Christenings

redfacedbear

sara025 wrote: »

How many parents have said to me thet they only got their child christened so they 'wont feel left out at communion time'

Definitely a big occurance. While me and the missus were discussing it this was one of the big things for her. Not just communion though - she felt that if our daughter had to sit out religion classes, not have communion, confirmation etc it would put her on the outside with her peers.

My wife has an unnatural fear of being unpopular :pac:

sara025

Yeah, I totally understand your wifes fear of your child being 'unpopular', but I think kids who are raised to believe that its ok to be different deal with situations like these in school much better than kids who are raised to go along with everyone else which ends up putting a negative emphasis on being your own person etc.

I think when it comes to the communion age kids are still too young to know what the hell religion is really all about...and I think when it comes to communion time for my daughter we'll take her on a big day out somewhere and give her all the fun that her other friends have on communion day, and hope that she has been raised good enough to understand that she is not being excluded!..I have yet to meet a kid at that age who is in it for the religious factor and not the bling attire and cash...

This is a huge subject...I could type for days on it!


(My friends son made €700 on his day *woooooww*)

Dades

sara025 wrote: »

(My friends son made €700 on his day *woooooww*)

Holy crackers!

I think I got eight pounds!

Overheal

redfacedbear wrote: »

if our daughter had to sit out religion classes, not have communion, confirmation etc it would put her on the outside with her peers.

What better way to hack that social standard than to face it square in the bud with the moxy you can muster

Seriously though. In school there was one total bitch of a religion teacher, my first month or so there and she gave total stink to me for not respecting the sanctity of a school mass or some such tripe. But anyway she went red in the face so much so that it left me really shaken up

But rather than turn tail and run I went above her head and gave out my own stink to the priest for the way I was treated. I never heard another word out of that womans mouth that was aimed at me. Just as well because I would have gone nose to nose with her any day, after that.

Boy was she pissed a few months later though when I went up for that piece of communion bread - she would shoved it down my throat if she thought she couldve gotten away with it :pac:

Its the ones that stand apart from their peers, bear, that will have the greatest potential for influence

*just one of the ways you can slip in with a crowd, and it was a bit of a compromise: again with respecting tradition.

robindch

sara025 wrote: »

(My friends son made €700 on his day *woooooww*)

Hot patootie. Last time I checked a couple of years ago, the expectation was between €300 and €400 per kid. Where did that happen?

Dades -- eight quid? Man, I feel for you. I got 35 quid in 1976, from the damp hand of one Eamonn Casey

Dudess

If I have children I'll do my best not to send them to a catholic school.

Galvasean

redfacedbear wrote: »

Definitely a big occurance. While me and the missus were discussing it this was one of the big things for her. Not just communion though - she felt that if our daughter had to sit out religion classes, not have communion, confirmation etc it would put her on the outside with her peers.

My wife has an unnatural fear of being unpopular :pac:

You kiddin' me? I remember in school that kid who didn't have to do religion class was the sh!t. He'd basically get to do his homework while the rest of 'sang' droll repetitive hymns. Then when school was over he could play his Megadrive while we did homework!

If only I had discovered atheism sooner...


...I feel persecuted. :pac:

daveharnett

Malari wrote: »

How do you suggest the war on religion be fought? I think there's nothing wrong with small steps like a single christening, or de-baptism, or being a guardian instead of a godparent. The more people do this the more acceptable it will be and the less parents will feel pressured by family to baptise a baby because it is the done thing.

Oh dear. Waging wars against religions strengthen them! Pointless attacks only serve to radicalise moderates. If it is treated as a non-issue (which it is for the most part in this country now), it will qietly die off within a generation. The only way to keep it alive at this point is to attempt to kill it.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Man, I feel for you. I got 35 quid in 1976, from the damp hand of one Eamonn Casey

All the other kids only got a pound... what was that all about?

Press start

I recently attented a Christening where I became the Godfather of my sisters son. She knows that I do not believe in God and that I am quite sceptical and negative towards religion, however, she still asked me.

This has made me wonder exactly how strong her own religious beliefs could possibly be. I mean, if she really believed it, surely she wouldn't have risked the prospect of eternal damnation of her son by asking a non-believer to effectively lie during the ceremony.

She goes to mass every Sunday and could be considered moderately religious. I think if I had a proper discussion with her on the subject, she may begin to see the reality of the situation.

ChocolateSauce

I would no sooner christen my baby than I would perform the Sikh or Buddist or Islamic or Hindu equivalent.

Overheal

theozster wrote: »

I would no sooner christen my baby than I would perform the Sikh or Buddist or Islamic or Hindu equivalent.

Your nice. I like you. a/s/l?

