book called, ehm, forget it right now, The Flowers of ...? Reminded me, too. Read it when I was very young, despised it, but it still haunts me.
Anyway, it seems that the psychological outlook is rather bland for the kids in the cellar. All your life confined, and not a clou about the world?
Jayze, I don't want to know what else was going on, will go on and will never end.
There is no such thing as a normal life after such an ordeal.

kowloon

Theres a stage of development after which it becomes increasingly difficult to adapt to major life changes and learn to speak properly, 'twas young enough, can't remember it off the top of my head.

SimpleSam06

The_B_Man wrote: »

doubtful. They've already come out and said that there was no clerical, adminstrative or procedural errors on the part of the social workers, police, and other authorities.

Heh. What would you say if you were potentially liable for a monstrosity like this? I say sue them anyway, if she ends up with a percentage of the gdp in her pocket they'll be more thorough next time.

bonkey

Poblachtach wrote: »

Imagine he died while the captives where inside. Only he knew the code.

They're currently investigating whether or not his son was also involved. There's reason to suspect he also had the code...not least of which was the fact that someone had to feed the captives while the father was on his annual holidays in Thailand.

Remember that other girl also from austria I think, a few months ago?

Natascha Kampusch. Inspirational woman. Apparently, she's offered her services to help with counselling in this case.

Overheal

Stark wrote: »

Not necessarily. In 15 years he'll be 88 and plenty of people live to be over 100 these days.

yea but with what medicare?

If i were his physician he'd find a few surprises in his IV.

bonkey

I find it slightly disturbing how many posters here seem to be saying:

Look how horrible that man was. Lets think up something truly horrible to do to him, to show that society doesn't accept such horrible things.

I say treat him as the law demands. No more, no less. Show that he truly is aberrant, and not just someone who's level we're quite willing to lower ourselves to given an excuse.

SimpleSam06

bonkey wrote: »

I say treat him as the law demands. No more, no less. Show that he truly is aberrant, and not just someone who's level we're quite willing to lower ourselves to given an excuse.

I don't think the law was written with this level of deviancy in mind. If such crimes were more common, you can bet your ass harsher laws would be in place. Until such time, orf wiv his extremeties!

copeyhagen

cut his nuts off and let him bleed to death, or feed him to hungry pigs!

latenia

Burn his balls off with sulphuric acid then feed them to pigs and make him watch then make him eat them when they've crapped them out again.

bonkey

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

I don't think the law was written with this level of deviancy in mind.

Then treat him as the law demands, and then look to change the law if you feel its necessary.

Its worth noting that hte man in question has "defended" his actions by saying he locked his initially locked daugher up to save her from drugs.

In other words, he claims to have seen a level of deviancy that he felt needed exceptional measures.

Sound familiar?

Insect Overlord

bonkey wrote: »

Then treat him as the law demands, and then look to change the law if you feel its necessary.

Its worth noting that hte man in question has "defended" his actions by saying he locked his initially locked daugher up to save her from drugs.

In other words, he claims to have seen a level of deviancy that he felt needed exceptional measures.

Sound familiar?

That is the most ridiculous defense I've ever heard. Seriously, 24 years of rape and false imprisonment does not equate to good parenting. How could anyone say they'd rather go through that than drug experimentation?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

congratulations on completely missing the point.

you win a gold star.

Insect Overlord

Mordeth wrote: »

congratulations on completely missing the point.

you win a gold star.

I got the point, ie the law has to be applied as it is and can be ammended later so as to deter future misdemeanours of this ilk. I understand that there's human rights statutes and whatnot preventing this guy from being brutalised by the pitchfork-and-torch-wielding mob.

But this Austrian guy trying to defend his actions as some sort of noble intervention is just plain wrong, even more so if he really believes that to be the case.

I will, however, keep the gold star!

bonkey

An Fhile wrote: »

But this Austrian guy trying to defend his actions as some sort of noble intervention is just plain wrong, even more so if he really believes that to be the case.

Bit like SimpleSam06 suggesting that we redefine the law to treat horrible people horrible is, presumably seen - by SimpleSam06 at least - as the same type of noble (or justifiied) intervention, perhaps?

Or was that the point you missed?

Insect Overlord

bonkey wrote: »

Bit like SimpleSam06 suggesting that we redefine the law to treat horrible people horrible is, presumably seen - by SimpleSam06 at least - as the same type of noble (or justifiied) intervention, perhaps?

Or was that the point you missed?

Ah right, yeah, I think I get you now. As in, a knee-jerk reaction to this case would almost parallel this criminal's reaction to drugs in society.

I don't fully disagree with the theory though. Obviously this is a special case (I really, really hope there's none like it in the world ) As such it should warrant special treatment imho. Not necessarily torture or public execution, but some form of punishment that makes it stand out.

