30th June changes

davej

I'm not sure how much this has been discussed before.

Am I right in thinking that a lot of people are basically going to be unable to learn to drive once the accompanied driver rule comes into enforcement ?

My impression is that up until now, learner drivers (including first time provisional licence holders) "took a chance" and drove unaccompanied most of the time. Gardai either turned a blind eye or "presumed" that the driver was on a 2nd provisional. Obviously after the 30th June it doesn't matter if the Gardai presume you are on a 2nd licence - it's illegal either way. The only way the Gardai can avoid enforcing the law is by "presuming" the driver has a full licence but that they share the car with a learner. Maybe the Gardai will be strict for the first few weeks or months and then relax again?

Anyway..

I guess the average person has family or friends who will be willing to accompany them once or twice a week, augmented by 10-15 lessons or so. I would consider myself in this situation and think it will be hard enough.

But surely there are many people who:

a) Don't know anyone willing or able to accompany them.

b) Can't afford to shell out for an instructor every time they want to get in the car.

What are these people expected to do ? How can they clock up enough hours of practice in order to pass the driving test without paying for 60 or 70 hours of lessons ?

There are going to be 2 clear effects I can see resulting from this.

1) Driving schools are going to start making a lot more money and may even raise their rates due to the demand.

2) Many learner drivers will take off their L Plates when unaccompanied and continue driving

Perhaps if there were designated areas (eg industrial estates) where unaccompanied learner drivers were allowed to practice it would help things?

davej

Chakar

Yeah I was thinking about that. We'll have to see what happens.

Red Alert

Technically this could be OK on a privately owned industrial estate. In any case I think with some serious restrictions it could be a good idea. Things like reversing around corners, turnabouts are best practiced in quiet roads, and also they take an awful lot of practice to get right. The only question is - how'd you legally get as far as the industrial estate unaccompanied?

bonkey

davej wrote: »

The only way the Gardai can avoid enforcing the law is by "presuming" the driver has a full licence but that they share the car with a learner.

The only way the Gardai can avoid enforcing the law is by not bothering to check cases where there is reason to believe that the law might be being broken.

As a parallel...you're a garda and see a car weaving on the road. Do you :

a) See this as grounds to suspect teh driver may be drunk, and should therefore be controlled
b) Consider that the driver might be doing something perfectly legal like checking to see if their steering is mushy, or may simply be a poor driver?

With the current or new laws, unaccompanied drivers in a car with an L plate should be checked. Every L-plated car on a motorway should be pulled, without exception.

The whole "sharing the car with a learner" thing is ridiculous, frankly. When I started to learn here in Switzerland, do you know what my girlfriend did? She bought a set of magnetic L plates. I put them on before I got behind the wheel of the car, I took them off when I was done.

No problem. No confusion. Any car with an L plate is assumed to have an unqualified driver. Hell...even my driving instructor wouldn't drive their car with the L plate on it....because they could get into trouble from the police for doing just that.

Its not like its hard to get right....to be honest, Ireland seems to be the only country where there is even the thought that excuses can be made, or whatever....

But surely there are many people who:

a) Don't know anyone willing or able to accompany them.
b) Can't afford to shell out for an instructor every time they want to get in the car.

I would say that surely there are very few people who don't know someone who'd give them a few hours of time to practice. If you mean "accompany them to work and home every day, because they want to drive all the time", then sure...it'll be harder, but people have to accept that this mindset is part of the problem.

Seriously...we'd never accept that mentality from anything else requiring qualification. "Sure doctor/pilot/bus-driiver/teacher/whaever...I know you're only beginning your training, and there isn't a qualified <whatever> to supervise...I understand perfectly. Off you go."

What are these people expected to do?

Not move to Germany, for a start, because if I understand their system correctly, there is no such thing as accompanying a learner unless you're a qualified instructor.

How can they clock up enough hours of practice in order to pass the driving test without paying for 60 or 70 hours of lessons ?

I'm wondering how someone can afford a car, insurance, petrol, and all the rest of it, if they can't afford to learn how to drive.

Sure, a lot of people seem to buy a car and learn how to drive at the same time, but I would suggest that this is part of the problem. Learn first, then get a car, if you can't afford to do both together.

Incidentally, I know of two people in Switzerland who passed their test here having only driven in instructors cars (i.e. paid lessons) beforehand. In each case, they required approximately 30-35 hours of lessons, which is a figure i've heard elsewhere.

Granted, all our instructors here are qualified, but seriously...60-70 hours seems excessive.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

aarnb

My problem with these news rules coming in is not that i will have to drive unaccompanied... it is that i will still be paying RIDICULOUS insurance for only being able to drive my car for a very limited amount of time.

I think we are put into the situation that we are forced to drive accompanied that our insurance should reflect this. Especially if they are bringing in the curfew for learner drivers too. My insurance costs me 6 times the price i paid for my car btw...

Stark

Why wouldn't it? Insurance is high because provisional license holders are making lots of claims. When they stop making lots of claims, insurance will start to come down.

Some insurance policies mention driving with an accompanying driver as an explicit condition of the insurance and those policies are generally dirt cheap. Two friends of mine got themselves insured as named drivers for free this way.

aarnb

Even as a learner driver myself I can see the benefit of these new rules. It will be a difficult adjustment, especially in Donegal which has an absolutely dire public transport system (cars are a necessity)... My only concern is the rising costs needed to obtain a full licence. But if the insurance comes down because of these news rules, then it will free up more income that will be needed for lessons!

bonkey

aarnb wrote: »

My problem with these news rules coming in is not that i will have to drive unaccompanied... it is that i will still be paying RIDICULOUS insurance for only being able to drive my car for a very limited amount of time.

With the exception of 2nd provisionals, the laws about driving unaccompanied aren't changing.

I think we are put into the situation that we are forced to drive accompanied that our insurance should reflect this. Especially if they are bringing in the curfew for learner drivers too. My insurance costs me 6 times the price i paid for my car btw...

I would point you at other nations, where its been the norm for...well...forever, really...that learners can't drive unaccompanied.

People learn to drive, then buy a car.

They are covered by the insurance of the person accompanying them when in that person's car....with the exception of instructors (because thats a business) where they pay a nominal amount to be covered for a year.

I would suggest in Ireland, people should look for the same approach to be valid. Learners shouldn't need to be named drivers...they should be automatically covered by the insurance of whoever is accompanying them.

Of course...that would only apply when the learner is in someone else's car. If they own their own car....well....not much you can do there.

bonkey

aarnb wrote: »

It will be a difficult adjustment, especially in Donegal which has an absolutely dire public transport system (cars are a necessity)...

What do people do when they're too young to drive?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

aarnb

bonkey wrote: »

What do people do when they're too young to drive?

You make a fair point. I would welcome anything that can be brought in to make learners take driving more seriously.

But honestly, you can't compare somebody who is too young to drive (a school child) to those that are young independent adults. They have different agendas.

aarnb

Actually, the American way makes so much sense... how come that has been overlooked as a solution here?

OSiriS

Something that is being overlooked, is that if you fail your test in, say the US for instance, you can schedule a new test for a few days later. You still need to wait a few months here.

ztoical

its also easier to learn in the states - you can take driving lessons in alot of high schools and also they are learning to drive automatics most of the time not manuals. Alot of states driving tests take place on a closed road not out on a public road and they don't have to do engine checks or hand signals or alot of the other stuff covered on the irish test. Its also up to each state to set the standard for their driving test so theres massive differences from the state to state [the PA test is meant to be very hard compared to the NY test] Most of my american friends I can say aren't great drivers - a few of them are down right frightening behind the wheel.