Revenue Rip Off Plan?

-Chris-

seanpaul wrote: »

In Ireland there is a closed market - bascially the Government by using VRT to generate very high revenues are protecting Irish car sellers from competition and this allows them to charge high monopolistic inflated prices. If there was no VRT, customers in Ireland would be free to shop around (the law of perfect information) and would see that e.g. a Ford Focus 2005 costs €12,000 in the UK rather than €18,000 in Ireland, so off they go to get the cheaper option. As a follow on Irish car sellers would have to drop prices to compete (perfect competition).

This makes no sense to me.

If there was no such thing as VRT, the Focus would cost €12,000 here and in the UK. There would be fair competition.

If there is VRT on cars brought in through manufacturer channels AND there is VRT on cars imported privately, then the system is still fair and allows Irish car sellers (trade and private) to compete with the UK.

The reason the Focus costs €18,000 here rather than €12,000 is because of VRT, not because of the Irish car sellers.

By charging VRT on the OMSP of a car rather than the purchase price pre-tax, you ensure that an equal amount of tax is paid (or at least accounted for in the price), whether the car imported or purchased here.

It's revenue generation and protectionism, agreed. But I don't follow the rest of your arguement.

seanpaul

what do you find difficult to understand?

...because of VRT this allows Irish car dealers to charge higher prices, simply because if there was no VRT Irish car dealers would have their prices there in black and white for customers to see and customers could see exactly how much extra a car costs in Ireland compared with the UK or anywhere esle.

Because of two factors: hyper inflation in Ireland, and the VRT system the Government use to cream money out of us (and perhaps the Euro change over), Irish buyers just see higher prices and its not too easy to work out, 1. is it just the inflation rate, 2. the VRT rate included, or perhaps something esle.

What ever you say - Irish buyers are paying way way way more for cars that people in the UK - listen if you drive over the border from Cavan to Armagh, you get a massive drop in price, and its only a few miles.

The reason for this is the closed hyperinflated market caused by the VRT system and the way in which it inflates prices and protects Irish dealers from competition.

Seems fairly straightfroward to me!

seanpaul

AudiChris

regarding your comments "come on with the conspiracy theories lads"

I refer you to the other thread posted today regarding 'VRT Calculator'

as someone esle posted:

I'm only new so you'll have to fogive me if I'm repeating anything thats been said before.
In relation to the 2 different calculators I had a difference of over €1600 between the old and the new. The old being the better. I put in details for a 2001 318se and the vrt was €2900 roughly, and when I put the same details into the new one I was quoted over €4500. I rang the revenue and I actually spoke to a nice person, shock horror, and she told me to pay it before july if I wanted to save money. She said the one that is up now is only a test site and would be taken down shortly. I put the co2 in as 190 and maybe that was wrong but I'll definitely be paying up before july if its right

-Chris-

seanpaul wrote: »

what do you find difficult to understand?

...because of VRT this allows Irish car dealers to charge higher prices, simply because if there was no VRT Irish car dealers would have their prices there in black and white for customers to see and customers could see exactly how much extra a car costs in Ireland compared with the UK or anywhere esle.

If you're talking about new cars, VRT is charged by the government and is not a way for the dealer to make more money. Historically Ireland has had LOWER pre-tax prices than the rest of Europe.
If you're talking about used cars, dealers can't overcharge customers (this one'll get me flamed) as it's customers that set the price - the used car market is a very good example of the price equilibrium you were talking about earlier. Any dealer charging more than a customer will pay will sell no cars until the supply runs low enough that customers are forced to pay the higher prices to satisfy their demand

seanpaul wrote: »

Because of two factors: hyper inflation in Ireland, and the VRT system the Government use to cream money out of us (and perhaps the Euro change over),

There is no hyperinflation in Ireland.

The government "cream money out of us" with income tax, VAT, VRT etc. etc. They also provide massive amounts of employment and run our social welfare system. I think this is waaaay outside the realm of the OPs original point and probably more suited to the economics forum

seanpaul wrote: »

Irish buyers just see higher prices and its not too easy to work out, 1. is it just the inflation rate, 2. the VRT rate included, or perhaps something esle.

