Funerals

Charlie3dan

The last time I attended a funeral I was actually disturbed by some of the things the priest said in his sermon. Apparently though, everything he said was quite standard in funeral services and that would be what you'd hear at any funeral.

Got me thinking that in this country it would be hard to avoid religious customs in these circumstances. If you want to be buried, graveyards are normally part of a church. So you'd have to have the standard funeral. Even with cremation, there's normally a priest performing a religious service (as far as I know).

I don't care what they do with me when I go, in fact I hope they don''t waste money on an expensive tombstone and coffin, but I really don't want to have some priest talking about how god has called me back to heaven.

What are people's feelings on this? How much would you let the feelings of your family influence this?

Dades

FYI couple of other threads here and here.

Also, I don't actually think most cemeteries are part of a church anymore. At least not in Dublin anyway.

If I live long enough so my passing won't be a complete shock, I'd specify a non-religious service. Otherwise whatever my family want. In reality though, they can just throw me in a skip.

seamus

Charlie3dan wrote: »

What are people's feelings on this? How much would you let the feelings of your family influence this?

I'm not sure what the tie is between churches and graveyards, if any. I imagine that once you buy a plot, you can bury whomever you want in it.

I've never had to deal with a death, but I imagine that most families are content to go with the wishes of the deceased, whatever they are. In cases where someone dies young or suddenly, I can see issues arising out of deeply religious parents.

In fact a mate of mine is of the type that he'd probably prefer that we drive him around in a sports car á la Weekend at Bernies, with a big banner saying, "Jesus is a c*nt and now I'm gonna go and kick him square in the nuts", then go to the pub and get absolutely f*cked. His mother would try have a religious ceremony and I would be obliged by my dead mate to disturb it and call her a complete bitch in front of the congregation and steal his body, purely because that's what my dead mate would want.

Dades

seamus wrote: »

I would be obliged by my dead mate to disturb it and call her a complete bitch in front of the congregation and steal his body, purely because that's what my dead mate would want.

Now that's one way of livening up a ceremony.

Sangre

I plan on being stuffed and mounted in the living room. It will be a stipulation of receving any inheritance.

Charlie3dan

seamus wrote: »

drive him around in a sports car á la Weekend at Bernies, with a big banner saying, "Jesus is a c*nt and now I'm gonna go and kick him square in the nuts", then go to the pub and get absolutely f*cked.

Now I know what kind of ceremony I want

LaVidaLoca

And placed in the lobby of a hotel to frighten children.

Doctor DooM

I wouldnt mind a religious ceremony if it made my relatives feel better.

Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

Xhristy I've already told my closest family & friends what to do with me if something should happen.

1) Donate any organs they can
2) Give my body to science
3) Have a small party celebrating my life, with absolutley no religious component whatsoever.

1. If I am in use my organs hooked up to a machine territory I want to be used to test drugs on. Organ donation could save say ten lives but using my still breathing corpse to test a new aids drug or somesuch could save a lot more.

2.Spend the 5K a dublin plot costs to buy a bit of bog to put me in. This is the old libertarian thing that keeping the environment private will make sure it is looked after. If before putting me in the bog someone wants to wrap me in tinfoil and surround me with statues of Jimmy Saville just to confuse future generations of archeologists I do not mind.

Asiaprod

I have a date with Zillah, if the wind is blowing in the right direction:D

Dades

Galvasean

Sangre wrote: »

I plan on being stuffed and mounted in the living room. It will be a stipulation of receving any inheritance.

Thats a great idea. I might do that too, only pose me simultaneously fighting a lion and a bear.

nesf

Charlie3dan wrote: »

How much would you let the feelings of your family influence this?

They can do whatever they want. I'd view my funeral as an outlet for their grief, I really wouldn't care what was done so long as they drew some comfort from it.

Latchy

I like the whole notion of playing some of your fav pieces of music at the end of the church service as they do here in the uk .Never seen that at any catholic or protastant funeral in ireland .

aguaclara

i'd be inclined to agree with xhristy - med students need all the cadavers they can get. and as for family wishes - screw them, it's my funeral. though i'm pretty sure that if i died tomorrow my send-off would end up being your typical irish catholic affair (despite my repeated stipulations that it be anything but) due to myriad social and familial pressures. where i'm from (the sticks) there's still a roaring trade in pre-signed mass cards, the 21st century equivalent of indulgences. strange, strange world

DublinWriter

Having buried my Mum last year, I was more upset at the way the Glasnevin Cemetery Crematorium operated like a conveyor belt with our entire party being pushed from the local church by the undertakers so that we didn't miss our 'slot'.

