Christenings

MrPudding · 07-05-2008 4:33pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Alas my daughter got hit with baptismal back splash and came racing down the church to me all worried she had been accidentally baptised ......

Classic!

MrP

Valmont · 07-05-2008 5:29pm

If it means your kid can go to a decent school why not? Baptism means nothing really unless you're getting defensively athiest.

Valmont · 07-05-2008 5:41pm

Macros42 wrote: »

I am perfectly comfortable with my atheism to not feel threatened by someone else's faith.

I applaud you sir. I sometimes think theist bashing has reached unprecedented levels on this forum.

The same tired arguments have been going on in here over and over again. An unfortunately naive theist will wander in here and bam you have the God delusion quotes flying all over the place.

Case in point - "I believe in a flying teapot monster, disprove that!"

ugh. And don't forget the thread on theists being less intelligent than athiests, now that was stupid.

Nevyn · 08-05-2008 2:11am

Valmont wrote: »

If it means your kid can go to a decent school why not? Baptism means nothing really unless you're getting defensively athiest.

If you do that you are pumping up numbers and supporting a corrupt system.

JimiTime wrote: »

Not that I believe in infant baptism, but why was your child worried?

Because she has been told that she has the choice to choose any religion or no religion she wants for herself when she grown up and figures out what is right for her and she has come to cherish having that choice and would not want it took away from her.

Dades · 08-05-2008 10:20am

Valmont wrote: »

The same tired arguments have been going on in here over and over again. An unfortunately naive theist will wander in here and bam you have the God delusion quotes flying all over the place.

I would see the "teapot" scenario as a rebuttal to a tired argument, myself, namely: "You can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore he might".

Arguments are only tired when they have shown to be erroneous, IMO. A old favourite example would be the creationist "Then why are monkeys still here?" argument.

Valmont wrote: »

ugh. And don't forget the thread on theists being less intelligent than athiests, now that was stupid.

That was a bit of a faux pas, though the grammatically incorrect title at least made it unintentionally humourous.

You have to remember this is a public forum, with many posters with differing attitudes.

JimiTime · 08-05-2008 10:30am

Thaedydal wrote: »

Because she has been told that she has the choice to choose any religion or no religion she wants for herself when she grown up and figures out what is right for her and she has come to cherish having that choice and would not want it took away from her.

cheers for that. Do you mind me asking what age she was?

Valmont · 08-05-2008 4:23pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

If you do that you are pumping up numbers and supporting a corrupt system.

It is corrupt you're right but some people just want their children to have a decent education, denying them that right as some form of protest seems a bit harsh.

Not all ardent non- believers intend on instigating a revolution, I certainly don't want to so if christening a child gets them into a good school so be it.

Nevyn · 08-05-2008 5:04pm

JimiTime wrote: »

cheers for that. Do you mind me asking what age she was?

She is 7 and that was 3 weeks ago.

Valmont wrote: »

It is corrupt you're right but some people just want their children to have a decent education, denying them that right as some form of protest seems a bit harsh.

IF you think that a decent education is for teachers and school to provide I would pity any children you may have. A child's parents are enshrined in the constitution as being a child's primary teachers. We teach them a hell of a lot more then any school and any child who's education is left to teachers is sorely missing out.

Valmont wrote: »

Not all ardent non- believers intend on instigating a revolution, I certainly don't want to so if christening a child gets them into a good school so be it.

I am not an non believer, I am just not Christian and if you wont' want to make changes fair enough, thankfully I won't begrudge you or any children benefiting from any I help come about.

Malari · 08-05-2008 5:10pm

Valmont wrote: »

Not all ardent non- believers intend on instigating a revolution, I certainly don't want to so if christening a child gets them into a good school so be it.

But my argument (admittedly hypothetical, as I don't have children, nor do I intend making any of the critters) is that it SHOULDN'T be just accepted that being christened gets you a better education. The more people just go along with it just reinforces the "sure what's the big deal?" attitude.

From the point of view of teachers, they are also expected to train children for communions and confirmations in school, which is also unreasonable in a secular society.

CerebralCortex · 08-05-2008 5:20pm

Valmont wrote: »

I applaud you sir. I sometimes think theist bashing has reached unprecedented levels on this forum.

The same tired arguments have been going on in here over and over again. An unfortunately naive theist will wander in here and bam you have the God delusion quotes flying all over the place.

Case in point - "I believe in a flying teapot monster, disprove that!"

ugh. And don't forget the thread on theists being less intelligent than athiests, now that was stupid.

The quote from Braveheart jumped into my head "I'm gonna pick a fight" when I read this post.

Nevyn · 08-05-2008 6:30pm

Malari wrote: »

But my argument (admittedly hypothetical, as I don't have children, nor do I intend making any of the critters) is that it SHOULDN'T be just accepted that being christened gets you a better education. The more people just go along with it just reinforces the "sure what's the big deal?" attitude.

From the point of view of teachers, they are also expected to train children for communions and confirmations in school, which is also unreasonable in a secular society.

and teach children about jesus with one breath and that 5+5=10 with the next.

