Arming our Gardai ?

ironsight

O.K so the Rank-and-file Gardaí will sit down today and debate about uniformed officers being armed or not.

The issue from our perspective, well mine anyway, If and it's a big IF, they decide that they want to be armed, will this have a knock on effect to the members of the shooting community, in that it will make the Garda authorities more aware of what they are dealing with.

Would it really be with such great regret that we now have to consider the possibility of saying goodby to the our mainly unarmed force ?

I'm just curious as to how people on the board here would react, and what your views on the subject are.

afatbollix

i dont think they want to arm all gards but like the british where the have the armed reponse units.. which would be called in if there is an issue with a gun..

Kareir

I think that they want to give gardaí on motorbikes guns, as they will be able to get to the scene quickly, and wont be there alone (well, they might be alone, but they'll be armed) while the slower reinforcements arrive?

_Kar.

dimebag249

We already have an armed Emergency Response Unit anto. Detectives are also armed. I think the discussion is primarily about arming motorcycle Guards, as they tend to get to the scenes of serious crimes first and may become a target for criminals that are still on the scene.

I do not think it would benefit the shooting community in any way. If anything it might further convince some Guards that guns are for shooting people, and that only the state needs to have access to them.

But who knows?

EDIT: Sorry, Karier got there first... I can't type.

bitemybanger

This isnt the relevant forum for this discussion, Mods, please move

IRLConor

If we can keep the discussion within the bounds of "what would this decision mean for the attitude of the Gardai towards firearms and firearms owners" and steer clear of the RKBA aspects (as per the charter) then I reckon this thread can stay here for now. If it strays too far off topic I'll try and find another home for it.

IRLConor

I suspect that arming rank and file Gardai could only benefit firearms owners in one way: training. If the Gardai were to be regularly armed then (I hope) they would receive further training on firearms matters. With further training and familiarity with firearms they might lose some of the fear of the unknown that some of them might have.

On the other hand, as dimebag249 mentions, if they get lots of training to shoot at people then their attitude towards guns may be that they are weapons and have no other use than as a weapon. It's hard to see which way it would pan out.

dimebag249

Oh, I'm so, so sorry for holding my political beliefs Brother Conor...


Well alright then, I guess I was pushing my luck with that, but he started the thread.:D

Rovi

dimebag249 wrote: »

Oh, I'm so, so sorry for holding my political beliefs Brother Conor...

Why the 'attitude', he was agreeing that you could turn out to be right in the future

Jonty

This would probably be better in emergency services forum.

jwshooter

IRLConor wrote: »

I suspect that arming rank and file Gardai could only benefit firearms owners in one way: training. If the Gardai were to be regularly armed then (I hope) they would receive further training on firearms matters. With further training and familiarity with firearms they might lose some of the fear of the unknown that some of them might have.

On the other hand, as dimebag249 mentions, if they get lots of training to shoot at people then their attitude towards guns may be that they are weapons and have no other use than as a weapon. It's hard to see which way it would pan out.

i am all for it , but not the rank and file ,there is some ole boys dodge n around hear ,i would not let them have a steak knife.they should be trained from day one to be armed .the ERU is one thing but each station should have highly trained members .do our gardai have a sniper unit .with the down turn economy robberys and the like will be on the up and there s always limerick

meathstevie

I for one would applaud the decision to give the gents and ladies policing the streets on our behalf access to a proper self defence tool but I don't realy see much relevance for sport shooters in this issue. Having said that it might just hammer home the point to a lot of gardai out there that a firearm as such is completely harmless and that the only factor making it dangerous is the criminal intent of the user.

jwshooter

meathstevie wrote: »

I for one would applaud the decision to give the gents and ladies policing the streets on our behalf access to a proper self defence tool but I don't realy see much relevance for sport shooters in this issue. Having said that it might just hammer home the point to a lot of gardai out there that a firearm as such is completely harmless and that the only factor making it dangerous is the criminal intent of the user.

guns don,t kill people ..people kill people

Sparks

This thread's rapidly drifting away from the sole tangential relation it might have to sport shooting or shooting sports.

