Truce Time...

kelly1

Folks, I think it's time to call a truce between the our warring sides!

These debates (arguments) are getting us nowhere. Both sides are becoming more and more intransigent and instead of coming to an understanding of each other's position, we seems to be getting more frustrated and incredulous.

Instead of ridiculing and belitting each other's point of view, why don't we try to come to an understanding? Nobody has a right to judge any of you and it's also wrong of you to ridicule someone's beliefs. We both believe we're right so progress can only be made when we're prepared to listen and understand the other side of the argument.

I would encourage atheists/agnostics to ask genuine questions in the Christianity forum and not come trying to catch us out. But I objects to posts/threads which are intended only to ridicule or mock.

I've been guilty of generalisation in the past and again I apologise for this. I've also heard far too much generalization from your side. I'm going to stop evangelizing in your forum. So let's just show each other a bit more respect.

Take care,
Noel.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

But I objects to posts/threads which are intended only to ridicule or mock.

Most topics are worth a serious think and a serious response, but I draw the line at creationism -- point-and-giggle is appropriate

tbh

in fairness dude, you're the one who said Nuala O'Faileon was going to hell because she didn't believe the same stuff you did.

CerebralCortex

Most patronising thread ever.
No no keep evangelising its kinda fun to see how right I am about what I believe.

Dades

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, Noel.

I hope you'll continue to post here, even if we're unlikely to ever agree.

Hivemind187

lol, did you really think that this would work?

You'll have to find a solution to the intrinsic flaw that there is nothing wrong with ridiculing someones beliefs if those beliefs deserve - or indeed invite - ridicule.

Stick around, we'll fix you yet

cavedave

kelly1
Nobody has a right to judge any of you and it's also wrong of you to ridicule someone's beliefs.

Is this true? Do most major religions not think that atheists and indeed the wrong type of Christians are consigned to hell? If regarding someone as massively sinful is not judging them what is?

and it's also wrong of you to ridicule someone's beliefs.

Why? What if their beliefs are really ridiculous? You have never raised a smirk at someone who follows astrology and tea leaves and wont step on cracks in case it means something terrible will happen?

kelly1

tbh wrote: »

in fairness dude, you're the one who said Nuala O'Faileon was going to hell because she didn't believe the same stuff you did.

I never said any such thing. I made it clear that it's not my place to judge her. What I said was that I don't see how she can she could be saved and not believe. That's my view, God might take a different view.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Most patronising thread ever.
No no keep evangelising its kinda fun to see how right I am about what I believe.

Patronizing? I'm appealing to both side to show a little understanding. What's wrong with that?

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

Patronizing? I'm appealing to both side to show a little understanding. What's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with a little understanding at all.

Oh, could you just answer this question from the "Evil" thread? You seem to have missed it....

Dades wrote: »

Does God want, say, Indonesian tribeswomen to cover up too? Or just First World women?

MrP

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

These debates (arguments) are getting us nowhere.

Depends on what you mean by "nowhere".

You certainly aren't convincing anyone of the validity of your religion (or the position that girls should put more clothes on), but I see that more as the fault of your arguments than anything else.

Your arguments all seem to be eventually broken down to requiring blind faith or requiring someone to have an nondescript religious experience before they except them.

Needless to say that isn't going to win you any points over here. If you argument only sounds good after God has touched by heart, then there is a problem with your argument.

kelly1 wrote: »

Nobody has a right to judge any of you and it's also wrong of you to ridicule someone's beliefs.

Not only is it not wrong to ridicule someone's beliefs, it is healthy and necessary for beliefs to be ridiculed.

The problem is not the ridicule of beliefs, it is the belief that some beliefs are beyond ridicule. The vast majority of human beliefs are in some way absurd (very Becket of me), it is healthy to be prepared to look at them as such.

kelly1 wrote: »

I would encourage atheists/agnostics to ask genuine questions in the Christianity forum and not come trying to catch us out.

