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Conversation with a muslim
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02-05-2008 12:11pm#1
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I swear on the very beings of my existance that it is entirely true. I have names, I have a place and many people saw me- its pretty ignorant of you to ASSUME that I am lying, despite the fact that I was pro-Islam (albeit having doubts) before I talked to this person
Hmm... Well I apologise then, sorry. It just read too much like a parody/quintessential example of everything people dislike about "evil muslims" etc.. Oh dear, in that case... Oh dear...
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Yeah, play nice people
Regardless of whether or not that conversation happened, I think that Jannah at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. Only God can know her true intention. As it happens, I too was taken aback by the presence of the word "worship" but we could put it down to a typo for now.
As for your questions Jannah, they have all actually been covered on this forum at one stage or another. If you like, I could try my best to answer them one at a time keeping in mind that I'm not a scholar. Might be better through PM to avoid massive off-topic posts and attacks by other posters if you're looking for concise answers. On the other hand, they can be done here on the forum but I'd suggest one question per thread and not moving on to the next question until the first one has been dealt with.
Finally, that guy (from the conversation in the original post) is an idiot. Ignorance of Islam in non-Muslims is bad but ignorance of Islam in Muslims is even worse! Oh, woe is me!!0 -
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My only question Jannah, is why is it you were 'pro-islam' in the first place? And what does it mean to be 'pro-islam'? Is it, you adhere to its teachings? You support Islamic agenda's but don't practice the faith etc? I'm a bit confused. 0
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I wouldn't agree with that. I think that in some cases, it's that a certain aspect of religion is not properly understood so it might seem at first to be immoral but, upon closer inspection and better understanding of the religious principle, it's not what you originally thought. I think that in other cases, it could also be a case of perhaps not quite realising quite how immoral something is. Sometimes, it's religion that can be your moral compassDinoBot wrote:You need to switch off you moral compass to follow religion. I guess it depends on your faith. If you believe in God and you believe that the Quran/Bible/Torah's commandments are God's commandments then you accept that perhaps you don't necessarily see the whole picture or perhaps don't quite "get it" as it were. There are some things that I didn't quite get before and get now and there are some things that I'm still learning as I grow older.
Same here actually. Perhaps you might clear up our clouds of confusion for us Jannah?JimiTime wrote:I'm a bit confused. I saw in your roll call post that you said that you were a "a practicing Muslim" and now you're saying that you were pro-Islam. I hope you're not one of those people who pretends to be Muslim just to bring it into disrepute later on. I'm not saying you are mind you. Just saying that I hope you're not so please don't take that the wrong way 
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I can actually.DinoBot wrote:Can you give an example of something you didnt get but now do.
I spent most of my youth in Europe and I remember having a conversation with an aunt of mine in Egypt about how I thought that the main reason that people made such a big deal about a woman's arms not being covered was because they weren't used to it. In many ways, that's actually quite true. If it's very common then it becomes the norm... but only to an extent. Looking back on it now, I can see that I was lying to myself a little bit really. Not only that but as I got older, I think that I myself began to realise more and more the significance and beauty of a woman's arms. That's me being brutally honest now Even though I was born a Muslim, I hadn't really thought about it honestly with myself until I got a bit older.
Also, I think that there have been enough poems and songs by Western poets and songwriters about the beauty of a woman's body and the arms are often mentioned.
So, I can see how I thought back then to how I think now upon further reflection. One plus about that is that I can see how a non-Muslim or someone on the outside may see Islam or think so that helps a bit when I'm talking about it with them. Unfortunately, so many Muslims just don't get how a non-Muslim might see it and sort of "talk down" on them as a result.
I think that each of those has been handled already on this forum (as you well know) so I won't go into them here. Suffice to say that with each of those, people either have a misunderstanding or are misinformed.DinoBot wrote:I never got the part of marrying a child, slavery, segregation of the sexes, hijab ........
Just for the record, there is talk about the authenticity of this hadith especially considering how there is no mention of stoning in the Quran.DinoBot wrote:Is the Sharia cruel ? Is this view against Islam. Was the prophet wrong in stoning the woman ?
