BCI to reveal list of applications for DTT muxes

channelsurfer

I notice the rte news report on their website mentions One Visions "introductory offer of 9.99".

I wonder how long it will last if they win? and I wouldnt put much say in todays hearings. A good public speaker can give a great presentation .. a bad one cant. But when you are assessing over 500 pages of material and have 10 or so set criteria and a marking sheet like most public bodies do, it often results in a different result. Boxer will get marks for previous experience. One vision will score highest for their channels at 9.99....

Elmo

I just wouldn't have imagined the commercial appeal in setting up a rolling news/factual channel, whatever about a rolling entertainment one.

It looks good, its cheap to produce and they can get away with having a few xpose type channels which will consist of cheap american imports. The news service could consist of news, sports and Current Affairs Documentries from around the world.

I notice the rte news report on their website mentions One Visions "introductory offer of 9.99".

I wonder how long it will last if they win? and I wouldnt put much say in todays hearings. A good public speaker can give a great presentation .. a bad one cant. But when you are assessing over 500 pages of material and have 10 or so set criteria and a marking sheet like most public bodies do, it often results in a different result. Boxer will get marks for previous experience. One vision will score highest for their channels at 9.99....

Could the BCI turn around and say that they like xyz from Easy TV and abc from One Vision and that's how they would like Boxer to run the service?????

I felt the where all very similar and if I had to give it to any one based on the presentations I am sad to say I would give it to ONE VISION.

DMC

channelsurfer wrote: »

I notice the rte news report on their website mentions One Visions "introductory offer of 9.99".

It isn't an introductory offer, not from the executive statement given to the BCI. Its their first level of their two tiers of pricing, or second, if you take free as being a tier of pricing.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

Could the BCI turn around and say that they like xyz from Easy TV and abc from One Vision and that's how they would like Boxer to run the service?????

Pretty sure at the end that Conor Maguire said only one consortium will get all 3. The BCI won't be a matchmaker.

Zaphod

DMC wrote: »

They offer low cost entry: Free box.
6 PSB mux + 7 pay at €7.99pm, 18 more pay channels for €22.99, a kids only option for €4.99pm, multi-room 50% discount.

Did they elaborate on how free the free box is? Free regardless of subscription or not? Free after paying €84? Or free rental so long as you keep subscribing?

channelsurfer

Could the BCI turn around and say that they like xyz from Easy TV and abc from One Vision and that's how they would like Boxer to run the service?????

Having some knowledge of public procurement contracts.... the winner gets whats known as preferred bidder status which they use the term "subject to contract contract denied" until the contracts are signed. The terms the preferred bidder is offered cannot vary form the original tender as the other 2 can use it as a legal means of challenging if the terms are changed.... so no the BCI cant change the terms. its all or nothing.... I am open to correction if that is wrong.

DMC

Zaphod wrote: »

Did they elaborate on how free the free box is? Free regardless of subscription or not? Free after paying €84? Or free rental so long as you keep subscribing?

Both myself and scath have it as it as a free box, how free it is we were never told. And I don't know scath from Adam.

Elmo

I was getting very annoyed when the mentioned Multiroom viewing. Why pay for the same thing twice over in the one house. We only have One TV licence, but 5 TVs why should DTT be any different?

Also if people get Digital ready TV sets surely they won't be bothered to go out and get a STB, those kinds of customers would never pay for extra channels TV.

bk

I've no idea why anyone would pay €23 for just 31 channels, when you can get about 80 channels from UPC for only €3 more or hundreds from Sky. Never mind 200 channels on Freesat by the end of the year.

It just makes no sense.

People are just going to take the FTA channels and use it with Freesat. The commercial service will be a failure, just like in the UK.

Elmo

People are just going to take the FTA channels and use it with Freesat. The commercial service will be a failure, just like in the UK.

Are we all in agreement that none of these companies will succeed (with their current suggestions) and it will be left to RTE to tidy the whole thing up in 4 years time.

pbirney

DMC wrote: »

Mr. DMC goes to the Westbury.

Thanks Damien,

Excellent report and analysis.

~Paul.

marclt

Hmm... I'm not convinced by what I've heard. Free channels on freesat - the squeeze is on the pay tv sector now.

The multi-room thing is just ridiculous... did they mention how they would police that? Are they going to look for a telephone line connection or something to validate location? Other wise people could easily opt for the reduction and have a box at another location.

DTT should be seen as a way of giving more free channels because the technology allows it... if another tier of pay tv has struggled in larger countries I don't see it being able to survive in Ireland. Maybe I'll be proved wrong... but Sky's penetration in the pay tv market along with the cable providers would make it extremely difficult. The ultimate key to its success is to offer distinctly different content... material not available anywhere else (like itv hd on freesat and not sky!).

Elmo

(like itv hd on freesat and not sky!).

ITV HD sounds like a waste of bandwidth, ITV is bad enough.

channelsurfer

hands up who can hear the sounds of failure ala ITV digital.. It seems the BCI have not learned the lessons of itv digital or ondigital and yes I think everyone here is in agreement that it will end up with either RTE running just 4 to 8 free channels and the government bailing out everyone else with free or subsidised boxes to switch off the signal. (if only we were members of the BCI)

It will be interesting to see if the 12 year contract guarantees government backing in the event of failure.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

Are we all in agreement that none of these companies will succeed (with their current suggestions) and it will be left to RTE to tidy the whole thing up in 4 years time.

