Christenings

Mena

diddley wrote: »

Would you christen your baby?

Never, over my dead body. When she's an adult at 42 she can make up her own mind about all these fairly tales, but until then... no way. :pac:

Bduffman

Can't see the problem myself. Are people afraid that their children might suddenly become believers? If you believe that a baptism is a meaningless ceremony then whats the problem?
All societies throughout history have always had ceremonies 'welcoming' a new member into the family - if religion never existed there would still be some kind of ceremony.
I've 'christened' my own kids even though I'm an atheist - mainly for the families sake on both sides. I know some people will regard that as hypocritical but I don't. Hypocrisy is believing in something but acting in a different way. If you don't believe in something than how can it be hypocritical? For me it was just going to a building to get some water poured on my child & then celebrating afterwards.
And guess what? I'm still an atheist.

Mena

Why continue to perpetuate what is in fact a useless, meaningless cermony. If you wanted to celebrate the arrival, invite the family and friends over for a BBQ.

Zamboni

Bduffman wrote: »

If you believe that a baptism is a meaningless ceremony then whats the problem?

Actually that arguement is a cop out.
If you don't believe something, why not do it?

I believe tribal tattooing and piercings and bar mitzvah are meaningless ceremonies.
I wouldn't let my child do that either.

Zamboni

This thread shows that moderate atheism is as guilty as moderate religion when it comes to perpetuating this silly ceremonies, imo.:rolleyes:

Bduffman

Mena wrote: »

Why continue to perpetuate what is in fact a useless, meaningless cermony. If you wanted to celebrate the arrival, invite the family and friends over for a BBQ.

Because thats the way most of my family wanted to celebrate it - & I didn't have any objections. It didn't re-affirm the ceremony as any way meaningful. Do you refuse to go to someones funeral because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to pay your respects to that person & sympathise with their family. Do you refuse to go to someones wedding because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to celebrate their marriage.

Does that perpetuate a funeral or wedding as anything more than meaningless ceremonies? Maybe - maybe not - but who cares? They're just ceremonies. There are more serious problems in life that religion & nonsense beliefs causes - christenings are not up there in my list of importance.

And its funny you should mention a BBQ - we did have one & invited all our family & friends afterwards.

Bduffman

Zamboni wrote: »

This thread shows that moderate atheism is as guilty as moderate religion when it comes to perpetuating this silly ceremonies, imo.:rolleyes:

And that shows that fundamentalist atheism is as stupid as fundamentist religion.
Say you decide to hold a non-religious celebration for your new child. And someone refuses to go because its not a religious ceremony. Wouldn't you regard that as being a bit pathetic?

Vokes

Actually, would be interested to hear some opinions ....would posters here (or have ever?) reject a request from a sibling to be a godparent to a niece / nephew and not take part in the ceremony, etc.. Why / why not ?

Malari

I don't know if it would arise, as my immediate family knows how I feel (and mostly feel the same way). I was a sponsor for my brother when he made his confirmation but I was 15...I was only developing my atheist outlook, in my defence! I wouldn't do it now.

Zamboni

SofaK wrote: »

Actually, would be interested to hear some opinions ....would posters here (or have ever?) reject a request from a sibling to be a godparent to a niece / nephew and not take part in the ceremony, etc.. Why / why not ?

I had the conversation last week.
I said I would be honoured to be a guardian for the child should the need arise but would not be a 'godfather'.

Mena

Bduffman wrote: »

Because thats the way most of my family wanted to celebrate it - & I didn't have any objections. It didn't re-affirm the ceremony as any way meaningful. Do you refuse to go to someones funeral because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to pay your respects to that person & sympathise with their family. Do you refuse to go to someones wedding because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to celebrate their marriage.

Does that perpetuate a funeral or wedding as anything more than meaningless ceremonies? Maybe - maybe not - but who cares? They're just ceremonies. There are more serious problems in life that religion & nonsense beliefs causes - christenings are not up there in my list of importance.

And its funny you should mention a BBQ - we did have one & invited all our family & friends afterwards.

In both of the bolded cases above I don't attend, when they're held in a church. I do/will go to the "after party's" however (receptions et al).

