How helpful do you find the strategy forum?

NickyOD

What the title says. It's an anonymous poll but If you vote please give your reasoning.

KevIRL

invisible poll?

[nicK]

i'm all for it..
i find there's only very few people i would listen to anyway so it doesn't have much of an effect on how i would play a hand differently but it's always nice to know how other people think about hands..

[edit] voted: It's a pretty poor forum. Most of the posters here give bad advice except for a small minority.

but again, it doesn't matter for me.. it's good to know how bad players think about hands.. oh noez..

NickyOD

KevIRL wrote: »

invisible poll?

The post went up before I could edit the poll. It just takes a few minutes more.

BTW. option 5 is the new Atari Jaguar.

Seems more and more to be a way to feel better about a hand after you have played it. Every once in a while a very good thread comes up (NFR's recent thread v John O'Shea I thought was good) but they are rare enough.

It would improve vastly if people properly explained their thinking rather than just "I ship it here" or "snap fold". Those comments are fine if they are backed up by an explanation.

RoundTower

I voted for somewhat helpful.

I think it's pretty useful for good players who want responses to a specific question or hand, people who can quickly skim over the bad responses. Not so good for a newbie or weaker player who may take all the advice at face value, because the wonderful thing about a forum like this is how easy it is for the village idiot to get airtime.

RedJoker

There's some parts I'd agree with and other parts I wouldn't in the different options.

Overall my game has improved immensely, but like most things you get out of it what you put in.

Ste05

RoundTower wrote: »

I voted for somewhat helpful.

I think it's pretty useful for good players who want responses to a specific question or hand, people who can quickly skim over the bad responses. Not so good for a newbie or weaker player who may take all the advice at face value, because the wonderful thing about a forum like this is how easy it is for the village idiot to get airtime.

Pretty much my opinion too, there's not so many advanced topics lately, but if I have a query I think there are good posters with whom to get an opinion, the problem is getting to a point when you are able to realise who are talking sh1te and who you should listen to. Getting to that point is what is difficult for newbies.

Lazare

There's no poll option that represents how I feel.

It's very rare that a thread pops up where I feel I've really learnt something new or groundbreaking. In my mind that's a positive thing obv.
When I started posting here two years ago, I hadn't a clue what I was at, I've learnt an awful lot since then and my game has improved immeasurably thanks to this forum, but I feel it's kind've plateued in terms of what I can get from it. I've started reading MSNL on 2+2 for my knowledge fix.

This is all imo obv, I don't feel the forum has gotten worse, just that I feel I've gotten better, therefore I think it's an invaluable resource for someone learning the fundamentals of the game.

Kannon

i find it very helpful, although i echo what kayroo says about it being nicer when people give an explanation/reason for specific actions, rather than a few word answers which leave you thinking 'ok maybe i should have folded, but i'm not sure why'.
personally i give more weight to the opinions of those who offer explanations of why they would choose a particular action.
overall though its one of my favourite and definitely my most viewed forums on boards.

Marq

atari jaguar.

dvdfan

Since until lately this forum was the only one i posted on ive learned a great deal by posting on this forum. Ive also learned probably just as much reading other peoples posts and replying to them, however as Kayroo said there is too much ship it/fold one word answers which dont usually lead to any great discussion.

I think if more people just made 1 sentence replies why they say ship or fold people would learn alot more and more discussions would develop. But i think the same few posters put the effort in time after time.

I guess its because theyre around so long theyve seen the same questions again and again which is fair enough but when someone is puzzled by a hand ship or fold dosent help in any way at all because even if 100 people say ship it unless he knows the reason why hes shipping then hell make the same mistake again and come back and post it so a response like "Hed always 3bet AK preflop so i think your AQ is good here on that A high flop" is much more helpful because otherwise he might think always call all in with AQ on A high etc if you get the point im trying to say!

Lucky there is a good few posters here that do put some effort into replying because otherwise the people looking to learn wouldnt stay around and these people who learned from the old timers are the same people who will be helping the next bunch of newbies. Also there is a huge amount to be learnt in replying to other peoples posts as your going through thought processes, assessing images and defining ranges which is good practice for the real thing and improves your game.

Of course there is the occassional post that really dosent need to know why he should or shouldnt fold and generally gives a good description of images, ranges etc and just wants opinions of other posters he respects which is also fine. Typically these posts seem to get more responses simply because they decision is so close and people naturally like nothing more than to disagree with someone else which they dont get the chance to in most HH where the opinions are very 1 sided:D

Cue the endless Ship It and Fold and Move Up Levels posts:p

davidgti

RoundTower wrote: »

I voted for somewhat helpful.

