Christenings

CerebralCortex

calahans wrote: »

After mass was normally where the community would meet and chat. With mass going, amongst other things, communities are dying.

Are mass going communities the kind communities you want to hang out with? From my experience they can be quite merciless to those who think different to them plus theres the small detail of having to sit through mass which is insufferable bullsh1t.

calahans wrote: »

My debt to my parents far exceeds the debt they owe me.

Despite the fact that you had no choice in your conception and the responsibility and duty is all theirs? Sorry if this is off topic but you come across as a traditionalist Catholic. Am I wrong? Personally I believe I owe my parents nothing only the respect that I give to people I love.

calahans

ArthurDent wrote: »

but further down the line where will you draw the line between what you believe in and keeping others happy - letting you child make their first confession, communion and confirmation? Will you go to mass with them regularly? If you're not going to raise them as a chritian why would you christen them?

I would christen them to make my parents happy.

As to whether I would allow them to make their communion or confirmation, maybe...

calahans

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Are mass going communities the kind communities you want to hang out with? From my experience they can be quite merciless to those who think different to them plus theres the small detail of having to sit through mass which is insufferable bullsh1t.

I grew up in Ireland, I presume you did too. I liked my community - most people were nice, and some were d*cks. You sound merciless to the religious people you know who think different to you. Its a perspective thing.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Despite the fact that you had no choice in your conception and the responsibility and duty is all theirs? Sorry if this is off topic but you come across as a traditionalist Catholic. Am I wrong? Personally I believe I owe my parents nothing only the respect that I give to people I love.

"I didnt ask to be born!!!!!" - the ultimate kop out. I think you attitude to your parents is a bit shabby really.

CerebralCortex

calahans wrote: »

I would christen them to make my parents happy.

As to whether I would allow them to make their communion or confirmation, maybe...

Your not responsible for your parents happiness. I would consider it emotional coercion if your parents got upset because you did your own thing which so happens to contradict their beliefs. Imho this situation is rampant in Ireland and is also how the Catholic C has such a grip or any religion for that matter.

Dades

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Personally I believe I owe my parents nothing only the respect that I give to people I love.

What anyone 'owes' their parents is completely subjective. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children, others don't.

I would be in the same camp as calahans as regards what I feel I owe my parents (for example - a Christening).

CerebralCortex

calahans wrote: »

"I didnt ask to be born!!!!!" - the ultimate kop out. I think you attitude to your parents is a bit shabby really.

I agree, but what am I copping out from? Since I changed my attitude towards my parents that is servicing their needs both parties have been fairing well. A lot less stress and pressure for one thing.

ArthurDent

calahans wrote: »

I would christen them to make my parents happy.

As to whether I would allow them to make their communion or confirmation, maybe...

so you might let them become fully fledged members of a religion you wouldn't belong to, just to keep your parents happy? Sorry I don't get that...how would you explain that to them as they got older...

"yes son/daughter - you've got to go to mass/make your communion/go to confession/believe in transubstantiation....no I don't believe in it/do it - but it'll make your granny happy....."

Surely your most important job as a parent is to raise your children in the best way you can and teach them the improtance of honesty, courage and any number of other skills - keeping grandparents "happy" shouldn't be top of that list IMO

CerebralCortex

Dades wrote: »

What anyone 'owes' their parents is completely subjective. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children, others don't.

You're right.

Dades wrote: »

I would be in the same camp as calahans as regards what I feel I owe my parents (for example - a Christening).

Most do. I don't, but we'll see what happens when I have kids Parental and peer pressure are powerful influences.

ArthurDent

Dades wrote: »

What anyone 'owes' their parents is completely subjective. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children, others don't.

I would be in the same camp as calahans as regards what I feel I owe my parents (for example - a Christening).

and what about owing your children honesty....if you don't believe in a christening is it not hypocritial to go through with it - what message is that for your kids?

Malari

ArthurDent wrote: »

Surely your most important job as a parent is to raise your children in the best way you can and teach them the improtance of honesty, courage and any number of other skills - keeping grandparents "happy" shouldn't be top of that list IMO

It strikes me that keeping family happy is the main reason that a lot of people (my friends anyway) claim catholicism as their religion. To me there is less mutual respect in that than in a relationship where you honestly say "I'm not christening my baby just because you think it's the right thing to do".