Its going to be difficult. It may work, I'm not as dismissive (yet)

These consortiums and the BCI should know what has happened in countries where DTT initially failed, and see what works in what markets. Its one thankful grace for being late.

No consortium can provide the UK 4 for free, they will have to be paid for. We know that Freesat will cover this ground. But we are also going into 2 set-top-box territory, which will be fine for us techies, but not necessarily for the mass market and their DVD recorders.

The three distinct markets that have to be catered for are the ones that only have BOG 1-4, those with current analogue UK overspill and the elderly. Onevision appear to cover all of those bases by providing a STB-only option with six of their channels free along with the PSB mux. Onevision's is closer to the TopUpTV model, and that appears to work ok in the UK.

Elmo

No consortium can provide the UK 4 for free, they will have to be paid for. We know that Freesat will cover this ground. But we are also going into 2 set-top-box territory, which will be fine for us techies, but not necessarily for the mass market and their DVD recorders.

The 4 English channels could be Pay TV as an option, but bring in the other English channels doesn't help indegionous programme makers or TV channels.

I prob won't go for a set top box, I will end up with DTT on my TV/Recorder and access to UPC Digital via STB. Why would I pay extra for a new box, when I have a free one and a fairly good service already.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

The 4 English channels could be Pay TV as an option, but bring in the other English channels doesn't help indegionous programme makers or TV channels.

Indigenous TV channels have had competition since before there were indigenous TV channels.

Elmo wrote: »

I prob won't go for a set top box, I will end up with DTT on my TV/Recorder and access to UPC Digital via STB. Why would I pay extra for a new box, when I have a free one and a fairly good service already.

So you don't fall into the 3 markets that will have to be catered for. Anyone who has gone digital already has been catered for.

I hope you are not suggesting that as it doesn't suit you that you are going to dismiss it out of hand for the rest.

Elmo

I hope you are not suggesting that as it doesn't suit you that you are going to dismiss it out of hand for the rest.

No thats not what I am saying. I am just point out that the majority of people if not all people have several options open to them.

FREESAT, SKY, UPC will provide everything and more then DTT Pay TV, hence DTT is not providing a real alternative line up.

Many people could and IMO should get FREESAT for the 4 English Channel +extra ones and DTT for the irish channels.

Indigenous TV channels have had competition since before there were indigenous TV channels.

But indigenous ones should be give piority IMO. How many channels on Freeview aren't from England?

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

FREESAT, SKY, UPC will provide everything and more then DTT Pay TV, hence DTT is not providing a real alternative line up.

People will want the same channels, ones they are familiar with. All 3 consortiums did ask in surveys what the audience wanted, tbh.

Elmo wrote: »

Many people could and IMO should get FREESAT for the 4 English Channel +extra ones and DTT for the irish channels.

It is the ideal solution, imo too.

Elmo wrote: »

But indigenous ones should be give piority IMO. How many channels on Freeview aren't from England?

Priority in EPG placement certainly, but the UK is a vastly bigger market, and we have always sought channels and programming from there.

Elmo

People will want the same channels, ones they are familiar with. All 3 consortiums did ask in surveys what the audience wanted, tbh.

I have no problem with them suggesting BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV and C4 (but RTE and TV3 must stop showing simulcast if they are available on FTA DTT).

But each consortium suggest LIVING TV, DAVE, Sky One are we that used to them?

We could get used to Irish channels providing the same services as Living TV, channel 6 is Living TV. I mean I can imagine Virgin 1 appearing on this system. How are we used to Virgin 1? It's the worst channel I have ever seen. (Bar Buzz TV)

I have never seen DAVE am I missing out? Remember Irish Channels buy Irish Right to programming, Irish Rights for Sports, TV shows etc is far cheaper for an Irish Channel and they will provide jobs and revenue to the Irish market. DAVE won't.

keith99

DMC wrote: »

People will want the same channels, ones they are familiar with. All 3 consortiums did ask in surveys what the audience wanted, tbh.



It is the ideal solution, imo too.



Priority in EPG placement certainly, but the UK is a vastly bigger market, and we have always sought channels and programming from there.

The dtt pay tv will be a rip off

I have a trail box

the four irish tv channels uk history, bbc3, bbc4 and channel 6 are the only channels that are worth watching on this trail

I only watched sky sports 1 and setanta sports ireland for some live football and I found the service very boring and not value for money

I bought the new freesat hd receiver yesterday and it works by giving an english postcode and I get BBC1, BBC2, bbc3, bbc4, ITV1, itv2, itv3, itv4, C4, E4, MORE 4, film4 for a once off fee alongside bbc hd and other channels as well

I would buy the new irish DTTHD receiver just to receive fta dtt channels

MUX 1 - PBS (8 channels)
RTE 1
RTE 2
TG4
TV3
IFB TV
Channel 6
Dail TV
RTE NEWS (????)