It is through "catching you out" that atheists and sceptics point out the genuine problems with Christian doctrine.

The issue you guys have is that you refuse to accept that there are actually genuine problems with Christianity, and as such you find all this annoying, because you believe in the rightness of your position without actually being able to explain why you are right.

tbh

I think I speak for everyone on the Agnostic side of this particular fence when I say it's incredibly patronising when you try to show us the error of our ways, and when we rebuff your attempts, you appeal for a truce and say we should respect each others beliefs. Nobody was trying to persuade you not to believe in God, yet you were trying to tell everyone why they should believe the same thing you do.

as I said before, if you try to persuade me why you believe something, I'll respect you. If you try to persuade me why I should believe something, I won't.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Patronizing? I'm appealing to both side to show a little understanding. What's wrong with that?

Because nearly every single question I've asked you is either ignored or left unanswered.

LaVidaLoca

We need a whetstone to sharpen out wits on.

Interesting though isnt it, that I was instantly banned from the Christianity forum for being as critical of Christianity as you have been in your posts of atheism?

As far as being polite about other people's beleifs, I dont think that is a good idea at all. The reason that humanity has advanced as far as it has is because somebody had the guts to say: "Um, that's bollix, the Earth goes round the sun, not the other way round." and so on.

In this spirit I will say that I think your beleifs are moronic mewlings from the late Bronze Age, which have been througoughly and comprehensively surpassed by all the knowledge and experience of the past 500 years. They have no place in the 21st cantury. And yet, I would defend to the death your right to have them.

kelly1

Hivemind187 wrote: »

lol, did you really think that this would work?

You'll have to find a solution to the intrinsic flaw that there is nothing wrong with ridiculing someones beliefs if those beliefs deserve - or indeed invite - ridicule.

Some beliefs are just plain wrong, that can't be avoided. And false beliefs are not just confined to the religious sphere. But how does it help calling someone stupid?

cavedave wrote: »

Is this true? Do most major religions not think that atheists and indeed the wrong type of Christians are consigned to hell? If regarding someone as massively sinful is not judging them what is?

It is my belief that someone who doesn't love God can't be saved but my belief is only that. God is the final judge, not me or anyone else.

cavedave wrote: »

Why? What if their beliefs are really ridiculous? You have never raised a smirk at someone who follows astrology and tea leaves and wont step on cracks in case it means something terrible will happen?

Well there are different degrees or ridiculousness but I still think it's wrong to ridicule someone. What not just disagree?

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

I never said any such thing. I made it clear that it's not my place to judge her. What I said was that I don't see how she can she could be saved and not believe. That's my view, God might take a different view.

hmmm... In other words, if she does not believe in God, like you do, she won't ask for "forgiveness". If she doesn't, she's going to hell. So, not only did you not "never say any such thing", you said it over and over and over again.

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not talking about a cure! It's time for her to reconcile herself with God. How acts towards God between now the time she dies will determine her eternal fate. Kinda important really...

kelly1 wrote: »

Whose loss are you concerned about? I'm concerned with the salvation of her soul! Memories etc don't really a whole lot in the grand schema of things.

kelly1 wrote: »

There really is nothing to fear. All she has to do is turn to God and trust in His mercy and her sins will be forgiven. All she needs to be saved is a genuine contrite confession.

kelly1 wrote: »

I know you don't believe this but her relationship with God for the rest of her life will determine her eternal fate - one blissful, the other constant agony.

If I discovered that Mohammed was a true prophet, I would be shocked to my core. I would have to give up belief in God. This isn't going to happen though .

kelly1 wrote: »

The point is that she doesn't realize that she's facing judgment. No she didn't request prayers and I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Hell, she just doesn't believe it exists.