As I walked out of the Crematorium after the short service, I lit a cigarette, chatted with family and friends, and over their shoulders noticed four hearses lined up in what I could best describe as a holding-pattern.

When you deal with the daily horror of caring for a terminally ill parent for a year and have been working out the logistics of the HSE, home-care, home-nursing, hospice and eventual funeral arrangements, what ever gobbledy-gook the local priest wants to incant at the eventual service is basically irrelevant.

I think you have to sign yourself up now if you want to donate your body for medical research.
And you can't just bury yourself in bog, it has to be in a cemetry afaik.
A few years back some family wanted to bury their daughter in the back garden and they weren't let.

I want a seriously pimped graveside.
I don't care about the rest.

diddley

This is something which I've often thought about. I mean, I'd assume that a huge proportion of Irish people are irreligious or agnostic, yet I'm not sure whats offered to them in the form of some non-religious ceremony :S ?

cavedave

Moonbaby

And you can't just bury yourself in bog, it has to be in a cemetry afaik.

I don't want to bury myself. I want to be incapable of doing anything at the point i am being buried. Yes you do have to be buried in a cemetery but I know of no reason you cannot buy a bog and then have that zoned as a cemetery. Then give everyone gps coordinates

seamus

Moonbaby wrote: »

A few years back some family wanted to bury their daughter in the back garden and they weren't let.

I imagine it's for the same reason that you can't bury animals in your garden - you never know what kind of odd diseases might make their way into the local water by chance. All it would take is one C.diff. patient to be buried beside a river, and a whole town is boned.

cavedave

seamus

I imagine it's for the same reason that you can't bury animals in your garden - you never know what kind of odd diseases might make their way into the local water by chance. All it would take is one C.diff. patient to be buried beside a river, and a whole town is boned.

You are right there must be all sorts of hygiene rules about dealing with bodies. So bog body cemeteries may not be a runner after all.

Dades

^^ Wow - they buried that guy in his BDSM gear! ^^

Tigrrrr

Why should I care what type of funeral I get? I'll be dead. It's like asking what you want for your 10th birthday when youre already 22.

I've often wondered about this - about the delicate nature of dealing with the dead, respecting the dead, dressing them up in nice clothes, like dolls; reciting prayers and poems and songs to them. It's all very bizarre, they're as dead as banana skins.

We seem to have some sort of morbid pre-occupation with the dead. Take the family that died in the house fire-suicide in the past few week. Pictures of their lives still haunt newspapers and television screens.
As a public, we don't so much talk about what this means in terms of mental health and what we can learn, we mostly just publicly mourn them and feel bad for them, because they are dead. That's foolish, it means nothing to them because they don't exist anymore.

We in our pre-occupation and sensitivities about the dead, must realise we are acting this way for the sake of people that do not exist.

Popinjay

Tigrrrr wrote: »

I've often wondered about this - about the delicate nature of dealing with the dead, respecting the dead, dressing them up in nice clothes, like dolls; reciting prayers and poems and songs to them. It's all very bizarre, they're as dead as banana skins.

As Pratchett put it;

Terry Pratchett wrote:

A more reverential form of garbage disposal

*He was hear last week. I swear on the bible *ahem*

nesf

Tigrrrr wrote: »

We in our pre-occupation and sensitivities about the dead, must realise we are acting this way for the sake of people that do not exist.

I disagree. I don't "respect the dead" for the dead person's sake, I do it for the sake of their living relatives out of respect for them and their loss. I'd have similar respect for whatever ceremony they wanted to have (within reason).

Tigrrrr

nesf wrote: »

I disagree. I don't "respect the dead" for the dead person's sake, I do it for the sake of their living relatives out of respect for them and their loss. I'd have similar respect for whatever ceremony they wanted to have (within reason).

Yes that's perfectly acceptable I suppose. What i really mean is respecting the dead, like for example when kids are admonished for walking on churchyard graves. Even now as an adult, I'd feel bad about doing that, for no logical reason whatsoever!

Obviously, at a memorial or funeral it would be wrong to badmouth the dead for the family's sakes, or be overly liberal with honesty, I think that's quite different and is just a common sense way of being sensitive with people who feel a sense of loss. But as for the dead, **** them, they're dead!

nesf

Tigrrrr wrote: »

Yes that's perfectly acceptable I suppose. What i really mean is respecting the dead, like for example when kids are admonished for walking on churchyard graves. Even now as an adult, I'd feel bad about doing that, for no logical reason whatsoever!

