Small garden wall

backboiler

I'm looking to build a wall across the garden at the back of the house. Originally there was a slope in the garden, 600 mm drop over 11 m, sloping towards the house. I've dug out the lower section and brought in some new top-soil to make the back portion (almost) flat making a single 600 mm "step" in ground level.

The "step" is not a straight line instead more of an S-shape, and my intention is to use the curve both as an edge to the upper level and as a seating feature around a patio at the lower level. So, I intend building a wall 300 mm thick (opposing edges at radius 1.75 m and 2.05 m from two centre points) at the "step". Maybe some pictures would help: I'll try and post some later.

For anyone who gets the gist of what I'm saying, what's the best way to build this wall? I've considered blocks, bricks and poured concrete. I intend it to be brick fronted when finished. Given the relatively tight curve on it I thought blocks would be difficult to work with when it came time to apply the brick finish and there's the question of retaining the 600 mm soil from the upper layer. As it is the step is staying up free standing so barring expansion there probably wouldn't be much force on the wall.

the GALL

yea give us a picture/look

backboiler

The first attachment (Step.png) is what I hope to finish up with.
The second (Reality.png) is how it looks at the minute.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Sorry for the off topic response (look at it as a free bump) but what software did you use to create that pic? Is it easy enough to use?

backboiler

It's the free version of Sketchup, now owned by Google (http://sketchup.google.com). It's very easy to use for fairly simple plans but more complicated designs will probably need fair bit of forethought and a few from-the-start attempts to get them right. It's heavy enough on the computer as well, once there are more than a few hundred lines in it. I use it on a fairly high-end computer (dual 2.33 GHz, 4 GiB RAM, 512 MiB nvidia) and it often goes for a quiet think to itself when panning and rotating around the design and there's the odd bit of unusual shading every so often.

the GALL

backboiler wrote: »

I'm looking to build a wall across the garden at the back of the house. Originally there was a slope in the garden, 600 mm drop over 11 m, sloping towards the house. I've dug out the lower section and brought in some new top-soil to make the back portion (almost) flat making a single 600 mm "step" in ground level.

The "step" is not a straight line instead more of an S-shape, and my intention is to use the curve both as an edge to the upper level and as a seating feature around a patio at the lower level. So, I intend building a wall 300 mm thick (opposing edges at radius 1.75 m and 2.05 m from two centre points) at the "step". Maybe some pictures would help: I'll try and post some later.

For anyone who gets the gist of what I'm saying, what's the best way to build this wall? I've considered blocks, bricks and poured concrete. I intend it to be brick fronted when finished. Given the relatively tight curve on it I thought blocks would be difficult to work with when it came time to apply the brick finish and there's the question of retaining the 600 mm soil from the upper layer. As it is the step is staying up free standing so barring expansion there probably wouldn't be much force on the wall.

nice garden
starting off with you foundations
Mix the concrete at 4:1:1
this should b3 to a depth of 6" ish(MAKE SURE IT'S LEVEL)
Some re-bar wouldn't go a miss either
the foundation should be poured at the same level all the way across
the width depends on how yoyu'll lay your blocks
(4" solids on the edge plus the brick plus the cavity plus an over hang on each side)
to join the two use wall ties
How are you going to cap it off? this will also goveren whether you lay the 4" on the flat or edge
Getting around the curve is not a problem as the blocks can be cut in a wedge shape to accomadate this
put a water proof membrane/ pebbles behind the block wall this will aid dranage and stoop water if any seeping through

backboiler

Thanks, the. It'll be nice alright if it ever gets finished. I'm doing everything myself and learning as I go along so the two biggest problems are not knowing the usual names used for different things and materials and not knowing what handy labour-saving things are available, which would be obvious to someone working closer to the building trades.

I haven't decided what the top of the wall will look like yet. It might be bricks like the front face or it might be something more like 300-odd mm paving slabs, maybe of natural stone.

I think the mistake I was making was thinking that the bricks had to be up against the face of the blocks. It makes sense to just tie between them, now that you say it though.