MUX 2 - FTA - (8 channels)

TV3 Today
TV3 Expose
FTA 1
FTA 2
FTA 3
FTA 4
FTA 5
FTA 6

JUBJUBER

As someone who was at the conference yesterday and saw all presentations i can tell you all, you're way in your channel line up and expectations

Elmo

As someone who was at the conference yesterday and saw all presentations i can tell you all, you're way in your channel line up and expectations

What do you mean? "You're way in your channel line up and expecations"

I saw all of them and I now expect very little TBH.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

But each consortium suggest LIVING TV, DAVE, Sky One are we that used to them?

The public in the surveys thought so. Cast you mind back to the early 1990's when Cablelink didn't have Sky One. It was important then.

Elmo wrote: »

We could get used to Irish channels providing the same services as Living TV, channel 6 is Living TV. I mean I can imagine Virgin 1 appearing on this system. How are we used to Virgin 1? It's the worst channel I have ever seen. (Bar Buzz TV)

I have never seen DAVE am I missing out? Remember Irish Channels buy Irish Right to programming, Irish Rights for Sports, TV shows etc is far cheaper for an Irish Channel and they will provide jobs and revenue to the Irish market. DAVE won't.

And UK channels have UK rights that overspill into Ireland.... then that advocates encryption. While its noble in thought that an Irish channel will provide revenue and jobs to Ireland, people are not going to drop Sky for what might appear to be an inferior channel lineup on DTT. Channel 6, for example has been much derided since its launch on these very boards.

If an Irish channel got the rights to certain programming, that same channel couldn't appear on Freesat, like Channel 6. It would have to be encrypted on satellite. Thus, the uncommon interface of channels on different platforms will cause utter confusion amongst the public.

Virgin 1 is only new, and rubbish, yet other channels like UK Gold and Dave (it was UKTV G2 prior to the rebrand) are established in the minds of the viewing public here.

bk

Personally I just don't see the market or the business case for this commercial service. So lets look at each market segment.

1) Rural and Suburban (typically outside cable area). Typically these people have their own home and can easily put up a sat dish, so they either get Freesat with 200 channels for a once off fee or Sky for €20 - 30pm with hundreds of channels.

I just can't see why these folk would have any interest in DTT beyond the FTA channels. And note for people in rural areas, sat will almost certainly offer better coverage then DTT.

2) Urban areas, you can argue that people like myself in an apartment who can't put up a sat and therefore can't get Freesat might be their target, but then we are typically well supplied with 80 - 120 channels by the likes of UPC, Smart or Magnet for €20 to 30 pm.

3) so that really just leaves folks who currently only have 4 to 8 terrestrial channels, either because they have no interest in more channels or can't afford the upfront cost of Freesat or the ongoing cost of pay TV.

This third category seems like a really bad target market to me. Most of these folks are just going to eventually take the FTA channels and maybe grudgingly the €10 package to get the UK terrestrial channels when they are turned off and I expect most will go for Freesat if they can afford it.

Just in the last week I've told about a dozen people about Freesat, they are all planning to get it in the next few months, word travels fast in Ireland, specially about free TV. Irish people have been sticking up big aeriels for years to get the UK channels, they will have little problem with doing the same for Freesat.

I can't see why anyone would go for the €20+ tier or go for sports and movies packages. Anyone interested in this will get much better value for money by going to Sky or UPC/Smart/Magnet.

It just seems like a completely crazy business model to me.

Yes, I believe it will collapse in 3 to 4 years. That is why I hope the RTE consortium win, at least it will then make it easier for RTE to pick up the pieces.

I also think Easy TV's idea of less channels with better picture quality is a good idea. If the vast majority of people are just going to end up getting just FTA or FTA + €10 UK channel package, then surely offering these channels in the best pq possible is better then trying to squeeze as many low PQ channels in as possible to try and sell the €20+ tiers that no one is going to buy anyway.

Elmo

Virgin 1 is only new, and rubbish, yet other channels like UK Gold and Dave (it was UKTV G2 prior to the rebrand) are established in the minds of the viewing public here.

Well UKTV Gold are cable services not on Freeview AFAIK. And It's not a channel widely available in Ireland.

Channel 6 isn't that bad, even I can give C6 more credit then Virgin 1 and many of the other ENGLISH channels out there. C6 have bought some quality TV shows from the states.

The research suggest that they did not investigate new Irish Channels rather the mentioned ones already in the public mind. I makes sence for these Consortia not to investigate New Irish Channels and how well they would do.

Most of these English channels are relatively new and aren't the best in English Broadcasting.

I would say C6 is just as much of a brand in Ireland as UKTV if not more of a brand. But I don't have any research to back it up.

Remember all of the companies are to spend at least 10 million making the names known to the viewer. No one knows who ONE VISION, EASY TV or BOXER are, yet. Ditto new services from England or/and Ireland.

bk

Elmo wrote: »

We could get used to Irish channels providing the same services as Living TV, channel 6 is Living TV. I mean I can imagine Virgin 1 appearing on this system. How are we used to Virgin 1? It's the worst channel I have ever seen. (Bar Buzz TV)

Personally I see little point in creating Irish versions of UK channels, doing US imports. We are a small country, our population size can't support many channels.

As it is the country barely supports three channels, TV3 is truly rubbish and only half a channel.

I see room for perhaps only 3 or 4 extra Irish channels.

- A rolling RTE news service, perhaps in cooperation with Euronews or the BBC/ITN.

- RTE 3 and 4, one a repeat channel mixed with current late night US imports and 1 and 2, shown at prime time at a RTE classic channel, with some repeat spill over and extra sports when clashes happen.