Sure, but the whole walking on graves thing is a social idea. Think of it this way, you (not necessarily you, but others in general) may not like the idea of people not respecting the grave of your late mother/father/brother/child/whatever. The logic of admonishing kids of not respecting graves comes from a broader social idea of what constitutes respect for the dead (which is really respect for those that loved them and miss them if you prefer to think of it that way) and while it might not seem logical to you personally, if you think of it in a broader social context it does make a lot more sense.

Tigrrrr

nesf wrote: »

The logic of admonishing kids of not respecting graves comes from a broader social idea of what constitutes respect for the dead (which is really respect for those that loved them and miss them if you prefer to think of it that way) and while it might not seem logical to you personally, if you think of it in a broader social context it does make a lot more sense.

But the broader social context is already entwined with respect for the dead, not just their survivors. Respect for the dead is set out in the Bible, it's an aspect particularly of the Christian and Jewish faiths. I don't think I buy into the idea that we don't walk on graves just because of respect for survivors. Every November parishes all around the country, indeed around the globe, gather to bless and make holy grave yards which hold what is seen by many (myself included) as simply human junk.

It's odd, I think I can have a good understanding of religious faith, and respect those who have such faith. I just don't get attachment to dead bodies.

nesf

Tigrrrr wrote: »

But the broader social context is already entwined with respect for the dead, not just their survivors.

True, I don't think you can disentangle them, however; my point would be that even if to you it's just a dead body and not worthy of respect in and of itself, there is a good argument to be made for respecting the dead (in some fashion) out of respect for other people's wishes be they rooted in religious belief or whatever.

The key here I think is being reasonable about it. Graveyards are a good example, they are set aside pieces of land where people who want to may come to remember their dead. Now some people, including some religious people don't use them outside of funerals and there is no pressure on them to do so. The line that's usually drawn is that one should show a modicum of respect to graveyards when you are in one but beyond that, no adult is forced to attend them or anything silly like that. It's a good example (in my opinion) of the place of religion in a mostly secular society. Whether you believe or not isn't really what matters, it's that we as a society can respect each other's beliefs within reasonable bounds.

Now if someone wanted to force a Christian burial on everyone who dies, then we'd have a bit of a problem on our hands.

Tigrrrr

Well that's quite true. Respecting some people's respect for the dead is no less valid than respecting their right to their faith, and there's no reason to show disrespect in either case.

It's just more of a personal thing, personally I don't understand why people respect the dead but I respect that they do.

Tomayto/ Tomahto

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Moonbaby wrote: »

And you can't just bury yourself in bog, it has to be in a cemetry afaik.
A few years back some family wanted to bury their daughter in the back garden and they weren't let.

I remember reading somewhere that if you own the land, you can apply to your local planning authority to be buried there. I can't find a link to where I read this, all I can find is info on this in the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3630221.stm
http://www.woodlands.co.uk/blog/conservation/green-burial-can-i-be-buried-in-my-woodland/
http://www.westwiltshire.gov.uk/print/index/advice-benefits/deaths/burial-on-own-land.htm

Zulu

I would like to be be either:
a) fed to the winner of a tiger vs polar bear fight (I'm still convinced the bear will win)
b) have a 5 hour latin requim mass in a stuffy church starting at 12am, to be moved a min of 15 miles in rush hour traffic to a cemetry in the rain. Maximum pain in the arse.

bill_ashmount

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The last time I attended a funeral I was actually disturbed by some of the things the priest said in his sermon. Apparently though, everything he said was quite standard in funeral services and that would be what you'd hear at any funeral.

Funerals and weddings are the same. Most people don't listen so it doesn't bother them. I do and I find it disgusting. I usually stand at the back of the church because I normally leave before the end, I find my patience runs out after about a half an hour of some priest lecturing. Probably shouldn't go in the first place but I do out of respect for the person getting married/buried.

nesf

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Probably shouldn't go in the first place but I do out of respect for teh person getting married/buried.

Meh, anyone who would expect someone to be at the church part of the thing when it obviously bothers them isn't someone worthy of respecting tbh*. Plenty of people skip the church bit and attend either the removal, burial or whatever of the funeral process.




*Ok, this gets waay trickier if you're very closely related to the person in question (ie the dead one or the groom/bride) and your family is touchy about your non-belief. In that case I'd normally say just going and zoning out for the hour is the best strategy for peace/least hassle reasons but that mightn't work for some people who feel very strongly about it.

pH

Never really understood religious funerals, I thought you got judged on your life once you died, so by the time of the funeral the decision is made so to speak.