I'm reading in this that you think that a single block wall tied to a brick wall will do the job of withstanding the soil.
As well, I'll have a fair pile of stones of various sizes left after the soil is done. Can I use some or all of these in the foundation mix?

the GALL

you could use them stones for a hard core foundation under the concrete just make sure there well compacted but for the concrete you should really use gravel looking at the photo's again i'd say a tonne of loose ggravel would go a long way to finishing the job
let us know how your gettin on throughout your project
I do gardens and the like if your stuck let us know and i may be able to point you in the right direction
Roy:)

paulmallon

i have just finished a garden wall using acheson and glover garden walling.
very simple to build (no mortar) and looks well. i have about 600 step in levels also. try their website,its anchor bayfield garden walling. price wise not sure ,migth be more expensive to buy,but easy to build.

backboiler

the GALL wrote: »

you could use them stones for a hard core foundation under the concrete just make sure there well compacted but for the concrete you should really use gravel looking at the photo's again i'd say a tonne of loose ggravel would go a long way to finishing the job
let us know how your gettin on throughout your project
I do gardens and the like if your stuck let us know and i may be able to point you in the right direction
Roy:)

Thanks, Roy, I'll no probably be back on about something or other alright. Progress will probably be slow enough, with me at work 5 days a week and plenty of other distractions at weekends but I'll put up the odd picture as things get done.

My immediate priority is to get a bit of grass growing on at least half of the upper area so there's some space to use during the Summer. It'd make more sense to set it after the building work is done, of course, but that could be a month or two off yet and there's no useable space out the back. Very frustrating on these nice days not to be able to put a table and chairs out for a few hours. Hopefully I'll get that done this week.

backboiler

paulmallon wrote: »

i have just finished a garden wall using acheson and glover garden walling.
very simple to build (no mortar) and looks well. i have about 600 step in levels also. try their website,its anchor bayfield garden walling. price wise not sure ,migth be more expensive to buy,but easy to build.

Yeah, I'd seen these alright but they seem to all have that lip on the back that means each course has to be set back from the one below, giving a slope back towards the top of the wall. That slope would make it awkward to use the top of the wall as a seat.

backboiler

I know I said I'd be slow but I didn't expect to get this little done in the 7 weeks since I was last on. Anyway, grass was set in mid-May, the day before the hot spell and taking no chances I watered it every day for the first two weeks and every so often after that until it started raining again. The result is a mop of green stuff that looks like it's here to stay. That done, I went and got a few bits of building materials: 6" blocks, bricks, sand, gravel, cement. That delivery arrived towards the end of last week.

I had finished digging out the 400 mm-deep trench for the main part of the lower wall so started on the foundation for that part. I threw about 100 mm of stones along the 4.5 x 0.5 m trench and packed them down as well as I could. On top and through this went the 150 mm thick layer of concrete and the result is in the attached picture.

Next comes building the wall itself. I'm wondering, would a wall tie for every block be overdoing it or what's the recommended interval?
The plan is to start this during the week.

foamcutter

BB,

there's information about garden retaining walls here gardenplansireland.com

You may need to look at putting in weep holes or a drain to prevent water building up behind the wall.

To late now but you could have built a 9" wall and used brick slips to face the wall............... Next time !!

Good luck

i71jskz5xu42pb

backboiler wrote: »

I know I said I'd be slow but I didn't expect to get this little done in the 7 weeks since I was last on.

You're doing better than me. Apart from a big clear out I've not made it past Sketchup!
Maybe you should stay off the beer (Becks, right?)

backboiler

@ foamcutter
I've seen that board on gardenplansireland alright and found it useful and have taken its advice on board, especially on the drainage thing. Don't want the wall coming through the back door one day!

@ PMan
I was at that design stage for a long time myself before I got a start made. The beer was a once- (or twice-) off, I assure you. The fridge needed clearing out. Stella, not Becks. Normally wouldn't touch either of them but when there's a thirst...

the GALL

backboiler wrote: »

I know I said I'd be slow but I didn't expect to get this little done in the 7 weeks since I was last on. Anyway, grass was set in mid-May, the day before the hot spell and taking no chances I watered it every day for the first two weeks and every so often after that until it started raining again. The result is a mop of green stuff that looks like it's here to stay. That done, I went and got a few bits of building materials: 6" blocks, bricks, sand, gravel, cement. That delivery arrived towards the end of last week.

I had finished digging out the 400 mm-deep trench for the main part of the lower wall so started on the foundation for that part. I threw about 100 mm of stones along the 4.5 x 0.5 m trench and packed them down as well as I could. On top and through this went the 150 mm thick layer of concrete and the result is in the attached picture.

Next comes building the wall itself. I'm wondering, would a wall tie for every block be overdoing it or what's the recommended interval?
The plan is to start this during the week.