OK-Cancel-Apply

Whether or not an atheist wants to continue being a 'cultural Catholic' is his or her own business, but unfortunately, to pass this 'culture' on to the next generation means telling them that Jesus and Yahweh are real and will judge them for their sins...etc, so I don't think it's a good idea. It's not like you can say to kids, "Well, we go to Mass because it's nice, and part or our heritage and culture". Mass involves swearing faith and allegiance to a deity.

But then, sure what's a harmless little bit of mind-fvcking for the sake of tradition, eh?

Malari

daveharnett wrote: »

Oh dear. Waging wars against religions strengthen them! Pointless attacks only serve to radicalise moderates. If it is treated as a non-issue (which it is for the most part in this country now), it will qietly die off within a generation. The only way to keep it alive at this point is to attempt to kill it.

OK, just to clarify, I was quoting the previous poster with the "war against religion" comment - a little facetious! It's not a non-issue when people baptise their kids to increase their chances of a good education. My point was that dissociating christenings with education will help it die off within a generation because it makes it more acceptable.;)

Bduffman

sara025 wrote: »

She's nearly four now, and every now and then I get pissed at the thought she'd registered as a roman catholic in ireland...wish I had stood my ground and let her decide to choose religon when she's older and knows what its about...instead of forcing it on an innocent child (who had 'original sin' by the way,,,what the hell is that all about?)

This is an attitude I don't fully understand. I agree that if you want to make a stand fair enough. But what exactly have you 'forced' on your child. How is your child 'registered' as a roman catholic? If you don't believe in god then you obviously don't believe in christening either. And your child is not a catholic for life just because she was baptised. She can still choose when she get older. I, like most people, was baptised as an infant. I am now an atheist. Getting christened didn't force any religion on me from the time I was old enough to think about it for myself.
If I were you I'd relax about it & bring up your child to think for herself. I that way she'll probably make the obvious, rational choice.

Malari

Bduffman wrote: »

How is your child 'registered' as a roman catholic? If you don't believe in god then you obviously don't believe in christening either. And your child is not a catholic for life just because she was baptised.

While in your mind you may not be a catholic, the church cosiders you registerted as a catholic for life once you are baptised. That's what I don't like. I feel like it's someone signed a petition on my behalf for something that I totally disagree with. It's the principle. I know that some people don't care about that - maybe they are the people who say "Why should I vote, how could one vote make a difference?"

Dades

I would assume in matters of government and social policy the most recent census results are the statistics used, rather than the fanciful numbers the church have on their books.

Hence, having your (or your child's) name on the church register has no effect in reality.

Or am I missing something?

Of course the census results are skewed in that they do not accurately represent that portion of the population whose mammy filled in the census for them.

Malari

Of course it's the census statistics that matter (should matter?) for social policy and I can't explain why I feel it's important to me any better. It sort of surprises me that most atheists I've spoken to don't think it matters if your name is on a church register somewhere.

I heard on the news only this morning that Catholic bishops will only loosen their grips on schools when and if parents ask them to?!

Mena

The Catholic church by numbers
The Catholic Church is by far the largest Christian denomination in Ireland and also the largest Christian denomination in both jurisdictions on the island.
According to its own figures, there are 3,966,506 Catholics in its 26 dioceses on the island.Its largest diocese is Dublin, with 1,041,100 adherents. The next largest is Down and Connor (centred on Belfast), which has 312,056 Catholics.
The smallest Catholic diocese in Ireland is Clonfert, which includes east Galway as well as parishes in Offaly and Roscommon. It has 32,000 Catholics.
As with all Christian denominations and faith groups, there is a disparity between official figures of Catholic Church membership and that of the church itself. According to the 2006 census, there were 3,681,400 Catholics in the Republic, or 86.8 per cent of its total population.
The last census with a religion question in Northern Ireland was in 2001 and it found there were 737,472 Catholics there, accounting for 43.76 per cent of its population.
Therefore, the official figure for all Catholics in Ireland is 4,418,872, out of a total population of 5,925,067 (ie using a 2006 total population figure for the Republic of 4,239,800 and a 2001 total population figure for Northern Ireland of 1,685,267).



Source: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/features/2008/0512/1210503957947.html (may need to be registered).

We need to start standing up and being counted for what we don't believe in instead of bolstering the numbers.

Bduffman

Malari wrote: »

Of course it's the census statistics that matter (should matter?) for social policy and I can't explain why I feel it's important to me any better. It sort of surprises me that most atheists I've spoken to don't think it matters if your name is on a church register somewhere.

I heard on the news only this morning that Catholic bishops will only loosen their grips on schools when and if parents ask them to?!

I agree its schools where the main 'battleground' is. But whether people get their children baptised or not doesn't make the slightest difference. I got my kids baptised & will be sending them to a catholic school. Why? Because I live in a rural area & I want my kids to grow up in the local community. So opening new non-denominational schools is not the answer. Lobbying to get existing state-funded schools changed to non-denominational schools is the way forward. So lets focus on the real issues & stop making principled stands that only succeeds in polarising peoples views.