How can parents be satisfied when they know, or strongly suspect that christenings are only happening to keep them happy? There's no respect there at all for their children.

calahans

ArthurDent wrote: »

so you might let them become fully fledged members of a religion you wouldn't belong to, just to keep your parents happy? Sorry I don't get that...how would you explain that to them as they got older...

"yes son/daughter - you've got to go to mass/make your communion/go to confession/believe in transubstantiation....no I don't believe in it/do it - but it'll make your granny happy....."

Surely your most important job as a parent is to raise your children in the best way you can and teach them the improtance of honesty, courage and any number of other skills - keeping grandparents "happy" shouldn't be top of that list IMO

There is a big step between a christening/communion and believing in god. Children learn from their parents over their lives and I would flat out not bring my children to mass, but if I had to explain to them why I made those choices I would explain that it (possibly) get them into a better school. Also, it would make my parents happy, and have no discernable effect/cost to them.

Lets not forget that most atheists in Ireland probably spent every sunday morning in mass, and it didnt make them believe. We are talking about a couple of ceremonies, which only have a meaning to believers.

calahans

Malari wrote: »

It strikes me that keeping family happy is the main reason that a lot of people (my friends anyway) claim catholicism as their religion. To me there is less mutual respect in that than in a relationship where you honestly say "I'm not christening my baby just because you think it's the right thing to do".

How can parents be satisfied when they know, or strongly suspect that christenings are only happening to keep them happy? There's no respect there at all for their children.

Religious people believe in god and judgement etc - thats why they are happier with a christening. They love their children and dont want them to go to hell (or whereever). Its not like your children voting left wing when the parent is conservative. Thats the BIG difference.

CerebralCortex

calahans wrote: »

There is a big step between a christening/communion and believing in god. Children learn from their parents over their lives and I would flat out not bring my children to mass, but if I had to explain to them why I made those choices I would explain that it (possibly) get them into a better school. Also, it would make my parents happy, and have no discernable effect/cost to them.

Lets not forget that most atheists in Ireland probably spent every sunday morning in mass, and it didnt make them believe. We are talking about a couple of ceremonies, which only have a meaning to believers.

Its quite apparent that your comfortable with the ceremony and thats fine. But the reason I take issue with it is because its bending to this (seemingly very Irish) idea that you have to keep the elders (priests, politicians, parents) happy to be accepted its almost a right of passage to be in the tribe and imho has as much to do with religion as the Catholic Church, and more to with power and control.

Calahan I apologies if I'm coming of as zealous on this but I'd really like Irish/world society change and I don't think it can while people pay respect to others fairy tales just to keep them happy and relinquish their point of view.

Mena

However all you're doing by pandering to these superstitions is allowing them to propogate. It's a never ending cycle, people sign up as Catholics / have their children baptized etc and the whole cult remains acceptable and we continue live in a country where being Catholic appears to be a prerequisite for getting your kids educated.

If more people actully stood up for what they believed in (or not in this case), real change could be affected. But because we just go along with it to keep the peace/keep parents happy etc, it just goes on ad infinitum.

A line must be drawn.

Malari

calahans wrote: »

Religious people believe in god and judgement etc - thats why they are happier with a christening. They love their children and dont want them to go to hell (or whereever). Its not like your children voting left wing when the parent is conservative. Thats the BIG difference.

Yes, in a way, but you also tend to get spiteful, controlling religious people who don't really consider god and judgement the main reason to christen a baby. It's because it's the done thing. It's the "what would the neighbours think" mentality, rather than what would god think.

Again, can't make sweeping statements - I'm talking from my own experience.

calahans

Mena wrote: »

However all you're doing by pandering to these superstitions is allowing them to propogate. It's a never ending cycle, people sign up as Catholics / have their children baptized etc and the whole cult remains acceptable and we continue live in a country where being Catholic appears to be a prerequisite for getting your kids educated.