It looks like you headin in the right direction so far
wall ties should be
cavity width horizontal spacing vertical spacing no per metre
50-75 900 450 2.5
76-110 750 450 3.5
give or take
for the drainage backfill behind the inner leaf with washed stone(dont forget the membrane aswell)
just looked at the last picture you put up do you have a gully trap/ drain anywhere on the left
hand side of that picture if you do put in a french drain from your new wall runninng into it this will also do for any runoff from your patio aswell
looks great so far keep it up

backboiler

Useful as always, Roy.
Would the likes of Chadwicks have that damp proof membrane? Is that what it's called or does it go by other names?
No drains in as such yet but the slope is towards the existing drain so will lead towards it eventually.

the GALL

the membrane you looking for is geo textile but for the job your doing i dont think it comes in a roll that small (im not been smart)the reason for the roll would be to allow water to flow but keep the soil from flowing into the stone(does that make sence). So if you used a weed barrier, that should do I think, it comes in 5mx1m rolls you get it in any hardware garden centre. I use that google sketch up myself so if you dont get what im on about Ill draw it up for ya and pm it over
Roy

the GALL

hey backboiler
how's the garden going?

backboiler

Latest is that I've been watching rain falling damn near all the time I've been at the house over the last few weeks.
I made a start on raising the level of the back wall of the garden. It's about 1.5 m of 200 mm thick mass concrete. The plan is to raise it four courses of 6" blocks on the flat. I've done two of these courses at this stage. Having never laid blocks before, this was a learning experience. I'll be winning no prizes for neatness or anything and some of the blocks are a bit off level but one end of the wall is at the same as the other and overall it's in a straight line so it'll do.
I also got a chance to put down the first course of blocks on the curved lower wall as well. Having laid them out dry I saw that there'd be up to 50 mm gap between them at some points so cut the ends of them to make a more consistent 10-odd mm gap between each pair. That took a few hours in itself even though there's only 10 blocks in each course. I did a better job of laying these blocks than with the other wall, probably because they were on the ground (so alble to stand over them) and because I was laying them on edge so they were easier to move around a bit on the mortar. Drainage pipes went in at each end and in the middle as well.
With the bit of mortar I had left I laid the first few of the bricks, which are a damn sight easier to work with again. These first ones will be bleow ground level so pointing isn't an issue but when I get above ground it could be interesting. I'll probably go for black in the joints, would I be best mixing some dye into the main mix or just pointing up afterwards with black mortar or just use plain stuff and paint in the black after all's done? The bricks are kind of yellow coloured.
No pictures as yet but maybe later this evening if I get home before dark.

Thanks for the interest anyway I'll keep the updates coming as I get through this.

backboiler

Pictures, as hinted at, are attached.

First picture is the lower curved wall. The line that the facing edge of the bricks will follow is visible along one side of the foundation. Some kind of optical illusion in the picture makes that 4th-last block look well off vertical, maybe it's because of the change in the curve. Looks better in reality anyway.

Second picture is the back straight wall viewed from the lane out the back.

I did another bit on the lower wall between showers last night but the camera decided to lose the picture I took of it this morning. :mad:

backboiler

Progress continues to be slow, final block and 3rd last brick course is started. No pictures as yet but I'll post when it's finished.

A question now regarding the next stage: the steps.
Attached are some images that hopefully will help explain what I'm on about.
First is just a reminder of what's going on, showing the steps in context.
Second is a view from closer to the ground showing the intended elevation of the steps.
The plan is to use paving slabs on top of two courses of bricks to give a 150 mm rise per step, with 4 steps totalling 600 mm overall. Eack slab will "overlap" the bottom brick so they don't add to the riser height. They don't go in under the bricks of the next higher step. I think the second image shows this.
Each step will have the same area, with each edge defined by arcs of circles 1750 mm radius. There will be a 40 mm overhang on each step.
If anyone's still listening, I'm wondering if there's a particular way I can cut the paving slabs to either minimise cutting or to give the best appearance. I haven't decided what angle the slabs in the main paved area at the bottom will be but the wall capping will be cut so that flattened V-shaped wedges follow the wall's curve. The size of the slabs in the images should be about the same as the real thing (400 x 400 x 40 mm).