Now many religions seem to at least hint that although the above is their official line there is some wiggle room for the faithful with prayers. If not what exactly is the point of prayers for the dead? They're already in the most glorious place imaginable (heaven?) or burning in hell, either way I don't quite see what a prayer does for them?

That's not to say I don't understand secular funerals, celebration of a life, a chance for those left behind to come together and pay respect, meet each other, offer condolences etc. Lots of great reasons for a secular funeral, and even the secular parts of a religious one but I cannot understand why a funeral needs a religious element, put another way does the religious funeral (or lack of) make any difference to what happens to the deceased person's eternal soul?

Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

Overheal

screw all that nonsense. All my organs are probably crap anyway. Just cremate my body and spread the ashes somewhere crazy; that way nobody feels compelled to visit my grave or take care of my urn.

gramlab

Regardless of how, where etc. a person dies I see no problem at all attending a funeral mass or whatever. I would be doing it out of respect/friendship for the person or their family. I'm acknowledging the person, not the belief.

JCB

pH wrote: »

does the religious funeral (or lack of) make any difference to what happens to the deceased person's eternal soul?

Good question. I obviously don't know the answer!
Some christian churches say that the person's soul will go to purgatory before being reunited with God, so praying for God to forgive the person's sins on earth would be a reason for a religious funeral. Technically prayers could be said anywhere, but around the coffin of the person does seem like a good place to pray for the person.

Also, the funeral service of the Catholic church involves making a sacrifice to God in honour of the person who has died, again no better time to do this than at the funeral. Since Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, Catholics pray that God will welcome the follower of Jesus into heaven.
Considering that the Catholic person would have started their Christian journey with God at baptism at the church then finishing that earthly life at the church would also make sense.

Galvasean

Zulu wrote: »

tiger vs polar bear fight (I'm still convinced the bear will win)

Too right!

Ultra Classic

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The last time I attended a funeral I was actually disturbed by some of the things the priest said in his sermon. Apparently though, everything he said was quite standard in funeral services and that would be what you'd hear at any funeral.

Got me thinking that in this country it would be hard to avoid religious customs in these circumstances. If you want to be buried, graveyards are normally part of a church. So you'd have to have the standard funeral. Even with cremation, there's normally a priest performing a religious service (as far as I know).

I don't care what they do with me when I go, in fact I hope they don''t waste money on an expensive tombstone and coffin, but I really don't want to have some priest talking about how god has called me back to heaven.

What are people's feelings on this? How much would you let the feelings of your family influence this?

A funeral is the celebration of a life, not the occurrence of the death. It is a "vehicle" for the family to grieve, surrounded by family and friends.
The amount of "humanist" (non-religious) funeral services is on the increase in Ireland. What people have to remember is that when you pass away your funeral arrangements will be arranged by a family member or a person nominated by you. They only way to have your own wishes fulfilled is by you making your own funeral arrangements. A very prudent thing to do is to talk to your family and discuss what you would like.

Any funeral director in Ireland will gladly meet with you and put your wishes down on paper (no payment required). Once this is done you can tell your family you have your funeral planned and who your funeral director is.

The most unusual thing, in my opinion, is that Funerals take place so quickly in Ireland. The deceased is possibly buried within 48 hours of their passing! This short time span does not give the family to come to terms with their loss. The family are in deep shock, no matter how well prepared they thought they were, and before they know it the funeral is over.

Why do families do this to themselves ?? In the UK it's not unusual to have the funeral one or even two weeks after the death.

Zillah

I plan to harness the power of necromancy, as used in this thread, to bring myself back to torment the living.

farmchoice

Ultra Classic wrote: »

A funeral is the celebration of a life, not the occurrence of the death. It is a "vehicle" for the family to grieve, surrounded by family and friends.
The amount of "humanist" (non-religious) funeral services is on the increase in Ireland. What people have to remember is that when you pass away your funeral arrangements will be arranged by a family member or a person nominated by you. They only way to have your own wishes fulfilled is by you making your own funeral arrangements. A very prudent thing to do is to talk to your family and discuss what you would like.

Any funeral director in Ireland will gladly meet with you and put your wishes down on paper (no payment required). Once this is done you can tell your family you have your funeral planned and who your funeral director is.

The most unusual thing, in my opinion, is that Funerals take place so quickly in Ireland. The deceased is possibly buried within 48 hours of their passing! This short time span does not give the family to come to terms with their loss. The family are in deep shock, no matter how well prepared they thought they were, and before they know it the funeral is over.