Dades

Mena wrote: »

We need to start standing up and being counted for what we don't believe in instead of bolstering the numbers.

But where are the relevant numbers coming from? The census, right?

I also think people are wrongly using the term "atheist" interchangeably with more accurate descriptions such as "secularist" or "anti-theist".

Malari

Well, I agree with you Bduffman, I don't think that opening new schools is the answer. Having the existing ones changed will be the way forward IF parents campaign for it. Baptising to get into schools is not helping.

CerebralCortex

This may be a stupid question, but do you absolutely have to get your kids baptised to get them into a catholic school?

Malari

No, I don't think it's a requirement, but school boards with catholic church representatives are prioritising "catholic" children.

Nevyn

Mine are in a catholic school.

It is do with the what is considered the catchement area of the school and how children are ranked and given a place based on the cirtea as laid out in the schools enrollment policy.

Children are awarded lke points when thier application is considered based on

if they live in the cachement area ( the Parish )
how long they have lived there
how long thier name as been on the list for the school
if they have siblings in the school
if they have had any family memebers in the school at any stage
if the child is of the religious ethos of the school

If there are enough places every child will get a place.

When there are not the scoring system is used and if it comes down to two children
who's profiles are the same but one is catholic and one is not the catholic child is given the place.

So if your child is not baptised and there are places the school will take them as the grant the school runs on is per child enrolled and they will want to make up the numbers.
If they have enough catholic children to fill the places then the child will be refused.

Mena

Malari wrote: »

No, I don't think it's a requirement, but school boards with catholic church representatives are prioritising "catholic" children.

I heard (sorry, can't recall where/source) that they wanted to change this, they, being some government minister... I'll see if I can find it but it may have been on the radio.

I know looking at changing something and actually changing something are two totally different things but...

ChocolateSauce

There's a big whooha in the media right now over recent reports which showed some school (notably private schools) cherrypicked their students. What the criteria they used isn't clear, but the result were fewer immigrants (in one school the number was 0.1%) and fewer children with special educational needs. In response there is now loads of talk regarding possibly removing most/all rights of preferential treatment.

The only preferential treatment I'd be in favour of would be if a potential pupil already had siblings in the school.

ArthurDent

Mena wrote: »

I heard (sorry, can't recall where/source) that they wanted to change this, they, being some government minister... I'll see if I can find it but it may have been on the radio.

I know looking at changing something and actually changing something are two totally different things but...

Only a patron (typically the bishop) can change an enrolment policy (govt doesn't run schools - patrons/BOM do) and yes the Bishop of Dublin announced that 2 schools would have an amended enrolment policy next academic year with a specific number of places set aside for non catholics - but it's only 2 schools and it is on a pilot basis. All other denominatronal primary schools will still prioritise their denomination if there are more applications that places

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

Of course the census results are skewed in that they do not accurately represent that portion of the population whose mammy filled in the census for them.

Stupid Mammy, because of her there are 4 non Catholics in my house being referred to as Catholic.

Botany Bay

Emmm........having heard all the arguments so far, i thought i'd enter another. Apart from your child being considered a sinner or corrupted(absolutely nuts i know). There is the other large elephant in the room that no one mentioned. That is that you are effectively being endorsed/approved by an organisation that facilitated and covered-up at the highest levels, rampant, widespread child abuse.

I still can't believe how quickly people gloss over the fact that child abuse by the religious orders was so widespread and so pervasive, and covered up to such a degree. That to attend mass on a regular basis is or at least should be a shameful act in itself, but to have your child initiated into the fold as wellIm sorry but there are very good reasons for not christening your child that extend beyond simply not believing in God or religion. It extends to the fact that the Catholic Church is a vile, disgusting organisation, that cares only for it's power and little for the welfare of any child. That has been well documented by their actions/inactions throughout history, particularly the recent history in this country. Industrial schools, Magdalene laundries??? I mean how can you explain to your future, older child these things and in the same breath the rational for baptising him/her. It's just completely inconsistent, rank hypocrisy from an Atheist and decidedly shameful from everyone else concerned.

If your parents and in laws have a problem, well quite frankly i'd tell them to go **** themselves, and im dead serious. How dare they dictate to the parents of a child how they rear their child, particularly when it pertains to superstitious, deluded nonsense. But even more so, when it includes an organisation like the Catholic Church.

Remember, Ireland cannot sign up to the UN Convention on the rights of the child, because of our education system and the role of the Catholic Church. That's ****ing shameful and an embarrassment on this country. After all that has happenned in this country, and the lip service about protecting children!? What a joke. Of course people just go along with it and continue the charade, amazing cognitive dissonance and a strange reconciling of the history of abuse and neglect in this country. Thankfully the church pews are not as full as they used to be. For those that still attend though, well it's true what they say then, religion is for the spineless and emotionally weak.