There's problems with that on a number of levels, I know. Wasn't there a famous case of an assassin who killed a celebrity just for the fame and noteriety? Obviously nobody wants to encourage similar cases of reputation-forming/history-making crimes.
And one wouldn't want to offend the human rights groups either, in terms of inhumane punishments.

Tbh I really don't know what can be done about it.

SimpleSam06

bonkey wrote: »

Its worth noting that hte man in question has "defended" his actions by saying he locked his initially locked daugher up to save her from drugs.

In other words, he claims to have seen a level of deviancy that he felt needed exceptional measures.

Erm you don't think he was talking shite when he said that? I mean its not like he would lie. :rolleyes: In any case to achieve an equivalent level of overreaction you'd need to carpet bomb his neighbourhood as punishment.

bonkey

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Erm you don't think he was talking shite when he said that?

From what I've seen reported, I think he's a warped individual with a warped way of looking at the world.

I fully believe he is being honest when he says (as he has) that he is unrepentant as he believes he did nothing wrong.

I mean its not like he would lie. :rolleyes:

Then he's a p1ss-poor liar, given - as I've just mentioned - that he maintains his actions were just and correct and that he is unrepentant.

bonkey

An Fhile wrote: »

Ah right, yeah, I think I get you now. As in, a knee-jerk reaction to this case would almost parallel this criminal's reaction to drugs in society.

I don't fully disagree with the theory though. Obviously this is a special case (I really, really hope there's none like it in the world ) As such it should warrant special treatment imho. Not necessarily torture or public execution, but some form of punishment that makes it stand out.

I'd fully advocate laws that are toughter on cases like this...just not laws that are themselves cruel in some sort of warped "retribution as justice" way.

Agamemnon

He should be locked up for the rest of his life at the very least. Hopefully he'll be killed in prison though.

The_B_Man

so the latest is that he used to go to thailand for a bitta pervin for a month or so at a time.

So who fed them? did he leave a months supply of weetabix? or microchips? or did somebody else know the code and take care of them while he was gone?


also, the kids dont speak properly. they talk in grunts like animals and have vitamin D deficincies from never seeing daylight. they're also anaemic and walk crouched over from the cramped conditions. The mother has also apparently aged horribly and looks almost twice her age.

SimpleSam06

bonkey wrote: »

I fully believe he is being honest when he says (as he has) that he is unrepentant as he believes he did nothing wrong.

Heh, well there's no doubt hes cleverer than most, its only to be expected a lot of people would swallow his line of bull.

bonkey wrote: »

just not laws that are themselves cruel in some sort of warped "retribution as justice" way.

Hahaha, what did you think justice was? It IS retribution. Prison doesn't help anyone and its not meant to. Its a PUNISHMENT.

bonkey

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Heh, well there's no doubt hes cleverer than most, its only to be expected a lot of people would swallow his line of bull.

So when he says he's not sorry....you think thats bull and he's actually feeling remorse?

Either that, or you're trying to find fault with what I said, despite agreeing with me!

Hahaha, what did you think justice was? It IS retribution. Prison doesn't help anyone and its not meant to. Its a PUNISHMENT.

Thats the simple, easy view of things. If that helps you get from day to day, you stick with it.

SimpleSam06

bonkey wrote: »

So when he says he's not sorry....you think thats bull and he's actually feeling remorse?

No that bit is probably true. Tell me, which part of his drug prevention process involved sticking his penis into an eleven year old girl?

bonkey wrote: »

Thats the simple, easy view of things. If that helps you get from day to day, you stick with it.

Well, nobody said the truth had to be complicated!

bonkey

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

No that bit is probably true. Tell me, which part of his drug prevention process involved sticking his penis into an eleven year old girl?

You seem to be working under the illusion that I think his argument is reasonable.

I was merely pointing out the parallels between his "deviancy requires extreme measures" argument and yours.

Well, nobody said the truth had to be complicated!

Unfortunately the truth is more complicated.

It is well established that the aspect of punishment for a crime does not act as a deterrant. So we're not going to prevent further crimes no matter how horrible we make the punishment on this guy.

That leaves us with a range of choices, all of which ultimately should protect society from re-offense by the same person. Lock him up for life and thats accomplished.

Anything more than that...well..what does society gain from inflicting horrible pain on the guy? Those who think its a good thing to inflict horrible pain on people as punishment get to feel better that society has indulged their sadism...and thats about it.

Personally, I don't think society should condone your wish to see pain inflicted on those you see as deviants, any more than I think it should condone the imprisonment of adults by parents with or without accompanying rape because the parents claim it was necessary for the protection of their deviant children.