Why do families do this to themselves ?? In the UK it's not unusual to have the funeral one or even two weeks after the death.

It's just a cultural thing I suppose. The general view in Ireland is that the delay in burring people in Britain is very unusual to the point of being slightly obscene, where the poor families have to wait up to 2 week to bury their dead.

Bloodwing

Ultra Classic wrote: »

A funeral is the celebration of a life, not the occurrence of the death. It is a "vehicle" for the family to grieve, surrounded by family and friends.
The amount of "humanist" (non-religious) funeral services is on the increase in Ireland. What people have to remember is that when you pass away your funeral arrangements will be arranged by a family member or a person nominated by you. They only way to have your own wishes fulfilled is by you making your own funeral arrangements. A very prudent thing to do is to talk to your family and discuss what you would like.

Any funeral director in Ireland will gladly meet with you and put your wishes down on paper (no payment required). Once this is done you can tell your family you have your funeral planned and who your funeral director is.

The most unusual thing, in my opinion, is that Funerals take place so quickly in Ireland. The deceased is possibly buried within 48 hours of their passing! This short time span does not give the family to come to terms with their loss. The family are in deep shock, no matter how well prepared they thought they were, and before they know it the funeral is over.

Why do families do this to themselves ?? In the UK it's not unusual to have the funeral one or even two weeks after the death.

I think the general idea is to get them in the ground quickly so we can all head to the pub.

Jimoslimos

Ultra Classic wrote: »

The most unusual thing, in my opinion, is that Funerals take place so quickly in Ireland. The deceased is possibly buried within 48 hours of their passing! This short time span does not give the family to come to terms with their loss. The family are in deep shock, no matter how well prepared they thought they were, and before they know it the funeral is over.

Why do families do this to themselves ?? In the UK it's not unusual to have the funeral one or even two weeks after the death.

Not sure how a rotting corpse helps anyone come to terms with their loss.

I think other cultures (Islamic maybe?) have strict limits on time to burial as well. Makes sense when you consider the risk of disease transmission.

seamus

Bloodwing wrote: »

I think the general idea is to get them in the ground quickly so we can all head to the pub.

Tongue-in-cheek though it might be, I suspect you're partially right - as an emotionally quite repressed nation, delaying in burying the body is probably seen as unnecessarily dragging out the death and a quick burial allows someone to suck it up and move on.

Though modern thinking now I reckon is that a longer mourning period gives the family time to comes to terms with the death. Spending time with the actual body would also (IMO) allow someone to accept the death faster than without. Even though dead, most people like to hold some kind of conversations with their loved ones, but the lack of a body means that it's an imaginary conversation in your head. Speaking to a lifeless body is equally fruitless, but the definitive lack of response would psychologically reinforce the notion of death and provide more closure (again, IMO).

There may also be a religious aspect to our fast burials - perhaps it was seen as unholy to have the body lying in state on unconsecrated ground (i.e. the person's home or the undertaker's), and so a swift removal of the body to the church was preferable. There may also have been some form of rent payable to the church for this privilege.
The church, not delighted to have a body sitting there for a week of masses, would then encourage the family to bury the deceased on the next non-holy day.

magicbastarder

i have read that the long time to bury in england is a hangover from when royalty were buried, and you'd have to allow time for dignitaries to be informed and travel to attend the funeral.

my own view is that it's better to get it over and done with, rather than hanging around in a kind of limbo waiting for your loved one to be buried.

Ultra Classic

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Not sure how a rotting corpse helps anyone come to terms with their loss.

I think other cultures (Islamic maybe?) have strict limits on time to burial as well. Makes sense when you consider the risk of disease transmission.

Embalming alleviates the need for "fast" burials. It is an astringent so the risk of transmission is almost eradicated. It also gives a "lifelike" appearance as apart from the greyish pall of death.

Other cultures may not allow embalming due to religious beliefs and the hot climate does not help either.

Ultra Classic

[/QUOTE] Though modern thinking now I reckon is that a longer mourning period gives the family time to comes to terms with the death. Spending time with the actual body would also (IMO) allow someone to accept the death faster than without. Even though dead, most people like to hold some kind of conversations with their loved ones, but the lack of a body means that it's an imaginary conversation in your head. Speaking to a lifeless body is equally fruitless, but the definitive lack of response would psychologically reinforce the notion of death and provide more closure (again, IMO).[/QUOTE]


That's exactly my point.

kylith

We just don't have a tradition of embalming here, so any corpse left above ground for more than a day or two would get pretty ripe.