The charitable thing to do is to pray for her conversion.

kelly1 wrote: »

Clearly you're not Christian and according to my faith we face judgment after death. We are saved by grace and this grace is lost through sin. Only God's forgiveness and the action of the Holy Spirit can restore this grace. In order to be saved, one needs to die in a state of grace.

kelly1 wrote: »

Don't you see the point I'm making!? She doesn't believe in Hell and she could be headed there if she doesn't repent! She doesn't realize the danger her soul is in and she probably doesn't believe she has a soul. What could possibly be wrong with praying for her?? If she converts by the grace of God, you can be certain that she will be forever grateful and will pray for those who prayed for her. It's a win win situation.

kelly1 wrote: »

Personally I think most atheists are cavalier about death now but when it comes to the time, I reckons dread fear will set in!

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??

kelly1 wrote: »

Stakey, I was motivated to start this thread through compassion for her situation and how she feels facing death. Did you listen to the interview? She's lost nearly all of the former joy she got from life and finds it hard to deal with her belief that she will cease to exist when she dies. I really feel for her. I wish I could talk to her and try to give her hope.

You obviously don't believe in an afterlife but I do. She is facing the death of her physical body but her soul will continue to exist either in agony or ecstasy and I pray that God will be merciful to her. I pray that Jesus will touch her heart and draw her to Himself.

kelly1 wrote: »

what good is a peaceful death if she ends up in a very unpeaceful place when she dies!?

kelly1 wrote: »

How do you know that? How do you know that she won't be judged and found wanting when she dies ?

She has turned her back on God, not the other way around. Unfortunately, that's her choice. I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.

You know what I think Noel? I think the more effort you put into convincing people that you are right, the less time you have to spend wondering if maybe you might be wrong.

Beruthiel

kelly1 wrote: »

why don't we try to come to an understanding?

You do realise that will never happen.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Because nearly every single question I've asked you is either ignored or left unanswered.

I've answered lots of your questions though clearly not to your satisfaction. Anyway it's hard to keep up with all these posts (when I'm in work).

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

I've answered lots of your questions though clearly not to your satisfaction. Anyway it's hard to keep up with all these posts (when I'm in work).

Its like being in a cartoon.

tbh

cartoons are funny, and mostly harmless

kelly1

tbh wrote: »

hmmm... In other words, if she does not believe in God, like you do, she won't ask for "forgiveness". If she doesn't, she's going to hell. So, not only did you not "never say any such thing", you said it over and over and over again.

I didn't say that she will go the Hell but that's my fear.

Tim_Murphy

Some beliefs are just plain wrong, that can't be avoided. And false beliefs are not just confined to the religious sphere. But how does it help calling someone stupid?

Most people tend to ridicule a belief, not the actual believer. Some (many) beliefs are ridiculous and I have no problem saying so. This is NOT the same as ridiculing a particular person for having that belief. People believe weird things all the time, it doesn’t mean that they are stupid, or indeed deserving of ridicule.

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

I didn't say that she will go the Hell but that's my fear.

you're lying, Noel.

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

I've answered lots of your questions though clearly not to your satisfaction. Anyway it's hard to keep up with all these posts (when I'm in work).

Can you answer the naked Indonesian lady one please? it is posted in two different threads that you are posting on... you can't miss it.

MrP

Tim_Murphy

MrPudding wrote: »

Can you answer the naked Indonesian lady one please? it is posted in two different threads that you are posting on... you can't miss it.

MrP

+1

rowlandbrowner

beliefs and ideologies need to be mocked; everything is potentially fallible and needs to be shown as such, be it flags or anthems or deity’s. Any Religious person who respects the importance of free speech must allow their beliefs to be mocked openly, you DO NOT have the right not to be offended, if you want to have governments prop up arcane blasphemy laws and censor art then what is going to happen is that planes are going to hit buildings and people are going to be killed and persecuted.

So, I feel there is no “truce” to be called, there is a war on, it’s not between the fateful and the heretics. It’s a war led by those of us who are sick of seeing people being killed, against a minority don’t want their beliefs mocked at the price others have to pay

I am a free citizen in a free country and I have the power to openly state this, Christians are stupid, your beliefs are ridiculous, grow up and face what the world really is. You can be offended by that, I don't care, but you cannot argue against my right to say it.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by "nowhere".