- The IFB movie channel.

There is little room in Ireland for anything else, any other channels would just be full of cheap US imports, have no Irish content and would offer little over similar UK channels. They wouldn't even generate many Irish jobs, these sort of channels are highly automated, typically only require 1 person to run and I wouldn't be surprised if their running would be outsourced to the UK TV networks anyway, as they are better set up for it.

Also such channels can reduce Irish choice and competition, just look at the example of TV3, because they own the Irish rights to many ITV shows, we can't get any ITV channels here in Ireland on Sky/UPC/etc. All because of the rubbish TV3. Do we really want more of this?

Personally I would prefer we focus on less Irish TV channels and instead focus on more Irish made content on the existing channels.

It creates more jobs, it is what the Irish people want and it is more satisfying area to work in. Let the US imports to the UK channels, they are of little benefit to us.

bk

Elmo wrote: »

Well UKTV Gold are cable services not on Freeview AFAIK. And It's not a channel widely available in Ireland.

Well UKTV Gold 2 was renamed Dave and it is on Freeview.

It is actually an excellent channel, it is basically BBC Gold, it shows repeats of all the classic and highest rated BBC shows.

It is now one of the top, non terrestrial channesl in the UK, having surpassed Sky One and it is very well known. It has a very good position on the Sky EPG and it is also on almost all digital platforms in the UK and Ireland.

It is a much better channel then C6 and much better known.

Elmo wrote: »

Channel 6 isn't that bad, even I can give C6 more credit then Virgin 1 and many of the other ENGLISH channels out there. C6 have bought some quality TV shows from the states.

C6 is awful, it simply repeats old US TV shows, how many times have we seen Buffy and CSI now. At least the UK channels that you deride, show new US shows.

Elmo wrote: »

I would say C6 is just as much of a brand in Ireland as UKTV if not more of a brand. But I don't have any research to back it up.

Not a chance, UKTV is a very well known brand to anyone in the multichannel world. Dave, UKTV Docs, History, Food, Drama, etc. all of which carry high quality, but older, BBC content.

Basically UKTV is exactly the type of channel we want here in Ireland, not C6, a channel showing high quality, but older, Irish made content and educational content, basically a RTE Gold, not another import channel.

DMC

bk wrote: »

Personally I see little point in creating Irish versions of UK channels, doing US imports. We are a small country, our population size can't support many channels.

+1, and +1 to the next post.

Elmo

I don't want to get into the merits of C6. I would say that it shows CSI less then Living but then RTE hold the main rights to that show. Certainly C6 have picked up some gems over the past number of years, HOUSE, THE CLOSER etc.

I personally don't know UKTV at all, they are services that I haven't access to. So I don't know DAVE but other services coming from Sky and Virgin on DTT in Ireland would not provide anymore choice to the consumer. The virgin set of channels are much to be disired IMO ditto Sky 1, 2 and 3.

I see room for perhaps only 3 or 4 extra Irish channels.

I do think that their is more room for more Irish TV channels. I agree that 1, 2, 3 and 4 should be the focus of each current services. Downgrading 1, 2, 3 and 4 would be a dreadful move just for extra channels of their own, and this would not provide choice. But their is no reason even in this small country that we could not have a Music Channel, a Movie Channel (plus the IFB one), a Sports Channel, an Entertainment Channel, Local Channels and a Documentry Channel.

You have all got to realise that buying programming for a small market like Ireland is a lot cheaper then buying for a larger market like England.

RTE, TV3, TG4 and C6 spend less than 2000euro per hour on imports.

TV3s golden rule has been to make money every hour that they are on, they where making profits in their 3rd year (before Corri St) only accounting practices saw a large fee go to Canwest for Managerial Services.

Yes you can add extra foreign channels to the line up but we would be better served with the 4 main English Channels FTA and 15 extra Irish channels plus a few Pay coming from England television stations.

Any growth that TV3's new channels expect with DTT will be diminished by the huge number of Foreign Channels. We may as well have Irish Channels doing what the English ones are doing and making some money of the whole thing.

Sure this come to pass 50% of all advertising revenue will be spent on English Channels in Ireland. I don't think this makes sence.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

I don't want to get into the merits of C6. I would say that it shows CSI less then Living but then RTE hold the main rights to that show. Certainly C6 have picked up some gems over the past number of years, HOUSE, THE CLOSER etc.

You don't want to go into the merits of Channel 6, but want to sing its praises. And yet....

Elmo wrote: »

I personally don't know UKTV at all, they are services that I haven't access to.

You are missing out. Only then you can make a judgment as to their merits or otherwise.

Elmo wrote: »

You have all got to realise that buying programming for a small market like Ireland is a lot cheaper then buying for a larger market like England.

And you have to realise that there is a lot less advertising revenue in this country compared to a larger market in England.

bk is totally right. Money can be invested and more jobs made if there was increased production on the existing channels. Make TV3 earn its place on the PSB mux by making it produce more home produced programming. More Irish content in prime time, rather shove it away with Mark Cagney in the mornings.

Elmo, if we get the channels we have reflecting Irish society better by producing more home produced programmes, it will be worth more than Irish-branded copies of channels that can already be picked up here.