I think it's pretty useful for good players who want responses to a specific question or hand, people who can quickly skim over the bad responses. Not so good for a newbie or weaker player who may take all the advice at face value, because the wonderful thing about a forum like this is how easy it is for the village idiot to get airtime.

+1 same as above,ty roundtower save's me typing;)

dvdfan

Ste05 wrote: »

the problem is getting to a point when you are able to realise who are talking sh1te and who you should listen to. Getting to that point is what is difficult for newbies.

This is one of the main reasons i chose here over 2+2 because theres just so many idiots and its hard to know whos talking crap or not especially when your learning and especially at the lower stakes.

HoLLLLLaments

i think its good. valor Hj etc. reg good strat posters really keep it going imo. i think there is some pretty bad advice given also tho.

davidgti

dvdfan wrote: »

This is one of the main reasons i chose here over 2+2 because theres just so many idiots and its hard to know whos talking crap or not especially when your learning and especially at the lower stakes.

yes well said bud and also easier to communicate & find out things:cool:

phantom_lord

I used to get a lot from it, and it's where I learned most of what I know about poker. But like what Lazare said it's kinda gotten a bit boring now, repetitive, and it's rare i get a lot out of a thread, definitely get more from reading msnl now. But, it's great having a few posters like valor/cs/hj etc, who's advice you can read and pretty much take as being the right answer, even if occasionally you have to go away and think about why it is.

zuutroy

The one thing I'd add is that we should implement a system similar to 2p2 where people are encouraged to reply with a decent answer instead of two words. It can be very frustrating when a really good player replies with something like:

1. Call
2. Fold
3. Meh, all-in

Theresalwaysone

To all the posters who say that there is bad advice given.

WHEN YOU SPOT IT!!! LET EVERYONE ELSE KNOW AND WHY IT IS BAD ADVICE!!!

kthnx

phantom_lord

zuutroy wrote: »

The one thing I'd add is that we should implement a system similar to 2p2 where people are encouraged to reply with a decent answer instead of two words. It can be very frustrating when a really good player replies with something like:

1. Call
2. Fold
3. Meh, all-in

idk, do threads like this one really need a paragraph of an answer?


tbf valor's couple of letters/words are usually worth more than a few sentances from most people.

Theresalwaysone

phantom_lord wrote: »

tbf valor's couple of letters/words are usually worth more than a few sentances from most people.

Not true. If thought processes or explainations were given it would help a lot more people in a much better way and it really doesnt take as much time.

Your guilty of it yourself shane and I dont know if it is cos of precedent or because your just a lazy know it all:p

cooker3

I'd rather a good player give a 3 word response then none at all

Theresalwaysone

cooker3 wrote: »

I'd rather a good player give a 3 word response then none at all

Yeah but you suck balls.

I wouldnt. I think it defeats the purpose of asking for advice. All they are getting is an answer, no method and no learning.

I know the argument that if they are given the answer then they will got and look for the why and the reasoning but they won't. In fact, posting it on this forum is their attempt at finding the why and the reasoning.

phantom_lord

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Not true. If thought processes or explainations were given it would help a lot more people in a much better way and it really doesnt take as much time.

Your guilty of it yourself shane and I dont know if it is cos of precedent or because your just a lazy know it all:p

worse still, I'm a lazy ignoramus!

Mr.Plough

cooker3 wrote: »

I'd rather a good player give a 3 word response then none at all

+1

And I'm pretty sure any of the good players who give short answers would explain if you asked them why.

You can't expect someone to explain in every thread why 3betting an utg raise with aj is bad

RoundTower

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Not true. If thought processes or explainations were given it would help a lot more people in a much better way and it really doesnt take as much time.

how can it not take as much time to write out an explanation as to write fold, call or raise?

you should be grateful to get advice from good players rather than moaning that they don't take you under their wing and guide you through your thought process in every hand.

Theresalwaysone

Mr.Plough wrote: »

+1

And I'm pretty sure any of the good players who give short answers would explain if you asked them why.

You can't expect someone to explain in every thread why 3betting an utg raise with aj is bad

You know what I mean. I mean if someone is posting a tricky spot and dont know the answer. well "call" imo isnt a sufficient answer even if it is right.

davidgti

RoundTower wrote: »

how can it not take as much time to write out an explanation as to write fold, call or raise?

you should be grateful to get advice from good players rather than moaning that they don't take you under their wing and guide you through your thought process in every hand.

+1 Very Well Said.....

Theresalwaysone

RoundTower wrote: »

how can it not take as much time to write out an explanation as to write fold, call or raise?

you should be grateful to get advice from good players rather than moaning that they don't take you under their wing and guide you through your thought process in every hand.