Anyone here will help you to work out the pre-VAT & VRT price of car. Just ask. Alternatively, call your local dealer, they'll also be able to guide you.

You can track the changes in new car pricing from the archives at simi.ie. Compare those to the inflation figures you can obtain from the CSO. Let me know how you get on... :rolleyes:

seanpaul wrote: »

What ever you say - Irish buyers are paying way way way more for cars that people in the UK - listen if you drive over the border from Cavan to Armagh, you get a massive drop in price, and its only a few miles.

Importing a car will save you some money and will increase your risk of getting stung in a situation where you have no support if something goes wrong. The internet is more expensive than the high-street, shall we tell HMV to stop over charging us? Buy where you find best value. If enough people do it, the equilibrium will shift and prices will change.

seanpaul wrote: »

The reason for this is the closed hyperinflated market caused by the VRT system and the way in which it inflates prices and protects Irish dealers from competition.

VRT is not causing hyperinflation. It's not even causing normal inflation (afaik, economists, feel free to correct me).

It's the gov'ts job to protect their citizens from external competition, without strangling exports - our lower rates of corporation tax and the resultant celtic tiger are also due to gov't taxation policy that doesn't agree with Europe...

seanpaul wrote: »

Seems fairly straightfroward to me!

[/Chris's participation in this thread]:D

-Chris-

seanpaul wrote: »

AudiChris

regarding your comments "come on with the conspiracy theories lads"

I refer you to the other thread posted today regarding 'VRT Calculator'

as someone esle posted:

I'm only new so you'll have to fogive me if I'm repeating anything thats been said before.
In relation to the 2 different calculators I had a difference of over €1600 between the old and the new. The old being the better. I put in details for a 2001 318se and the vrt was €2900 roughly, and when I put the same details into the new one I was quoted over €4500. I rang the revenue and I actually spoke to a nice person, shock horror, and she told me to pay it before july if I wanted to save money. She said the one that is up now is only a test site and would be taken down shortly. I put the co2 in as 190 and maybe that was wrong but I'll definitely be paying up before july if its right

Supporting my arguement that there's an error in the calculator, and reinforcing my suggestion that we should wait until the revenue provide a legitimate link to the calculator (rather than the current URL hack) before we're up in arms about being consciously ripped off.

Seriously, this is sooo OT and pointless - I'm out!

johnf2020

I tried the calculator on my Old Renault Fuego GTX which I was going to clear this week.
Old System----OMSP €800,,,tax rate 30%,,,VRT €315
Test System--omsp €2000,,tax rate 0%,,, vrt €280.

To wait or not,,that is the question?

B00MSTICK

We can all agree its broken right? No point worrying till closer to July. Lock thread 'til then?

johnf2020 wrote:

I tried the calculator on my Old Renault Fuego GTX which I was going to clear this week.
Old System----OMSP €800,,,tax rate 30%,,,VRT €315
Test System--omsp €2000,,tax rate 0%,,, vrt €280.

Chances are come July the OMSP will be very similar to the old price but you'll get charged the highest rate (36%) unless you have the Co2 data, which I doubt is easily available.

Mc-BigE

AudiChris wrote: »

Supporting my arguement that there's an error in the calculator, and reinforcing my suggestion that we should wait until the revenue provide a legitimate link to the calculator (rather than the current URL hack) before we're up in arms about being consciously ripped off.

Seriously, this is sooo OT and pointless - I'm out!

I agree that this is probably a work in progress, but its live on the website, not hacked, the only difference is that if you go directly to the ROS site and use there links it will link you to the correct one i.e the one with CC at the end of the web page. However, like me, if you have the vrt calculator bookmarked for a while, when you click on it, it shows you the co2 emissions one with the overpriced OSMP, i nearly sh*t myself when i saw the OSMP for a 2006 320d 49,000ish :eek:

(i started a thread this morning about this, i did check before for "VRT calculator" thread, didn't think it was under a very broad title of "VRT rip off" maybe the title should be changed)

Anyone who is planning to import a car from 1 july, i would advise to print off the current vrt calculation showing the correct OSMP of the car, then compare in 1st july