Elmo

And you have to realise that there is a lot less advertising revenue in this country compared to a larger market in England.

There is 150,000,000 euro worth of untapped avertising revenue available in Ireland. That is due to English channels without so called Irish opt outs and BBC 1 and 2. 300,000,000 is shared among RTE ONE, RTE TWO, TV3, TG4, sky 1, sky news, C4, E4, Living, C6, UTV, Nickelodean, Setanta and Sky Sports.

It would be an awful lot of money to lose from the Irish market and 4 main Irish channel will never increase their amounts of Advertising revenue. (Taxes lost, laws lost, jobs lost)

Newer channels that are licenced by the BCI could have access to that 150,000,000 euro worth of advertising revenue. (They would all be available on UPC and Sky would see their value)

bk is totally right. Money can be invested and more jobs made if there was increased production on the existing channels. Make TV3 earn its place on the PSB mux by making it produce more home produced programming. More Irish content in prime time, rather shove it away with Mark Cagney in the mornings.

I total agree TV3 should have to earn its place on the PBS service, I don't understand how they could annouance 2 new channels when they are still discussing one with the BCI.

Elmo, if we get the channels we have reflecting Irish society better by producing more home produced programmes, it will be worth more than Irish-branded copies of channels that can already be picked up here.

If TV3 aren't up to the job and the BCI don't want to take their licence away then they should give out a new licence to a new Channel which would take on more home produced programmes and compete with RTE. If TV3 wanted that could compete with RTE they make 60,000,000 a year in advertising revenue, the have a budget of about 30,000,000.

And you have to realise that there is a lot less advertising revenue in this country compared to a larger market in England.

English channels pay for the right to show US shows to 60,000,000 people. Sky spent 1,000,000 euro on each episode of LOST, while RTE spend 2,000. Different economies, different countries, different people.

There should be no reason why a new service could start the kind of programming you are talk about. Anyone could provide a mix of new american and british tv show which seems to be on offer on DAVE.

You don't want to go into the merits of Channel 6, but want to sing its praises. And yet....

Ehhh!

L1011

Elmo - I've worked in commercial TV.

There is barely a penny left in the advertising market in the UK and despite estimated figures of about 35% of the channel in questions audience being in Ireland, there was *no* interest in ad time. This was a youth-targetted service.

Please don't pull figures out of the air. If you've found anything suggesting 150M is around, please provide it to us.

Bear in mind that Channel 6 are in financial difficulties (widely reported in the papers).

DMC

Firstly, source of the €150m figure?

Elmo wrote: »

There should be no reason why a new service could start the kind of programming you are talk about. Anyone could provide a mix of new american and british tv show which seems to be on offer on DAVE.

But no consortium will spend a penny more than their promises. There will be no more new channels from these consortia, outside of what OneVision promised, which is TV3 Today and Expose.

What you are coming up with is idle speculation, fanciful stuff and not hard facts with regard to what was seen yesterday.

Elmo

Bear in mind that Channel 6 are in financial difficulties (widely reported in the papers).

Channel 6 are in financial difficult because they are not FTA and are only available on UPC, Magnet and Sky. Remember they are on channel 190 on Sky and are desprately trying to move up the EPG. They have also made some major mistakes over the last few year such as investing huge amounts into Advertising rather then substantial programming.

There is barely a penny left in the advertising market in the UK and despite estimated figures of about 35% of the channel in questions audience being in Ireland, there was *no* interest in ad time. This was a youth-targetted service.

Any of the channels mentioned will end up putting up an opt out if they are available on DTT in Ireland. Why? Because TV3 are willing to sell advertising time for them. Even a few thousand euros isn't to be turn down. Also whom ever get DTT Multiple licence will pay for those channels to be on their multiple.

However going with Irish channels FTA. Each channel would pay to be part of the multiplex (no need for the customer to pay) and advertisers would be spending money in Ireland.

It is a fact that 300,000,000 is total amount spent on Advertising on TV each year. I am not pulling that figure out of the air. RTE + TV3 have about 200,000,000 between them and TG4 has about 5,000,000, C6 about 1million. I cannot break down the rest of the 300,000,000. some goes to Setanta, Sky Sports and some other channels. C4 and UTV could be more expencive then I actually estimate.

www.rte.ie, www.tg4.ie will provide detail of advertising reveune from each semistate body. TV3 are happy to point out what they earn each year and medialive will tell you the full figure.

Take these figures into acount all of the other channels earn 20,000,000 each year. 20,000,000 not spent in Ireland. 20,000,000, to be honest I think it is far more then this.

From TG4 annual report (Advertising Revenue Est. bar TG4 which comes from TG4 annual report).
RTE ONE = 23.5
RTE TWO = 13 = Altogether around 150,000,000 advertising revenue
TV3 = 12.3 = around 60,000,000euro
TG4 = 3 = 3,700,000euro advertising revenue
BBC1 = 6.1
BBC2 = 3.4 = NONE
UTV = 5.5 = 5 - 6 MILLION
C4 = 4.2 = 5 - 6 MILLION
Sky One = 2.2
Sky News = 1.3 = 3MILLION

Other = 25.5 = A POTENTIAL OF ????? EST 100,000,000 EURO. I have reduced my est. down but it is still quite high.