I should be grateful? What a load of ****. When someone asks me for help or advice because they need it I dont auto assume that person should be grateful. **** it, it didnt affect me in any way, it didnt cause me any hurt/money/any real time.

Stop sensationalising it. I wasn't asking to be taken under a wing. I am saying in general a little more in the way of explaination can only be a good thing for this forum. If its repetitive so what, repetition helps learning as much as understanding does.

cardshark202

People who moan about everything not being spoonfed to them don't deserve any advice at all. We've been through this before. When someone posts a one word answer like 'check/fold' or something, spend a moment yourself and think why they would say that. If you can't think for yourself you won't learn a thing.

cardshark202

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

If its repetitive so what, repetition helps learning as much as understanding does.

So you want someone to repeat themselves over and over again because you're too lazy to think for yourself?

zuutroy

I'm with Theresa on this one. I don't post hands for someone to tell me what to do...I post them to find out why. I don't reply to hands to tell someone what to do. I reply because it makes me think about the best line and (hopefully) makes me a better player.

RedJoker

zuutroy wrote: »

The one thing I'd add is that we should implement a system similar to 2p2 where people are encouraged to reply with a decent answer instead of two words. It can be very frustrating when a really good player replies with something like:

1. Call
2. Fold
3. Meh, all-in

I think this is a pretty good idea, even just for a bit of gentle encouragement.

I agree with Mr.Plough that asking for an explanation will most likely get a more thorough response though.

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

To all the posters who say that there is bad advice given.

WHEN YOU SPOT IT!!! LET EVERYONE ELSE KNOW AND WHY IT IS BAD ADVICE!!!

kthnx

It's not exactly a simple task, it can take a fairly sizable chunk of typing to fully explain why, for example betting/raising purely for information, isn't a good idea.

Then other people might give out if you don't do it in a polite enough way and claim it's prejudice against newer posters.

zuutroy

cardshark202 wrote: »

. If you can't think for yourself you won't learn a thing.

That kinda ignores how the learning process works

redjoker wrote:

I agree with Mr.Plough that asking for an explanation will most likely get a more thorough response though.

I think posting a hand in the first place is effectively asking for an explanation.

Theresalwaysone

cardshark202 wrote: »

So you want someone to repeat themselves over and over again because you're too lazy to think for yourself?

I wasnt talking about my learning specifically. I mean, for all the posters, if it is seen repeated around it becomes normal and assimilated and so we can move onto learn and assimilate something new.

cardshark202

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

I mean, for all the posters, if it is seen repeated around it becomes normal and assimilated and so we can move onto learn and assimilate something new.

If only that was the case!

RedJoker

zuutroy wrote: »

I think posting a hand in the first place is effectively asking for an explanation.

Not always.

Theresalwaysone

cardshark202 wrote: »

If only that was the case!

wow. Come on Reggie. Stop being so arrogant. Some people learn faster then others, all I was asking for is a little more time spent on explaining replies. if nothing else it would set a good precedent and increase the usefulness of the forum ten fold.

I know this is falling on deaf ears though.

HoLLLLLaments

Mr.Plough wrote: »

+1

And I'm pretty sure any of the good players who give short answers would explain if you asked them why.

You can't expect someone to explain in every thread why 3betting an utg raise with aj is bad

agree with this. it kind of sucks getting to debates with people when you know your 100% right but your 100% sure that you cant change their opinion a la dathio live hand thread. this is kind of the reason i dont post much in strat. If i do post itll usually be alot in one thread and the posts will be quite large. But i find myself wanting to change someones opinion because i know its wrong which can be frustrating. If someone pms me or emails me for advice im happy to put alot of time into it. I spent over an hour the other day reviewing and writing analysis on hands from the guy in hhs who wanted people to look at his hu sng on party. So like mr plough said if you ask people for explanation or a more detailed analysis im sure most will provide it.

cardshark202

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

wow. Come on Reggie. Stop being so arrogant. Some people learn faster then others, all I was asking for is a little more time spent on explaining replies. if nothing else it would set a good precedent and increase the usefulness of the forum ten fold.

I know this is falling on deaf ears though.

You misunderstand. There are new posters all the time who are looking to assimilate the same theories as before, so when you move on, someone else takes your place.

NickyOD

cardshark202 wrote: »

People who moan about everything not being spoonfed to them don't deserve any advice at all. We've been through this before. When someone posts a one word answer like 'check/fold' or something, spend a moment yourself and think why they would say that. If you can't think for yourself you won't learn a thing.

No one is moaning and no one is asking to be spoon-fed. You just made this up.