If more people actully stood up for what they believed in (or not in this case), real change could be affected. But because we just go along with it to keep the peace/keep parents happy etc, it just goes on ad infinitum.

A line must be drawn.

I agree with some of what you say, but the "war" between atheism and religion has really only kicked off in the last generation, in Ireland anyway. So to say that it will continue ad infinitum is wrong. Since I was a kid the numbers going to mass to those not are probably 95/5 then going to 20/80 now. When the older generation die the church will find it more difficult. As mankind becomes more enlightened religion will fade away.

CerebralCortex

calahans wrote: »

I agree with some of what you say, but the "war" between atheism and religion has really only kicked off in the last generation, in Ireland anyway. So to say that it will continue ad infinitum is wrong. Since I was a kid the numbers going to mass to those not are probably 95/5 then going to 20/80 now. When the older generation die the church will find it more difficult. As mankind becomes more enlightened religion will fade away.

There is no war between atheism and religion, you make it sound like that all atheists have an agenda to destroy religion. Atheism just means no belief in a god. There is a war however between secularists and religion that is over keeping religious indoctrination out of the governance of Irish/world society.

calahans

CerebralCortex wrote: »

There is no war between atheism and religion, you make it sound like that all atheists have an agenda to destroy religion. Atheism just means no belief in a god. There is a war however between secularists and religion that is over keeping religious indoctrination out of the governance of Irish/world society.

Your getting into semantics here. If you want to be literal there is no war between secularists and religion either.

Dades

Malari wrote: »

How can parents be satisfied when they know, or strongly suspect that christenings are only happening to keep them happy?

They're a lot more satisfied than they would be if there was no Christening.

ArthurDent wrote: »

so you might let them become fully fledged members of a religion you wouldn't belong to, just to keep your parents happy?

A wet head hardly makes you a fully fledged member of the flock.

Mena wrote: »

If more people actully stood up for what they believed in (or not in this case), real change could be affected.

When it comes to getting my child into the right school, I'm not quite ready to stand up for what I don't believe in.


Lastly (and again) - there are usually TWO parents involved. How much do each of you respect the religious persuasion of your (potential) partner?

Mena

Dades wrote: »

When it comes to getting my child into the right school, I'm not quite ready to stand up for what I don't believe in.

Dades wrote: »

Lastly (and again) - there are usually TWO parents involved. How much do each of you respect the religious persuasion of your (potential) partner?

We're on the same page though I tend to be a tad more vocal

Nevyn

It is still standing up and making oaths which you have no intention of forfilling and making a mockery of the rites for those that do hold them sacred.

Overheal

I think one of the main reasons Atheism is taking such a hold in this country is beccause the church is no longer so closely tied to the state: its not viewed as an obligation anymore; its becoming a choice.

When you say Baptism gets you into better schools - therein lies the problem. Where people are using religion to get more priveledges. Or choosing to "believe" because you are afraid of a hell that you dont really believe in anyway but your just playing it safe.

Making anything mandatory has never really helped anything. Reminds me of teaching Irish in school: if it were made a secondary level option, you would find fewer numbers but better integrity of the language would be maintained.

It's not a war, its just the end of one. Now I am truly no longer pressured to be religious, truly, for the first time. If I lived back in the States Evangelicals would eat me alive.

I think you should simply find it interesting that when given the freedom to choose in a low tension environment that more people are choosing Atheism.

Dades

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is still standing up and making oaths which you have no intention of forfilling and making a mockery of the rites for those that do hold them sacred.

"Those that do hold them sacred" are the ones that want me up there in the church.

ArthurDent

Dades wrote: »

They're a lot more satisfied than they would be if there was no Christening.

A wet head hardly makes you a fully fledged member of the flock.?

Ah but you said that you might go further and might let them make communion/confirmation - that's a LOT more than a "wet head"

Dades wrote: »

When it comes to getting my child into the right school, I'm not quite ready to stand up for what I don't believe in.


Lastly (and again) - there are usually TWO parents involved. How much do each of you respect the religious persuasion of your (potential) partner?