I think the english channels bar the BBC will sell advertising to the Irish Market. The other problem with this est is that it could come directly from 300,000,000 reducing the total spend on Irish channels down to around 100,000,000. That would be the ultimate failure IMO.

Also RTE spend 20,000,000 on 11,000 hours of IMPORTED TV each year that less than 2000 euro per hour.

L1011

You're not getting the point

TV advertising is *always* a saturated market. Theres only so many people to watch the ads and they all watch TV anyway.

Say we get ten new entrants, what would happen is there'd be a slight increase in ad spend if any - about 310,00,000 probably and thats mostly due to the overhead of trying to make sure some products are saturation marketed. But it'd be divided more thinly

All the existing channels get hurt. New channels fail due to miniscule amounts of money coming to them.

Believe me - I've worked in this and seen the figures for a maturing market - UK with 60 channels in 1997 to 600 in 2006. There will be no more money coming in for advertising even with more channels.

Elmo

Say we get ten new entrants, what would happen is there'd be a slight increase in ad spend if any - about 310,00,000 probably and thats mostly due to the overhead of trying to make sure some products are saturation marketed. But it'd be divided more thinly

My last comment suggests that exactly.

I think the english channels bar the BBC will sell advertising to the Irish Market. The other problem with this est is that it could come directly from 300,000,000 reducing the total spend on Irish channels down to around 100,000,000. That would be the ultimate failure IMO.

I don't think anyone wants that. Do you? The 100,000,000 is prob a low est for effect

Also 35% of the market aren't getting ads. Would the BBC get 35% of current spend in British advertising or just take 35% of the current total available in the UKs Advertising market?

L1011

No, your last comment claims there'll be about 100M (down from 200M in the previous one!) more coming in to the market

Can you make your mind up, please?

Elmo

I was trying to point out 2 possiblities: -

1. That their is around 100,000,000 untapped in advertising revenue in Ireland due to the BBC and other English Channels not selling advertisement to the Irish markets. Bring the total spend to 400,000,000 euro, if the advertiser sell some advertising space. (35% of viewers do not have any Irish Adverts.)

AND

2. Then we could have the situation where we invite x number of English channels into the irish market and they begin selling advertising only to find that those sales adversly effect the 4 irish channels push their sales down, as you say, to a saturated market. So for exampe RTE currently has 150,000,000 in advertising revenue this could be push down to 90,000,000 (their market share remains the same) but over all there is only a small increase in the total spend in advertising revenue (Just like what you said from 300 - 310).

I am just point out the two possiblities. I like the first option.

Do you feel that if the BBC start selling advertising in the UK that it would have an adverse effect on advertising revenue for ITV?

watty

There is no "untapped" advertising revenue.

Only new ways of distributing it.

The large brands already get a small incremental value on Satellite and Cable on Adverts on UK channels. No-one is going to actively promote it as that would upset the status quo.

The BBC *CAN* and *DOES* sell advertising to Irish Market/Outside UK. Ever been to BBC web site or watched BBC World TV?

The BBC used to sell BBC Prime here. No market for it anymore

ITV revenue has fallen due to C4 and Five and then later Satellilte/Cable.

But many channels are only a small % so advertisers will pay little to be on them.

The Advertisers will not pay more. Infact over the next two years revenue is likely to shrink


Note that EVEN BEFORE SATELLITE over 75% of households in Ireland had ITV.

Irish DTT won't and can't magic more money from anywhere. If people want PayTV they will pay Sky/UPC not 1/2 the money for a toy channel line up.

BBC & ITV is actually cheap to put on DTT (probably 5 UK channels worth of royalty a 1/10th of TG4 running costs). It would actually cost more to run the Mux and feed than for the royalties!

The Pay TV channels are expensive because you have to pay for encryption, sales, call center and much more for the content as well as Mux costs. It would be small incremental cost for UPC. Hence a natural partner for RTE.

The more attractive and better presented "onevision" I'm afraid is probably much less viable.

icdg

watty wrote: »

The BBC *CAN* and *DOES* sell advertising to Irish Market/Outside UK. Ever been to BBC web site or watched BBC World TV?

The BBC used to sell BBC Prime here. No market for it anymore

There was a market for it before????? Who????

(I don't think I've ever seen an advert specifically aimed at the Republic of Ireland on BBC World (or BBC World News as we must now call it), either.)

As for the substantive question - it appears none of the applicants have learnt from ONdigital and its ultimate failure. If two leading television companies, starting in a market which had a lower percentage of multichannel takeup in 1998 than Ireland does now, still could not make a pay-TV service over DTT work, what hope does any of the three applicants. Particualarly Easy TV, who own the DTT platform's biggest rival and have a vested interest in seeing pay-DTT fail.

I must stress, I don't WANT to see pay-DTT fail, before someone states so. DTT would bring a third player to a pay-TV market that has become a UPC-Sky duopoly, and thus increase competition in the market. Which is good. But it is too late to the market, and can only ever offer an inferior service to either UPC or Sky. Refusniks will need an incentive to switch to DTT (so that switch-off can occour) but given the choice of paying €100 extra for a DTT box just to recieve the same channels they already recieving, or maybe one or two extra (one of which will be the hardly compelling Oireachtas Channel) , I know which way most will swing.

watty

Sorry.. ICDG.