On that tangent, I'd disagree that it would benefit us in any way. In the 1980s, according to the Gardai, 80% of the force were on the warrant card system for firearms. Today, again according to the gardai, that number has fallen to around 30%; but those who were trained would not have suddenly forgotten what a firearm was. The problem was the nature of the training which was exclusively along the lines of shooting at other human beings and being shot at themselves. This form of training does not engender benevolant thoughts towards firearms in any person, Garda or otherwise.

dimebag249

Rovi wrote: »

Why the 'attitude', he was agreeing that you could turn out to be right in the future

Sorry Rovi, my attitude was jovial, I had mah tongue in mah cheek. I'm maybe not so great at expressing my tone in writing, but I thought the smiley helped!

Grizzly 45

I'm with Sparks on this one..
There is no simmilarties between police style/combat shooting and sports shooting.Even practical /dynamic shooting.

Would it make for better relations between the civillian shooter and armed Garda??Possibly,maybe,depends.Possibly get some Gardai down to your local range to improve their shooting standards and thereby get a moreaquainted with civillian shooters.Which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Big trouble here is I think is what the Gardai said themselves ..training...How do you train a bunch of people who might never have held a gun into professional marksmen in a very short period of time from a scratch programme as of now?? If you take some and give them a crash course in firearms training,and you have a wrongful death by shooting.I can see the lawyers lining up for custom from the victims fammilies,or worse from the Gardas fammily if one is shot in the course of duty,and it turns out Garda X wasn't trained to the highest EU/US standard in police tactis in shooting.

This will take years to impliment properly,set up training facilities,recruit competant instructors,etc.all in all it would create some major upheaval in the Gardai which was envisaged by noone as an armed force and proably the State as well.
If they do want to be armed,there are less leathl options[and less risk of law suit] weaponary out there than firearms at the moment. EG Tasers,or the LEO version of the paintball gun with CS pepper balls.

Some might deride this,but even having a firearm as a LEO,does not ensure an end to the problems of society either.Are we paying our Gardai enough, now armed,to really go into harms way???
One old NY police officer I knew said he survived three shootouts in his career,by [1] not putting his head up over the parapet in either the street or the office[2]Not being the first guy through the door[3] remembering he had a wife and two kids,and that the State of NY didnt pay him enough to be a hero,and that the police officers widows pension wasnt that great really .
I think many Gardai would agree with those sentiments too,wether they would be armed or not.

Sparks and Grizzly agreeing on somthing???

Lock and stick thread! Maybe start playing the lotto as well!

spideog7

I heard (here) before that the Gardaí don't have many ranges, surely and armed unit would need regular training, even the multitude of armed detectives nowadays. Where do they train and why don't they have better ranges and facilities to train ?

cavan shooter

I don't envy guards the environment that they have to work in, they have the thin end of a wedge dealing with people where in their world life is worthless. I dont believe arming them will prevent or protect them nor do I believe that it will benefit shooters/shooting community all to often you read in the UK shooting magazines of armed police turning up where guys are shooting pigeons etc etc alot of responsibility goes with carrying a firearm and alot of adrenalin starts pumping when you get called to a potential armed incident, again in the uk shooters and armed response unit contacts have been fairly frought and BASC have gone on record and expressed concern.

No don't arm the guards, have more ERU's have armed patrols and going of tangent slightly any attack on a guard with the intent to kill should bring the death sentence, now that should level the playing field... :eek:

triskell

This is a revelant discussion and I personally think they should be armed. but i don't belive it should be discussed in the sports- shooting forum.
come on mods move it

Rovi

This one's on borrowed time folks.
The link between the worthy subject of arming the Gardai and Sport Shooting/Shooting Sports is tenuous at best, and while most posters have made a valiant effort to work with that tenuous link, we can all see that it's all to easy for the thread to wander off into subjects for which this forum has no mandate.
The broader issue would be much better discussed on some of the other forums mentioned above.

As regards moving this thread, I think it's gone a bit too far for that, with a fair amount of material here that's pretty specific to this forum, and we're not being paid enough to try pruning it to make it suitable for somewhere else
Neither am I (or the other mods, I suspect) inclined to try pruning it back to fit with more comfortably with the Shooting Charter.