Bduffman

Mena wrote: »

In both of the bolded cases above I don't attend, when they're held in a church. I do/will go to the "after party's" however (receptions et al).

As per my previous post - I would regard that as a bit pathetic. Much the same as a religious person refusing to go to a non-religious ceremony on a matter of principle.

Dades

I think critics of people getting a hypothetical child Christened are overlooking the two most important factors here: The child's other parent, and the child's education.

In an ideal world we could all "fight the powah", but that's not always the most practical way to do things. My wife is a nominal catholic, and I can't think of a reason to deny her, and both our families a Christening. Regarding education, baptism unfortunately increases the options for your child.

The residual effects of a baptism last until the child's head dries.

Mena

Bduffman wrote: »

As per my previous post - I would regard that as a bit pathetic. Much the same as a religious person refusing to go to a non-religious ceremony on a matter of principle.

That's fine, I don't really care how you feel about my decisions, to each their own :pac:

Dades wrote: »

I think critics of people getting a hypothetical child Christened are overlooking the two most important factors here: The child's other parent, and the child's education.

In an ideal world we could all "fight the powah", but that's not always the most practical way to do things. My wife is a nominal catholic, and I can't think of a reason to deny her, and both our families a Christening. Regarding education, baptism unfortunately increases the options for your child.

The residual effects of a baptism last until the child's head dries.

Then I find myself in the fortunate position to not have any family to worry about as they're either a) of the same opinion as myself, b) 10 000 miles away or c) dead. As for school, we've had not issue at all getting our daughter into a school here in Ireland.

However your point is taken and perhaps I've been one of the lucky few.

redfacedbear

I agonised for a long time about this after our daughter was born. I really didn't want to have her baptised but the missus (nominally Catholic) wanted it.

The clincher was education for me too. While Primary school won't be a problem (she's signed up for the Educate Together) the only decent Secondary schools around here a run by religous organisations and over-subscribed. By not getting her baptised I was placing her future education at risk. Now the fact that this is the case in a 'secular' state is absolutely disgraceful but I'm not going to place her future in jepordy just to prove a point.

I eventually relented and she was baptised on her first birthday.

Number 2 is due in October and I suppose we'll just have to repeat the exercise.

I'm not looking forward to the indoctrination she will be subjected to (and that I'll probably have to partake in) but needs must.

Besides she's a bright kid, I'm sure she'll work it out for herself :pac:

Dades

Mena wrote: »

However your point is taken and perhaps I've been one of the lucky few.

Maybe you have, and good for you!

Orion

Bduffman wrote: »

Say you decide to hold a non-religious celebration for your new child. And someone refuses to go because its not a religious ceremony. Wouldn't you regard that as being a bit pathetic?

Yes I would - see below.

Zamboni wrote: »

I had the conversation last week.
I said I would be honoured to be a guardian for the child should the need arise but would not be a 'godfather'.

I would and am. Despite my atheism, which my brother is perfectly fine with, I'm godfather to his eldest daughter and stood in for the godfather at his second daughter's christening. I am perfectly comfortable with my atheism to not feel threatened by someone else's faith. He wanted me as godfather and I was honoured to do so. I went to the church and although I did not pray, or re-affirm my faith, or take communion, I was still there for him, his wife and , most importantly, his daughter. I would have been childish of me to refuse to attend. So in answer to the Bduffman's question above - I would feel exactly the same if someone refused to come to my children's naming-day or whatever because they felt it should be a religious ceremony - that it would be childish and pathetic.

Charlie3dan

I was in the same situation as above, my sister knew I was atheist and she was ok with it so I was delighted to be a god parent. Once my sister knew I wasn't going to help force religious beliefs (or lack of them) upon a child, then I was ok with it. After that,I don't care what meaning a priest or his god take from my presence as the godparent.

These religious ceremonies are customary, but even in some families that claim to be religious, a god parent does little more than throw the kid a fiver every so often.

The war on religion won't be fought one christening at a time.

Malari

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The war on religion won't be fought one christening at a time.