Only BBC's web site has specifically Irish targeted adverts. The BBC Enterprizes Channels are more general advertising. The BBC Prime market was indeed small in Ireland and basically stuttered when FTV cards & BBC on Sky and finally died with FTA BBC Satellite. (I had a letter with the pricing for Ireland!). Obviously it didn't compete with Cable, MMDS, Deflectors and direct reception via big poles.

I pretty much agree with what you say, except I don't beleive UPC has a vested interest in it failing as long as they control it I think they very much see it as competiton to Sky, not cable. MMDS is poor coverage, expensive to run, poor signals many customers and losing badly to Sky. Also pressure is increasing to recycle the licence sooner rather than later for WiMax (That UPC may bid for).

The only thing is that now there is MPEG4, so twice as many channels per mux. I don't want to see it fail like OnDigital, but I'm very sceptical of costings of anything other than RTE/UPC plan, and sceptical even of it.

Elmo

When I asked the question what would happen if the BBC started selling advertising I was talking about in the UK on their TV services not internationally.

I was asking if with the BBC's 35% audience share they started selling advertising revenue would it reduce ITV's or C4 or FIVEs advertising revenue?

In the UK would the BBC take a 35% share of the current total avertising revenue for TV or would the just add their share to the pot?

The BBC makes plenty of commerical money.

There is no "untapped" advertising revenue.

Only new ways of distributing it.

If this is the case the new English channels selling advertising in Ireland will reduce the Advertising Revenue of Irish channels even if they don't take any of their audience.

DMC

DMC wrote: »

Mr. DMC goes to the Westbury.

The presentations:

Boxer: (Boxer Sweden/Communicorp/BT)
They say they operate on "no conflict, pure platform, no vested interests" They also said that it would be inappropriate for broadcasters to own muxes.

They offer low cost entry: Free box.
6 PSB mux + 7 pay at €7.99pm, 18 more pay channels for €22.99, a kids only option for €4.99pm, multi-room 50% discount. There will also be a pre-pay ready-to-go option, I believe 3 months from the slides. They also offer its mobility and portability. They will spend €20m over 4 years marketing it.

They spent a good bit of time mentioning the finances of Communicorp, naming the consortium "The Dream Team". Boxer also said they they have learned the lessons of Sweden, and their trial and error with customer hardware.

BT have mentioned in their bit that they will work with RTÉ NL on the development, as they have in the trial.

They will also introduce a "Swedish national icon" in the shape of Robert, who concluded the presentation running up a street to the Rocky "trying hard now" Bill Conti theme.

Conclusion: really used the Denis O'Brien "underdog" card here, punching above their weight. BT's only real offering was that it runs the current trial. They should've checked their TX map, there was a transmitter in Armagh! No channel line-ups, no mention of HD.

Easy TV. (RTE/Liberty Global)
Lots of focus on broadcast quality. Only 8 channels per mux (24 in all). RTÉ made play that they will be using commercial money and not the licence fee. Liberty Global will draw on its expertise in local markets such as Ireland (for those not in the know, they own Chorus/NTL.)

RTÉ NL's involvement was mentioned first, playing on its unrivaled local knowledge with the contacts of 450 installers,

Channels and packages include the 8 FTA mux, "Soft pay", which is the UK 4 and some Irish commercials, 9 in all for €8pm, "Mid-pay" 13 more for €8 more and then the premium, "Sky and Setanta" (vagueness depends on negotiations) with no price mentioned. Also a pre-pay option.

Set-top box will be €99 - €149 or €5pm, Mid-pay will have a PVR option.
Return to focus on not overloading the muxes. They are also aware of DTO in Wales is next year, and will target the east coast early in 2009. Otherwise, 85% by Q4 2009, and highest urban and population coverage higher than the BCI requirement 2 years early. Retail with big stores and independents.

€16m marketing budget, and brand activity will occur along side UK DSO. Rigney Dolphin in Waterford will be a call centre partner. They will also sell the service "wholesale to mobile phone networks", it will have HD and also VOD.

Again, reiteration of no licence fee involvement in this, and it will be a stand alone operation, not a loss leader, and the service will have the lowest cost, with the highest quality.

Conclusion: Disorganised presentation, not the best of speakers, sloppy PowerPoint to be quite frank. Liberty Global made play that they were "platform neutral". WTF? But the detail was there, and it was good detail. RTÉ made play of how popular the RTÉ TV channels are, but as these are on the PSB mux, is it that important to the presentation?? They will offer the lowest amount of channels at the highest quality, I dunno if that will be a winner.

OneVision: (Eircom/Setanta/TV3/Arqiva)
Offering "the complete solution", there was an added announcement that Gerry Robinson, ex-Granada head will be on board. Also mentioned the "affordable" nature of their product.

Arqiva made play that they have been involved in building the first DTT network over the past ten years, and will work with RTÉ NL on 53 sites, 93% population coverage by 2012.

Pricing: If you buy the box, you get 10 channels for free, that's the PSB mux and some of theirs. For €9.99, you get 33 channels, including all the UK 4 and TV3 Today and TV3 Expose. Their market research said that 43% would like this package. Premium channels from Setanta and Sky were mentioned, but no price.

They were offering their solution as buy a box and plug and play. They will also have call centre support. (all 3 will anyway) Distribution it appears already agreed with DSGi, Harvey Norman, DID, Tesco, Dunnes and also indies.