The rest of what you just said is ridiculous. Anyone who asks for advice obviously needs a fuller explanation. Folding or shoving may be very obvious to YOU but it's only natural that it might not be obvious at all to someone with less experience.

Also more and more of the one word answer people are getting it completely wrong.

Ace2007

From my point of view most the threads that i read in the stratey forum start off relatively good until somebody doesn't agree with an someone else, and instead of saying why they usually lay into the person for saying it - hence we get 2/3 pages there are irrevelant.

For me, there are 3 threads that i have learned from,

a) a hand that i knew i played wrong when i flopped a set of 10's got loads of response - went a little OT in the middle but luckly not 2/3 pages.

b) a thread started by cooker i think, where he had 99 in the CO, and looking to see what he should have done, i posted a reply, which some people didn't agree with, i.e cardshark202 but he explained why he thought it, i gave my view to his answer and then he elaborated further to a point to where i understood why my thinking was flawed - ty btw.

c) The most recent thread that i found to be good - and probably the best that i've seen was the NFR v John O'shea in SE, whereby rob gave a great insight into his thought process in playin the hand out, and other posters gave their opinions, which no one attacked. Then John replied in an honest manner, i.e what he would have done on the turn etc, also quote of the year so far imo: "Then when i bet the turn jump off his seat screaming i trapped u like a wild piggy."


-Ace-

Ste05

cardshark202 wrote: »

You misunderstand. There are new posters all the time who are looking to assimilate the same theories as before, so when you move on, someone else takes your place.

This is basically what happens, when I started posting I was detailed in my thought processes and when I was off people like HJ, Fuzz, Bozzer and loads others would point out where I was wrong. Unlike alot of posters these days, I listened, learned and moved on, there are only a handful of new posters that genuinely seem to want to learn, it's about thinking things through yourself and after a while people learn the error of their ways and then they impart knowledge on other similar type posters that come along.

I remember when DVDfan was just starting and he had the perfect attitude, he learnt, and is now doing really well, like alot of posters that arrived a year or so ago, and they have taken over the mantle in general. It really is a case of you get out as much as you put in.

People are so entrenched in their wrong thought processes these days (and there are more and more nowadays) that after a while of re-typing the same stuff over and over, it just gets monotonous and people get bored, when I see a short post from someone who's opinion I respect that I wouldn't agree with, I think about it and come to my own conclusion and if necessary and I still disagree I make a post outlining my thoughts, but that happens less and less these days as alot of the posters come to the same level of technical knowledge and the difference in players becomes using the info and all the other aspects of successful playing.

paul8200

theres a few guys who post in the strategy section ie the guys we are talking about whose contribution is invaluable and i certanly feel we are getting more from them than v.v. so i think that giving them a hard time for being too brief is sometimes biting the hand that feeds etc..

I would instead thank them for bothering in the first place.....

dvdfan

I think were being a small bit harsh on Theresalwaysone, i know she was fustrated before because of the lack of debating on hand histories etc so much so i think they went and set up there own private forum/study group or at least it led to the forming of that, theres also another study group formed aswell which im in which would indicate there is a lack of debating.

I do agree with alot of the points, like some hands dont need more than a 1 word response and if someone wants more information and ask theyll usually get it. I used to spend lots of time asking questions or responding to answers explaining my thought processes and asked was there any flaws.

I also agree a 1 word response from a good player is better than nothing but it dosent help the player alot unless they come across the exact same hand, against a very similar opponent and both of them have the same images etc, when you write a short explanation of why you should push whether thas because of images, ranges, board texture etc then the hero can apply that information to numerous situations not just the exact situation so knowing WHY hero should push or fold is very important not just knowing it was the right decsion.

In saying that there is people ill make short responses to because i have an idea that they know the basics and theres no point explaining something there already aware of and i think thats the point that a few of people in the thread are trying to get across but if you just put a push/fold answer its unlikely to spark any kind of a debate and also anyone learning will get absolutely nothing by reading it so the response is only significant to the OP and if that was the intention then i suppose thats fine.

I think it comes down to personal preference, its clear to see that some people get personal satisfaction from helping other people and other people dont or maybe have been doing it so long that they are worn out with repetitive replies which again is fine and understandable but you can see that theres a differing opionion between the old timers here who are playing higher stakes/semi professionally and generally very good at theory versus the player who is coming through the ranks trying to be that player and it seems the old timers feel theyre been repetitive but are willing to answer specifics if asked and the people learning wouldnt mind a bit more effort or maybe just a 1 line reason for the decision. Its obvious that if people put a small bit more time into their posts as in 1 sentence rather than 1 word it can only help improve the forum and debates but again people need to have some personal motivation to do this.