Orion · 08-05-2008 8:04pm

Valmont wrote: »

It is corrupt you're right but some people just want their children to have a decent education, denying them that right as some form of protest seems a bit harsh.

It is not parents denying their children a decent education - it's the church, and the state for allowing them, every time they refuse a non-catholic child to their school. Thankfully there are now alternatives. Educate Together has 44 schools and 12 more due to open in September. I admit that it's not an alternative for everyone due to the lack of non-faith based schools - particularly in rural areas but the number of schools opening is growing fast. My two 4 year olds are due to start in September - look at my sig and guess where

Valmont · 08-05-2008 11:32pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

IF you think that a decent education is for teachers and school to provide ......We teach them a hell of a lot more then any school and any child who's education is left to teachers is sorely missing out.

Is that a plug for homeschooling? When I say education I'm referring to maths, English etc... traditional academic subjects should not be taught at home but I'm sure some parents are more than able to impart a solid foundation in academic learning to their children but the majority aren't. Parents are the primary teachers of children in life skills etc... but goodness gracious me to derogate the importance of school for a child is completely ignoring the importance of a formal education.

And cerebralcortex I didn't intend on my post being so confrontational, I don't want a fight!

Zillah · 09-05-2008 12:28am

Valmont wrote: »

I applaud you sir. I sometimes think theist bashing has reached unprecedented levels on this forum.

I think its a little bit unfair to assume the only reason someone would criticise religious belief is insecurity.

Overheal · 09-05-2008 1:27am

JimiTime wrote: »

Not that I believe in infant baptism, but why was your child worried?

I'll field that one. When I was 7 my and my cousin were at the swimming pool. She was a few years older and went to a private catholic school. Anyway she backflipped me into the water and told me I had just been baptised. I knew what it was but not how it was performed and I was fairly freaked out.

Its a bit of a violation to be forced into signing what can be viewed as a spiritual contract. I've never had any desire to be obligated by anything really be it religion or anything else.

That and my understanding of baptism was that youre forgiven of all prior sins... I was planning to save it for my deathbed

but then I just grew up and whoops I'm an atheist.

Valmont · 09-05-2008 1:44am

Overheal wrote: »

Anyway she backflipped me into the water and told me I had just been baptised.

That made me laugh out loud, maybe in her school they made the baptising rules exciting so the kids would enjoy the whole religion thing more.

Valmont · 09-05-2008 1:46am

Zillah wrote: »

I think its a little bit unfair to assume the only reason someone would criticise religious belief is insecurity.

I didn't say that at all, I just think the theist bashing goes a bit over the top at times.

BJC · 09-05-2008 1:52am

I don't know about you all but the thought of giving my newborn child to some aul' fella who has devoted his entire physical and spiritual existence to a big dude with a beard and sandals doesn't bother me. What does is that afore mentioned aul' fella will proceed to put oil on my childs head and then announce to a room full of my close friends and family that my child has been born corrupted by original sign thanks to two naked people in some garden. But with ongoing faith and devotion to the big sandal and beard clad dude then maybe my newborn child can be saved. I'm sure you can excuse me when I say that that child is born only with innocence and potential....original sin my ass....but thats just off the top of my head.....

Orion · 09-05-2008 1:54am

Zillah wrote: »

I think its a little bit unfair to assume the only reason someone would criticise religious belief is insecurity.

Valmont wrote: »

I didn't say that at all, I just think the theist bashing goes a bit over the top at times.

I didn't say that either. In fact I regularly criticise religion. But not people's belief in it. As far as I'm concerned it's a personal choice. I disagree with it but I will also not attempt to persuade some to my point of view - that would be disrespectful and like I said earlier I expect and demand the same respect that I show to other peoples' beliefs.

My point there was that I do not feel threatened in my own personal non-belief and have no problem attending a religious ceremony. I will not take communion of course but I had no problem standing for my niece at her baptism.

The exception I make here is someone who insists on trying to ... "guide me to the true path" - those muppets are fair game and I do have fun playing

BJC · 09-05-2008 2:02am

Valmont wrote: »

If it means your kid can go to a decent school why not? Baptism means nothing really unless you're getting defensively athiest.

Therein lies the unfortunate truth of education in this country.

Valmont wrote: »

It is corrupt you're right but some people just want their children to have a decent education, denying them that right as some form of protest seems a bit harsh.

I agree on a personal level in that if I had children I would set aside my beliefs for the sake of their future. But on a broader scale how else will things get changed? As I'm sure everyone here will agree, Ireland is no longer dependant on Catholicism as an identity, so how do we change things?

Nevyn · 09-05-2008 9:58am

By demanding more choices in school places and letting it be known when your child is born what type school you want them in.

The dept of edu and the schools used to rely on the baptismal records to guage what the demand for school places would be and this is no long applicible.

If there is not a educate together school in your area and that is the type of schooling you want for your child get thier name on a list for one, get invovled in a start up in your area make it happen. Lobby your local T.D.

Dades · 09-05-2008 10:00am

BJC wrote: »

I agree on a personal level in that if I had children I would set aside my beliefs for the sake of their future. But on a broader scale how else will things get changed? As I'm sure everyone here will agree, Ireland is no longer dependant on Catholicism as an identity, so how do we change things?