As such, and unless some sparkling points relevant to the shooting sports appear here soon, this thread will be getting locked in the very near future.
We'll see what it looks like in the daylight tomorrow.

Bananaman

Folks,

From the perspective of the shooting sports I think it would be a great leap forward if more of the force were to be "armed" in whatever guise that takes.

The bottom line is that in the event that more Gardai are "armed" then more Gardai will need not only official training (Tactical stuff which we will never hear about so no point discussing it) but they also will also need Range time so that they themselves feel they are safe and proficient in the use and care of their assigned firearm.

Where will they get this range time I hear you ask - who will show them how to be "proficient" - who is best suited to do so - why us fine sportsmen and sportswomen of course. This would have a number of knock on effects.

a) More and More Gardai would be exposed to different shooting sports.
b) More and More Gardai will join shooting clubs
c) More and more Gardai will start to compete in more shooting sports
d) We may start to see Garda teams in more shooting sports.

All of this simply leads to a more informed force - some of them at least.

Personally, I see absolutely no downside to that and quite look forward to kicking their asses in a few disciplines. (That part may have been a dream)

I realise that the "training" will be the part furnished by the state but I would hope that individual Gardai would be interested and the force in general - through their representative bodies - would promote civilian sports participation.

B'Man

Rew

I think it would have a big positive knock on for the sport. Alot of these points have been made here.

-They will need ranges leading to public private partnerships and a precident for ranges to be setup/built
-More Gardai will get in to shooting as a sport after enjoying it from a work perspective
-It may prompt internal taget competitions like the army run promoting taret shooting as a sport within the Gardai and participation in the wold police games
-More indvidules within the Gardai will get exposed to firearms and knowledge will be higher then it currently is
-were talking about radically different and modernised training then what the rank and file Gardai have done to date

Garda firearms training that Sparks mentions back in the 80's was a joke and wouldn't stand up to the course that most clubs run. Qualifaction was essentially being able to pull the trigger with the muzzle in the general direction of the target. I have shared ranges with them in the past and they wouldnt be allowed on a club range.

All Gardai used to get training in Templemore but thats been scrapped and somthing that should be brought back but with a revised syllabus (in the same what they they have heavily revised the syllabus down there in general)

Whats been talked about is arming certain groups of Gardai (such as the motorcycles) but mainly its the RSU's (regional response units AKA 2nd tier response units). These are to be the first on the ground to any armed incident (not just firearms incidents). There looking at using the public order (riot) units to draw the members from as these have already got extensive fromal training in high pressure situations and restraint in the use of force.

I know alot of young open minded Gardai who would love to get this type of training and get a better understaning of firearms (and want to shoot in their spare time). The knock on will be (given a few years lead time) that the Garda who takes on the FAO role in a station is more likely to have delt with firearms and have a better understanding.

RSU's are already being established and trained so that side of it is already happening. FOr the moment it looks like they will have to change clothes and get unmarkerd cars to reposned to an incident (which is ridiculas considering the time sensitive nature of an incident!) as its against the Garda Code to be in uniform or use a marked car while armed.

Grizzly 45

In an ideal world it would be brilliant lads.And dont get me wrong,I would be all for as much inter mingling of the Gardai and civvie shooters as is possible.However ,it is when politics and procedure get involved in the matter do things go awry.
What will the procedure be for Garda officers with firearms before or after they commence or end their dury time for example??will they be allowed to take their duty arm home or does it have to be signed in at the station??Put it another way,you lugged this gun around on your hip for 8/10 hours for a six day week.Do you really want to see it for your day off again??
Will the instructors in the Garda have a positive outlook on civvie firearms ownership..Or would it be a "right you lot are trained and consider yourselves elite and are the thin blue line between law&order and chaos out there.Those civvies with guns are all potential nutters anyway,and you are not to trust, or faternatise with themas little as possible..."attitude?
Sadly,alot of that attitude does exist in LEOand military firearm training circles.
Also,and not casting asperations on the Gardai in general,but they do have their "bad and bent coppers" as well.Will they have a good enough psychological screening programme to take out these people before they are entrusted with a deadly weapon??Could say the same for us too.But then we are not going to be going into harms way everyday of our working lives,and have to live and deal with the psychlogical trauma of a shootout.