The 1 thing i would say and i think Zuutory mentioned it too is that reviewing HH's can only help your game, of course i dont know how much i can learn reviewing a 20nl HH now that i play 200nl but i certainly wont harm my game and there is ocassions where it can help my game and since lots of people on this forum contributed to the improvement of my game i dont mind giving a bit back when i see someone in the same position as i once was. I think RJ's comments on you only get back what you put in sum that up pretty well. Maybe its because of ego and i like to look intelligent pretending to know what im talking about or like i said maybe i get some personal satisfaction but it is nice to give something back.

YULETIRED

dvdfan wrote: »

I think were being a small bit harsh on Theresalwaysone, i know she was fustrated before because of the lack of debating on hand histories etc so much so i think they went and set up there own private forum/study group or at least it led to the forming of that, theres also another study group formed aswell which im in which would indicate there is a lack of debating.

I do agree with alot of the points, like some hands dont need more than a 1 word response and if someone wants more information and ask theyll usually get it. I used to spend lots of time asking questions or responding to answers explaining my thought processes and asked was there any flaws.

I also agree a 1 word response from a good player is better than nothing but it dosent help the player alot unless they come across the exact same hand, against a very similar opponent and both of them have the same images etc, when you write a short explanation of why you should push whether thas because of images, ranges, board texture etc then the hero can apply that information to numerous situations not just the exact situation so knowing WHY hero should push or fold is very important not just knowing it was the right decsion.

In saying that there is people ill make short responses to because i have an idea that they know the basics and theres no point explaining something there already aware of and i think thats the point that a few of people in the thread are trying to get across but if you just put a push/fold answer its unlikely to spark any kind of a debate and also anyone learning will get absolutely nothing by reading it so the response is only significant to the OP and if that was the intention then i suppose thats fine.

I think it comes down to personal preference, its clear to see that some people get personal satisfaction from helping other people and other people dont or maybe have been doing it so long that they are worn out with repetitive replies which again is fine and understandable but you can see that theres a differing opionion between the old timers here who are playing higher stakes/semi professionally and generally very good at theory versus the player who is coming through the ranks trying to be that player and it seems the old timers feel theyre been repetitive but are willing to answer specifics if asked and the people learning wouldnt mind a bit more effort or maybe just a 1 line reason for the decision. Its obvious that if people put a small bit more time into their posts as in 1 sentence rather than 1 word it can only help improve the forum and debates but again people need to have some personal motivation to do this.

The 1 thing i would say and i think Zuutory mentioned it too is that reviewing HH's can only help your game, of course i dont know how much i can learn reviewing a 20nl HH now that i play 200nl but i certainly wont harm my game and there is ocassions where it can help my game and since lots of people on this forum contributed to the improvement of my game i dont mind giving a bit back when i see someone in the same position as i once was. I think RJ's comments on you only get back what you put in sum that up pretty well. Maybe its because of ego and i like to look intelligent pretending to know what im talking about or like i said maybe i get some personal satisfaction but it is nice to give something back.

well said DVDfan you bridge the gap between arrogant fkrs and needy improvers....post of the thread

Goodluck2me

paul8200 wrote: »

sometimes biting the hand that feeds etc..

I would instead thank them for bothering in the first place.....

+1

It's free advice, if you feel you deserve more then pay for coaching. Stop B1ching because its not exactly as you asked for it.
There's noone paying Valor, HJ, CS Hol etc to advise you so cop on and be grateful you're getting it at all, and maybe begin to learn for yourself.
Also if you need a more detailed analysis, ask!
Post why or w/e.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Rnger

I went for option 1 because I went from a complete noob to the break-even player I am today.

Although I find these days I find alot of the responses to be poor and alot of threads to be without any real discussion. IMO that just goes to show how far I've come with the help of this place

Sirtoyou

I find that the better posters and strategists are also the ones who are subjected to the most abuse.I fear for boards because of this because they post less frequently and who would blame them.I know an air of arrogance sometimes surrounds the better posters at times but this is true of any person at the top of their field of expertise.
These people could charge a lot of money for their opinions so any thing they choose to post for free should be accepted with gratitude.I am not condoning lack of debate but sometimes I feel the better posters are not given the respect they deserve.
To these posters I say please continue to give good advice not everyone is unappreciative.

AdMMM

I used to read the forum an awful lot, but I found that far too often it was the poster that was criticised, rather than the post which is unfortunate.

If people could just debate and discuss each others opinions on hands then the forum would be a much better place but instead many threads seem to become fighting grounds for posters.