Well we have 3 kids - my husband is agnostic I'm not, I'm no longer a practising catholic though so neither of us were willing to stand up and make promises we wouldn't keep.

ArthurDent

Dades wrote: »

"Those that do hold them sacred" are the ones that want me up there in the church.

But you're still the one inside making promises, swearing oaths you've no intention of keeping.....

BTW I'm not attacking you personally on this one - you're just brave enough to have admitted what you are/intend doing. Fair play for even arguing on this one, I don't think most people even think this hard about it tbh.

Dades

ArthurDent wrote: »

Ah but you said that you might go further and might let them make communion/confirmation - that's a LOT more than a "wet head"

Did I? I think I remember saying I'd let them make their own mind up.

ArthurDent wrote: »

But you're still the one inside making promises, swearing oaths you've no intention of keeping.....

Nobody on the alter (or in the sky) is going to care, really. In fact the only people who do seem to mind are the non-believer here!

ArthurDent wrote: »

BTW I'm not attacking you personally on this one - you're just brave enough to have admitted what you are/intend doing. Fair play for even arguing on this one, I don't think most people even think this hard about it tbh.

I have to face it - my 'catholic' wife is pregnant! Believe me - I'd love to "make a stand", but that's simply a no-win situation.

ArthurDent

Dades wrote: »

Did I? I think I remember saying I'd let them make their own mind up.

apologies wasn't you that said that it was Calahans.

best of luck with the baba! ...It's a blast enjoy it all

Valmont

ArthurDent wrote: »

Ah but you said that you might go further and might let them make communion/confirmation - that's a LOT more than a "wet head"

No, it's a piece of tasteless bread. Only the individual can determine the importance of these ceremonies, it's what you want it to be. Communion and confirmation don't really matter either. I'm sure many of the posters here have been confirmed into the Catholic religion. It never got in the way of my disbelief anyway. In fact, why deny a 12 year old all that communion money coming their way?:p

Orion

Zillah wrote: »

I don't understand how you can criticise a religion without criticising people's belief in it. Afterall, is a religion not just the name we give for a collectively held belief?

Yes it is. And while I can criticise the belief system I will not deny anyone the right to hold that belief. That's the respect I'm talking about.

Zillah wrote: »

Why is it disrespectful? If I told you that the Minister for Finance was Michael Jackson I doubt you'd respect that belief. I certainly wouldn't. ... etc

You're confusing facts with faith based systems which are not fact-based. Religions are based on myth, tradition and superstition. Saying the Minister is Jackson is easily proven to be false. Yet there is no way to prove the non-existence of God. That is the basis of many religious arguments.

Zillah wrote: »

Interestingly enough, I challenge all sorts of beliefs around me all the time, and I expect the same in return. I think its essential for a healthy society, what a wonderful world we'd have if people stopped sitting down and shutting up. Have you read any Sam Harris? He makes some good arguments in this regard. He summarises a lot of his arguments here.

Challenging beliefs and showing respect for them are not mutually exclusive. I disagree that Fianna Fail are good for this country but I must respect the choice of the electorate that voted for them.

I have read Sam Harris before - he's quite good.

sara025

I'm not religious, but my partner (kind of religious), my parents, my in laws are, and I got hell from the parents and in laws when I said I didnt want her baptised...So I went along with it...She's nearly four now, and every now and then I get pissed at the thought she'd registered as a roman catholic in ireland...wish I had stood my ground and let her decide to choose religon when she's older and knows what its about...instead of forcing it on an innocent child (who had 'original sin' by the way,,,what the hell is that all about?)
Anyway, she wont be having anything to do with religion until she's way older, no communions, confirmations etc until she decides, and who cares if all her class will be making their communion, How many parents have said to me thet they only got their child christened so they 'wont feel left out at communion time'......I mean this excuse seems to be more reason nowadays for people to get their child christened....jaysus I've just relalised why and all...the money! I remember when I was living in Dublin and nearly all my neighbours didnt do the whole religion thing...but by communion time they were all turned out in their bests, making ridiculous amounts of money...

Well I suppose the catholic church is all about money and what else could you expect...


I have meandered a bit off the point , sorry