the GALL

before you start the steps, just check the heights you working to and the lay out. The way i've measured up it's not working out for me
So you've got
two course of brick (width of brick? 40mm each?)
Three beds of mortor (30mm)
one course of slab (40mm)
Do you see where im coming from?
Starting from the patio proper
1)continue the course of brick(x2) around the arc of the steps
2)back fill behind the steps with hardcore 'stones'
3)Lay the slab with a thick bed of mortor to make up the height difference of the brick and slab
let the slab run under the next course of brick (riser of step two)
continue as 1,2,3
as above check the height of each step you should have them in and around 170mm
when laying the slabs start from the front of step and work back twords the next riser just make sure you cover each slab with enough fat that they wont start rockin when walked on
as for the cuttin of the arc....... leave it with me, she wants a lift to the shops ill be back

backboiler

Hope you enjoyed your shopping trip
I see where you're coming from but I'm thinking of doing it a bit different.
The second and higher steps will all have their brick risers at the same level as the brick course of the wall, just like the first one. Bricks are 65 mm high each. Add in two 10 mm mortar joints, as you said, and we're at 150 mm. The on top of that goes the 40 mm paving slab (+10 mm joint). Yes, the total height is 200 mm but the lower brick course of the first (lowest) step is 50 mm below the top surface of the main paving area so the actual rise of the step is only 150 mm. The next step's brick riser will then start the same level (50 mm) below the step slab to give the same rise in level. The slab will butt up against the brick instead of going under it, if you see what I mean. I suppose it's a matter of extending the founsation that the risers go on out a bit so the edge of the slab rests on it at the same level. I suppose to encourage a bit of water runoff I'd want to subtract a few mm off the bottom joint and add to the top.

The height of the brick courses in the main wall in the previously attached images is exactly as it will be when finished: the first visible course starts below the top of the paving level. For some reason Sketchup messed up the display of the brick texture on the curved steps but the horizontal lines in it as as planned.

Jesus it's hard to describe something like this in words. Point, grab and grunt is a lot more efficient.

Another thing, what the f... is "fat" to the initiated? I'm not greasing my steps :eek: They could be dangerous enough as it is!

the GALL

Yea we went to see Batman .....
Guess what she wants for her Birthday, ok back to the building,
yea I see where your coming from that'll work just about fine just try to keep the step at 170ish mm if not (and I know it sounds silly ) you could be creating a trip hazard
Also for your heights/levels on the Patio to work out you may want to start at the bottom riser and work back from there.
The slab will need to be put down on a bed of mortor to make it 'stick'.
As for the 'Fat' go back the sketch up and look at the way the slabs are laid.....some have a large(Fat) area on the step and some have a small(no fat) area on the step, the small one will/may come loose.
The cutting of the slabs will have to be done with a consaw/9" grinder not the easiest of jobs.
Still it's looking good

backboiler

Eh, I haven't seen the film (useless at getting to the cinema these days) but I'm getting all kinds of unsettling images as to what she wants. Right, as you say, back to the work at hand...

I think I'm kind of stuck at using 150 mm for the steps because I've just gone out and tried a 680 mm high wall for size - top of wall is to double as a seat, remember? - and it's too high for comfort; more like resting on the edge of a kitchen table. I suppose I could have a small step running around the bottom edge of the wall but I don't think it'd look great.

A few months back I dug out the steps from the clay and they've worked out so far (no evidence of kick-marks on the front edges) so I'm just going to have to hope for the best.

I'm itching to get on with this but the weather and other priorities - organising a wedding for later this year amongst them - are doing their best to deflect my efforts. Ah well.

This thread has turned into a bit of a two-way conversation, I've noticed. Is everyone else uninterested or just deferring to the GALL's (much valued) opinions, I wonder.

batman2000

backboiler wrote: »

just deferring to the GALL's (much valued) opinions, QUOTE]

This is a great read......!

Where's the latest pictures??????

backboiler

Pictures, you say?
Two attached images show the wall as of today.
Visible are some of the blocks of the third and final course laid out "dry", some of them cut into wedge shapes.
The rain of the last few days has splashed up a lot of dirt onto the front face of the wall making it look dirty but I've found that it brushes off easy enough when it's dry. This won't be a problem when the ground is paved.

batman2000

backboiler wrote: »

Pictures, you say?
Two attached images show the wall as of today.
Visible are some of the blocks of the third and final course laid out "dry", some of them cut into wedge shapes.
The rain of the last few days has splashed up a lot of dirt onto the front face of the wall making it look dirty but I've found that it brushes off easy enough when it's dry. This won't be a problem when the ground is paved.

Good job backboiler very neat.......looking at what you have done, I might not be so aprehensive about doing such a job

the GALL

looking good,
backboiler,
looking good.

backboiler

Thanks lads. It'd want to be right seeing as I've probably only managed to lay an average of about half a brick a day!
Batman, you'll post up your own project when you get started, I hope...