Only time will really change things.

That said, although I can see the Catholic Church losing it's grip on the indigenous Irish, I wonder if the foreign influx into the country will become the new flock, as well as providing the 'shepherds' as the Irish ones die out...

calahans · 09-05-2008 2:32pm

Its a pity that the death of the church is killing the community with it...

In relation to the original question, if it upsets your parents then get the child christened. It you believe in religion then not getting a child christened can be very upsetting. If you are an atheist and your child gets christened its not big deal.

It means nothing if you dont believe it. The priest may as well stand there with a magic wand and go "abracadabra" for all it matters.

Zillah · 09-05-2008 2:39pm

Macros42 wrote: »

I didn't say that either. In fact I regularly criticise religion. But not people's belief in it.

I don't understand how you can criticise a religion without criticising people's belief in it. Afterall, is a religion not just the name we give for a collectively held belief?

I disagree with it but I will also not attempt to persuade some to my point of view - that would be disrespectful and like I said earlier I expect and demand the same respect that I show to other peoples' beliefs.

Why is it disrespectful? If I told you that the Minister for Finance was Michael Jackson I doubt you'd respect that belief. I certainly wouldn't. If someone told me that a blackhole is the same thing as dark matter I wouldn't respect that belief. Why then do beliefs suddenly need to be baby coddled once they involve wild claims about the origin of the universe? Is it because the person you're talking with is too fragile to understand the truth? I think not deigning to confront someone on a false belief is disrespectful, its like treating them like a child.

Interestingly enough, I challenge all sorts of beliefs around me all the time, and I expect the same in return. I think its essential for a healthy society, what a wonderful world we'd have if people stopped sitting down and shutting up. Have you read any Sam Harris? He makes some good arguments in this regard. He summarises a lot of his arguments here.

CerebralCortex · 09-05-2008 2:39pm

calahans wrote: »

Its a pity that the death of the church is killing the community with it...

Care to explain that one?

calahans wrote: »

In relation to the original question, if it upsets your parents then get the child christened. It you believe in religion then not getting a child christened can be very upsetting. If you are an atheist and your child gets christened its not big deal.

It means nothing if you dont believe it. The priest may as well stand there with a magic wand and go "abracadabra" for all it matters.

I don't think its that black and white, you may actually have strong feelings about said religions position in society and you don't owe your parents enough to serve their beliefs at least I don't think so with mine.

Malari · 09-05-2008 2:43pm

calahans wrote: »

It you believe in religion then not getting a child christened can be very upsetting. If you are an atheist and your child gets christened its not big deal.

I disagree! It would upset me to get a child baptised, being an atheist. I know other atheists who don't think it's a big deal, but not everyone feels that way. I think taking a stand for what you believe is an important thing and I wouldn't pretend for anyone in this kind of case.;)

calahans · 09-05-2008 3:03pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Care to explain that one?

I don't think its that black and white, you may actually have strong feelings about said religions position in society and you don't owe your parents enough to serve their beliefs at least I don't think so with mine.

After mass was normally where the community would meet and chat. With mass going, amongst other things, communities are dying.

My debt to my parents far exceeds the debt they owe me. I would not raise a child a christian but I would go along with the christening to give them peace of mind.

Malari wrote: »

I disagree! It would upset me to get a child baptised, being an atheist. I know other atheists who don't think it's a big deal, but not everyone feels that way. I think taking a stand for what you believe is an important thing and I wouldn't pretend for anyone in this kind of case.

Fair enough. I am steady in my (dis)belief so I dont need to cause hassle for those I care about.

ArthurDent · 09-05-2008 3:07pm

calahans wrote: »

After mass was normally where the community would meet and chat. With mass going, amongst other things, communities are dying.

My debt to my parents far exceeds the debt they owe me. I would not raise a child a christian but I would go along with the christening to give them peace of mind.

Fair enough. I am steady in my (dis)belief so I dont need to cause hassle for those I care about.

but further down the line where will you draw the line between what you believe in and keeping others happy - letting you child make their first confession, communion and confirmation? Will you go to mass with them regularly? If you're not going to raise them as a chritian why would you christen them?

ArthurDent · 09-05-2008 3:09pm

Dades wrote: »

Only time will really change things.

That said, although I can see the Catholic Church losing it's grip on the indigenous Irish, I wonder if the foreign influx into the country will become the new flock, as well as providing the 'shepherds' as the Irish ones die out...

well where I live there are polish and african (sorry can't be specific as to what nationality) masses and also the local COI has also an african service as well as the "normal" one....

ArthurDent · 09-05-2008 3:12pm

BJC wrote: »

Therein lies the unfortunate truth of education in this country.

I agree on a personal level in that if I had children I would set aside my beliefs for the sake of their future. But on a broader scale how else will things get changed? As I'm sure everyone here will agree, Ireland is no longer dependant on Catholicism as an identity, so how do we change things?

not putting "catholic" down on census forms/ hospital forms/whatever if you're not practising is a good start - according to last census way over 80% of us are still catholics. Also asking for education to be non-denominational/mutidenominational at every opportunity would be good too imo.

Christenings

Comments