While I'm not trying to equate the two, I think society should feel as repulsed by the wishes to inflict pain on this guy, or the wish see him killed by others in prison as it should by what he did himself.

You, being one of those people who want him to be sadistically punished will presumably disagree vehemently....just as he disagreed vehemently that he did not have the right to do what he did.

But hey...to you, just like him, its a simple, black-and-white issue. Where you can see the reasons why he's wrong, I can equally see the reasons why you are.

tech77

bonkey wrote: »

So when he says he's not sorry....you think thats bull and he's actually feeling remorse? Either that, or you're trying to find fault with what I said, despite agreeing with me! Thats the simple, easy view of things. If that helps you get from day to day, you stick with it.

The point made about similarities between the over-reactions of perpetrator and punisher is stretching it tbh.
(that is, of course, if you wanna even believe his bull$hit/convenient delusion about his acts being an "overreaction" to drug taking in the first place- give me a break.
More like self-serving inhuman punishment of an innocent).
Exploiting that analogy between perp and punisher so readily could justify not punishing anyone too harshly (no matter how heinous their crime) couldn't it?

BTW the best suggestion i have heard is to give him to medical science for experimentation in the hope of understanding the causes of this more.
After that dispose of him.

tech77

bonkey wrote: »

You seem to be working under the illusion that I think his argument is reasonable. I was merely pointing out the parallels between his "deviancy requires extreme measures" argument and yours. Unfortunately the truth is more complicated. It is well established that the aspect of punishment for a crime does not act as a deterrant. So we're not going to prevent further crimes no matter how horrible we make the punishment on this guy. That leaves us with a range of choices, all of which ultimately should protect society from re-offense by the same person. Lock him up for life and thats accomplished. Anything more than that...well..what does society gain from inflicting horrible pain on the guy? Those who think its a good thing to inflict horrible pain on people as punishment get to feel better that society has indulged their sadism...and thats about it. Personally, I don't think society should condone your wish to see pain inflicted on those you see as deviants, any more than I think it should condone the imprisonment of adults by parents with or without accompanying rape because the parents claim it was necessary for the protection of their deviant children. While I'm not trying to equate the two, I think society should feel as repulsed by the wishes to inflict pain on this guy, or the wish see him killed by others in prison as it should by what he did himself. You, being one of those people who want him to be sadistically punished will presumably disagree vehemently....just as he disagreed vehemently that he did not have the right to do what he did. But hey...to you, just like him, its a simple, black-and-white issue. Where you can see the reasons why he's wrong, I can equally see the reasons why you are.

Comparing his arrogance about his right to inhumanly torture an INNOCENT and society's right to severely punish the ABOMINABLY GUILTY (ie this guy) is not a fantastic analogy.
Again it's uncomfortably treating absolute guilt and absolute innocence comparably.

Also is it really the case that if an example was made of this guy that it wouldn't serve as some kinda deterrent.
I'd find that hard to believe.

Irishcrx

His drugs theory is a load of arrogant crap...he locked her up to save her from drugs what?ruining her life which he did with flying colours, raped her hundreds of times i'm sure and that was helping her according to him?Bull****...drugs are against the law so if rape, torture, false imprisiment and holding people capture so any who buys that crap is out of their mind, them poor kids have never even seen daylight they can hardly speak for gods sake and the saddest thing is he is 73 nothing they do to him now can ever be punishment enough...makes me sick.

SimpleSam06

bonkey wrote: »

I was merely pointing out the parallels between his "deviancy requires extreme measures" argument and yours.

And you seem to have missed my point about: In any case to achieve an equivalent level of overreaction you'd need to carpet bomb his neighbourhood as punishment. Are you seeing the difference there yet?

bonkey wrote: »

You, being one of those people who want him to be sadistically punished will presumably disagree vehemently....just as he disagreed vehemently that he did not have the right to do what he did.

You're making two mistakes here: Assuming I am a sadist, and buying into the idea that he did not know he was doing wrong. He knew full well, he just didn't care. Wakey wakey.

bonkey wrote: »

But hey...to you, just like him, its a simple, black-and-white issue. Where you can see the reasons why he's wrong, I can equally see the reasons why you are.

Baaahahhaha this really is moral equivalency gone completely mad. You didn't mention hitler yet, I guess thats something.

Dudess

bonkey wrote: »

I find it slightly disturbing how many posters here seem to be saying:

Look how horrible that man was. Lets think up something truly horrible to do to him, to show that society doesn't accept such horrible things.

Heh, obviously you don't read After Hours much - I'm starting to become desensitised to those "let's *insert horrible torture here*" comments.

bonkey wrote: »

Its worth noting that the man in question has "defended" his actions by saying he locked his initially locked daugher up to save her from drugs.

He might be bullsh1tting though.