It definately would be a major undertaking and it could have both good and bad points for both gunowners and Gardai.But it would take years for it to come down to see any benefits for both communities,and it looks like the GRA conference has put it down as a NO idea as of todays papers.

spideog7

spideog7 wrote: »

I heard (here) before that the Gardaí don't have many ranges, surely and armed unit would need regular training, even the multitude of armed detectives nowadays. Where do they train and why don't they have better ranges and facilities to train ?

Sorry I asked this in here because I thought that the lads into target shooting with pistols, might know how much regular training it takes to have the kind of accuracy required.
I also wanted to know if the armed Gardaí use sporting ranges for training, i.e. non-sporting purposes, so to speak.

Sparks

I can't see the Gardai using civilian ranges spideog. Leaving aside the petty ego issues that would arise, there are the more serious issues regarding usage patterns, security and liability.

I also can't see the GRA overriding the Commissioner on the subject of arming the Gardai in the first place.

Grizzly 45

spideog7 wrote: »

Sorry I asked this in here because I thought that the lads into target shooting with pistols, might know how much regular training it takes to have the kind of accuracy required.
I also wanted to know if the armed Gardaí use sporting ranges for training, i.e. non-sporting purposes, so to speak.

The scuttlebutt is that the Gardai viewed a practical pistol match,and were impressed with the speed and accuracy of the shooters.On asking how long would it take to train people up to that speed and accuracy,they were told many months and many thousands of rounds PA.
The sounds of jaws hitting the floor was apprently impressive.

On useage,well the Gardai are not going to be using it every week.It is usually a monthly or bi annual affair[or was] over a morning during the working week.

Rew

Sparks wrote: »

I can't see the Gardai using civilian ranges spideog. Leaving aside the petty ego issues that would arise, there are the more serious issues regarding usage patterns, security and liability.

I also can't see the GRA overriding the Commissioner on the subject of arming the Gardai in the first place.

Maybe not this Commissioner but the RSU's are being created as we speak and the next step is a change to the Garda code and uniformed officers carrying guns. What I think will happen (I gave a hand in to some research on this whole topic) is that a tactical uniform will replace the standard garda blues for firearms gardai. ERU already have black tactical overalls.

I think that its younger members who will change the bad attitudes to Civvie shooters, the older ones are die hards and you cant teach an old dog new tricks

jwshooter

Rew wrote: »

Maybe not this Commissioner but the RSU's are being created as we speak and the next step is a change to the Garda code and uniformed officers carrying guns. What I think will happen (I gave a hand in to some research on this whole topic) is that a tactical uniform will replace the standard garda blues for firearms gardai. ERU already have black tactical overalls.

I think that its younger members who will change the bad attitudes to Civvie shooters, the older ones are die hards and you cant teach an old dog new tricks

tazers bean bags and the like ,,less lethal is the catch word ,tazer international have a tazer thats shot from a standard shot gun works by incapacitating with a electric shock knocking down its targets for 20 seconds its accurate to 65 feet .could be the way to go . failing that the gud old hollow point and the black tactical vests would be sliming

ironsight

As the P.S.N.I currently employ civilian instructors (I dont know how many) it is feasible that out own force may do the same.

I wouldn't like this to turn overly political, I'm just curious to see how people think the expansion of firearms within the Garda force might benefit our own cause if any.


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The edited bit
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I must appologise and in retrospect point out that there have been some bloody great point stated here even if they were slightly wide of the mark, that however may be my fault in that I posed the initial question in a somewhat roundabout manner, but please keep it up.

Bananaman

The scuttlebutt is that the Gardai viewed a practical pistol match,and were impressed with the speed and accuracy of the shooters.

I've been at a few matches where there were Gardai present but not in an official capacity.

It bodes well for the sport that they are officially showing an interest in it as an example of the standard to which civilian sports shooting has risen.

On asking how long would it take to train people up to that speed and accuracy,they were told many months and many thousands of rounds PA.

It would hardly be news to them. I'm sure that they use the same cost tables as the army for maintaining a persons accuracy.

many months

I'm shooting almost two years now - regularly for almost a year and a half I'm only starting to get good now.

B'Man