How do you suggest the war on religion be fought? I think there's nothing wrong with small steps like a single christening, or de-baptism, or being a guardian instead of a godparent. The more people do this the more acceptable it will be and the less parents will feel pressured by family to baptise a baby because it is the done thing.

Charlie3dan

Nothing wrong with it at all and it has it's part in the war. But it's only a small part.
Not attending a christening might make anti religious behaviour somewhat more acceptable, but I would be more interested in educating people as to why religious behaviour should not be acceptable.

(at the same time I'm not neccessarily saying we should all be fighting a war on religion either, that's a bit fundamentalist in itself)

I'm just saying I don't see a problem with an atheist attending a christening, if you look at the big picture.

Dades

It's a generational thing. Virtually all parents of children who are now becoming parents themselves would be aghast at the prospect of not having a Christening.

I very much doubt the same thing will be said when the next generation of kids start producing - despite what mummy filled in on the census.

Red Hand

Yes! Ze Var on Religion!

Ve vill begin by sending 10 Divisions of our Atheist Shocktroops to ze Fatican, and isolate ze Poniff in a gigantic Pincher movement!

Tim Robbins

DaveMcG wrote: »

I'd say more people use it as an educational insurance policy than a religious one tbh

More and more schools are educate together, multi-denomial or non-denomial.
Furthermore, a lot of christian schools would have a liberal ethos and wouldn't mind that much. If a school is that serious about checking certs, I would imagine its uber conservative which may or may not suit the ethos of the parents either.

Personally, I'd find it very hard to look a Priest in the eye and go through the Baptism thing. My sister who is a "I believe in God, I get married in a RC Church even though I never go to mass, but I think religion is nuts, sure atheism is just another religion, insert contradiction here" head is having a Baptism purely to get her child into a good school. She is only inviting two people to it.

She rang the Priest up to get information about it and he answer was class, "I said that at mass on Sunday, weren't you there?".

Overheal

Zamboni wrote: »

Funny you should mention that. I went to one at the weekend and had a terrible moral dilemma as to whether I should attend or not.

I've always seen it as honoring traditions, and not religion. I've been to communions, confirmations, christenings, baptisms, a 9/11 mass, weddings and funerals without too much thought on it.

Orion

Overheal wrote: »

I've always seen it as honoring traditions, and not religion. I've been to communions, confirmations, christenings, baptisms, a 9/11 mass, weddings and funerals without too much thought on it.

Me too. You can't expect people to respect your choices if you don't respect theirs.

Nevyn

I went recently to my nieces christening, both parents are catholic and it was wonderful to be invited and I brought my two unbaptised brats with me.

They were very curious about the whole affair and chuffed when the priest invited them up to the font when the rite of water was being preformed. Alas my daughter got hit with baptismal back splash and came racing down the church to me all worried she had been accidentally baptised but I was able to explain that the priest had not anointed her with oil or called out her names so she was grand. The look on the priests face was priceless mind.

In this day and age there are many ways to celebrate and welcome a child into a family with out it being a religious ceremony so to my mind there is no excuse to say it's whats traditional.

As for children feeling left out it comes down to how you rear them and explain things to them but they have to also know and show respect to others beliefs. Rearing your kids to make up their own mind or in an atheist household is all fair and fine but it's not right to teach them to be intolerant of those who do pray to their imaginary friends.

Tim Robbins

Thaedydal wrote: »

As for children feeling left out it comes down to how you rear them and explain things to them but they have to also know and show respect to others beliefs. Rearing your kids to make up their own mind or in an atheist household is all fair and fine but it's not right to teach them to be intolerant of those who do pray to their imaginary friends.

+1 Probably not always that easy though.

Nevyn

Rearing kids full stop is not easy anything worthwhile never is but you start as you mean to go on.

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

I blame my ethos.

Way to hit the right buttons dude :P

JimiTime

Thaedydal wrote: »

. Alas my daughter got hit with baptismal back splash and came racing down the church to me all worried she had been accidentally baptised but I was able to explain that the priest had not anointed her with oil or called out her names so she was grand.

Not that I believe in infant baptism, but why was your child worried?