You certainly aren't convincing anyone of the validity of your religion (or the position that girls should put more clothes on), but I see that more as the fault of your arguments than anything else.

Your arguments all seem to be eventually broken down to requiring blind faith or requiring someone to have an nondescript religious experience before they except them.

Needless to say that isn't going to win you any points over here. If you argument only sounds good after God has touched by heart, then there is a problem with your argument.

Ok so my arguments aren't convincing anyone. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. My faith makes sense to me but not to you. How do you know which one of us is wrong. Maybe you just don't understand?

Wicknight wrote: »

Not only is it not wrong to ridicule someone's beliefs, it is healthy and necessary for beliefs to be ridiculed.

The problem is not the ridicule of beliefs, it is the belief that some beliefs are beyond ridicule. The vast majority of human beliefs are in some way absurd (very Becket of me), it is healthy to be prepared to look at them as such.

How does calling some a fool help? Logical argument is often sufficent, insults don't advance bring any progress.

Wicknight wrote: »

It is through "catching you out" that atheists and sceptics point out the genuine problems with Christian doctrine.

You *think* you're catching us out.

Wicknight wrote: »

The issue you guys have is that you refuse to accept that there are actually genuine problems with Christianity, and as such you find all this annoying, because you believe in the rightness of your position without actually being able to explain why you are right.

Again your understanding could be just as much at fault as the explanation.

tbh wrote: »

I think I speak for everyone on the Agnostic side of this particular fence when I say it's incredibly patronising when you try to show us the error of our ways, and when we rebuff your attempts, you appeal for a truce and say we should respect each others beliefs. Nobody was trying to persuade you not to believe in God, yet you were trying to tell everyone why they should believe the same thing you do.

My post is in a more general sense. Have you not see the atheist posts in the Christianity forum?

tbh wrote: »

as I said before, if you try to persuade me why you believe something, I'll respect you. If you try to persuade me why I should believe something, I won't.

OK, fine.

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

We need a whetstone to sharpen out wits on.

Interesting though isnt it, that I was instantly banned from the Christianity forum for being as critical of Christianity as you have been in your posts of atheism?

You're right, I have been very critical. It won't happen again.

kelly1

tbh wrote: »

you're lying, Noel.

Tell me please, where did I say she will go to Hell. My statements were conditional.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

...Ok so my arguments aren't convincing anyone. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. My faith makes sense to me but not to you. How do you know which one of us is wrong.....

Evidence my good man. There is no evidence for the existence of god/gods and you have never provided any.

By the way we're still waiting for a response on the naked Indonesians??

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

Tell me please, where did I say she will go to Hell. My statements were conditional.

1. It's time for her to reconcile herself with God. How [she] acts towards God between now the time she dies will determine her eternal fate.


2. All she has to do is turn to God and trust in His mercy and her sins will be forgiven. All she needs to be saved is a genuine contrite confession.


3. She is facing the death of her physical body but her soul will continue to exist either in agony or ecstasy and I pray that God will be merciful to her.

Three times you've said there that if she doesn't turn to God, she'll go to hell.

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

Some beliefs are just plain wrong, that can't be avoided. And false beliefs are not just confined to the religious sphere. But how does it help calling someone stupid?

Here is where the problem begins.... you dont go saying other people's beliefs are stupid...!!! Who are you to say that? it just isn't your place, thats their beliefs and what they hold dear to them... dont be calling it stupid, thats how many wars start!

kelly1 wrote: »

It is my belief that someone who doesn't love God can't be saved but my belief is only that. God is the final judge, not me or anyone else.

So, not coming round to the reality yet? If you dont believe in god - it wont affect you any way...! By that logic all the buddists are going to hell also, with the murderors...

kelly1 wrote: »

Well there are different degrees or ridiculousness but I still think it's wrong to ridicule someone.

Im not convinced... think your just saying that, you dont seem to have any issue with knocking others outside your own christian club..