Conclusion: A blast of Queen to launch, real attention getter. Presentation was slick, very good, and it appears well rehearsed speakers. The presentation which had the most secure channel lineup.

In full conclusion:
I can't see Boxer getting it. Easy TV while technically sound, it was plain to see that RTÉ were making sure there wasn't a conflict on the national broadcaster owning all of the DTT spectrum, and also do Liberty global see this as a way of extinguishing MMDS? What will the BCI think, if they haven't thought of that already? OneVision just didn't appear to make any real mistakes today.

The key thing here is its between OneVision and EasyTV.

Excelent summary.

Would someone tell me now though, the commercial logic in asking for €9 a month[even with a free box] for the 4 UK channels and some unknown as yet new wishy washy un proven irish channels Versus keeping me auld sat dish? It worse than a fuel sur charge-Anyone that would pay it can give the money to me instead or burn it-same difference.

Elmo

Each will carry FTA channels which will not need a subscription. And the New English Channels which are available on every other platform and they will eat into Irish Advertising Revenue.

Just in the same way as the BBC would eat into UK Advertising Revenue if they start selling advertising space. At least I now know that ITV would and should be totally againist the ending of the licence fee.

channelsurfer

I remember a couple years ago someone saying that ntl/chorus pay 1.30 per bbc channel per subscriber per month so if you multiply that by 4 it works out at a minimum of 5euro per month that any DTT operator will have to pay in order for to have the UK FTA channels on it unless they can negotiate a substantially lower wholesale rate than upc.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

When I asked the question what would happen if the BBC started selling advertising I was talking about in the UK on their TV services not internationally.

I was asking if with the BBC's 35% audience share they started selling advertising revenue would it reduce ITV's or C4 or FIVEs advertising revenue?

Bit of a red herring that. Huge hypothetical. That would be defended to the death, the BBC will never do ads for a domestic audience, certainly not this side of a new Royal Charter. By then, the digital dust will have settled, but the British public would want no ads on their BBC. It would be a hard habit to break.

Elmo wrote: »

If this is the case the new English channels selling advertising in Ireland will reduce the Advertising Revenue of Irish channels even if they don't take any of their audience.

If there were more competing British channels seeking revenue from Irish advertising, they'd all starting fighting for the same content, paying more than €2,000 per episode, ultimately more than a small Irish based channel they can afford, and nobody wins. The result would be that all channels become watered down.

If Sky One was on DTT here, at €1 million an episode for Lost do you think they'd pass at the Irish rights? There, RTÉ would lose the ad revenue from that, making RTÉ more reliant on the licence fee.

As watty said, there is no more untapped advertising revenue, just more division of the existing cake.

DMC

channelsurfer wrote: »

I remember a couple years ago someone saying that ntl/chorus pay 1.30 per bbc channel per subscriber per month so if you multiply that by 4 it works out at a minimum of 5euro per month that any DTT operator will have to pay in order for to have the UK FTA channels on it unless they can negotiate a substantially lower wholesale rate than upc.

Sky upped their price by ~IR£2 back in 2001 when BBC 1 and 2 NI launched. And that was just for 2 channels. Payable to BBC Worldwide.

Its for that reason why the BBC channels will have to be behind a subscription on Irish DTT.

Elmo

If Sky One was on DTT here, at €1 million an episode for Lost do you think they'd pass at the Irish rights? There, RTÉ would lose the ad revenue from that, making RTÉ more reliant on the licence fee.

And that could happen under the current 3 plans for DTT roll out. I am not denying that.

Bit of a red herring that. Huge hypothetical. That would be defended to the death, the BBC will never do ads for a domestic audience, certainly not this side of a new Royal Charter. By then, the digital dust will have settled, but the British public would want no ads on their BBC. It would be a hard habit to break.

It doesn't answer the question. If a tory government came into power tomorrow and sold off BBC causing it to start selling advertising revenue, would it eat into other broadcasters advertising revenue or would it create a new opertunity for more ad space as 35% of the audience are not watch TV with advertisements (not effecting other broadcasters)? Hypotetically speaking if you like either way it is an important point to make if anyone wants to make it.

DMC

Elmo wrote: »

It doesn't answer the question. If a tory government came into power tomorrow and sold off BBC causing it to start selling advertising revenue, would it eat into other broadcasters advertising revenue or would it create a new opertunity for more ad space as 35% of the audience are not watch TV with advertisements (not effecting other broadcasters)? Hypotetically speaking if you like either way it is an important point to make if anyone wants to make it.

I made that point in my last post but one, along with watty earlier.

There will be no new advertisers. Same cake, more slices. Just because an "advert funded BBC" comes onto the market does that mean that the market will increase. It will just make ad-men cuter as to where to spend their money, and move it from other channels.

Advertisers will go to where the public is, and not spend more than they have to.

Remember that Google has overtaken ITV in advertising revenue.

Look at the way that over the years ITV has seen its audience decline, its revenue has declined, as more and more viewers move to multi-channel and onto the net. It has accelerated in the last few years since Freeview and Sky have taken off in the UK, along with Britain's high update of the internet.

If Murdoch backs the Tories in the next UK election, (which he will) its vitally important to him that they don't let the BBC get advertising.