Even if the hadith is authentic, it's important and only fair to explain it in detail. The Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) was actually reluctant to stone the woman although she requested it. She wanted to be stoned right away but he said to go and give birth first to give the child a chance at life hoping that she would change her mind once she gave birth. After giving birth, she is reported to have come back insisting that she now received the punishment. He then instructed her to spend two years nursing the child again hoping that she would change her mind but, after the two years, she returned and left the Prophet with no apparent choice.
That's what the hadith says but, as I say, it's not definite that it's authentic.
It is a man's right but it's also a man's responsibility to ensure that he's not causing his first wife to be miserable. In the end, a man would have to be stupid if it was going to drive his wife crazy.DinoBot wrote:If a woman complains about her husband taking on a second wife, who's problem is this ? Is it not a mans right given by God to take on a second wife ? Or should he listen to his wife and obey what she wants ?
One should remember the advice of the Prophet Mohamed:
"The best of you are the best to their families and I am the best to mine"
It's worth mentioning here that a lot of people often get the idea of a man with more than one wife as some kind of womanising guy or something. Unfortunately, this is the case sometimes but certainly not always. It's confirmed that the Prophet himself had a number of wives but it's very important to know the circumstances that each one was married under. A large majority of them were old widows in need for financial and emotional support. Some of them were to bring peace between tribes. People back then were so ridiculous that they used to begin blood feuds because of losing a horse race!! So, the Prophet often put an end of feuds by marrying a member of the other tribe.
So, if someone is so enthusiastic about following the Prophet's example, perhaps they should see if they can find an old widow that needs companionship instead of just following their lusts (as some men do).
Concerning the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha (only one of three wives who were under the age of 30 when the Prophet married them and only one of two who wasn't previously a widow), I think I've already talked at length about this subject. To summarise:
1.: I don't believe that Aisha was actually that young when she married the Prophet (due to a combination of information from various hadith) and was in fact in her mid-teens or even as late as 18.
2.: Even if she was young, there is a difference between marriage and the consummation of marriage. According to the stories of Aisha being very young at the age of marriage (which I've already stated I don't think is true), Aisha was quite young at the age or marriage (between 7 and 9) but the marriage wasn't consummated until later (between 11 and 14). It's worth remembering also that people back then literally matured earlier because that's the way they were brought up. For example, Osama Bin Zaid was the leader of the Muslim army at 18!! I think that at 18, I might have been fit to lead my friends on a trip to England but certainly not to be a military commander
Psychologists today also state how, despite the fact that a lot of people may become old for their age at a young age, people are actually maturing to full maturity later and later these days. I'd say I can vouch for that if some crazy antics with my friends from my college days are anything to go by
Below is an article that I got from some forum some time go about how Aisha was actually older. People here might find it interesting.Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
The Ancient Myth Exposed
by T.O. Shanavas
A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.
However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.
The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.
In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.
So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.
EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source
Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.
Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).
It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).
Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).
CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.
CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:
• pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
• 610 CE: First revelation
• 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
• 613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
• 615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
• 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
• 620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
• 622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
• 623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet
EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal
According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.
However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).
If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.
CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.
EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima
According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).
If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.
CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.
EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age
According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).
According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).
According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)
According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).
According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.
If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.
Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?
CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.
EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud
A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.
It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”
Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud
CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.
EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).
Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.
CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.
EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.
All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).
CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.
EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text
All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?
There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).
In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.
Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.
In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.
Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?
AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.
CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.
EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage
A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.
By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.
It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.
Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.
CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.
SUMMARY:
It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.
Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.
Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.
T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.0 -
Yes, yes and yes again!! Thats exactly what I came to the conclusion of too- the more I looked into the religion the more I saw things that had to be justified in a way that just wasn't my moral idea of 'right'. It seemed that whenever I asked a Muslim a question (even an iman) they would respond in a roundabout way that didn't answer what I had asked at all. But even the answers that are out there, I just really can't condone any of those ideas- we don't need religion to know what is right from wrong. Will being fluent in Arabic, knowing a couple surahs or knowing prayer positions make me any better of a person than what I would be if I just followed my common sense?!I think Islam creates a mindset that converts don't have because chances are , their moral framework was build up in a secular society and not an Islamic one.
When I felt that following Islam was actually going against what I felt to be morally correct, I knew at that point, religion is not for me.
You need to switch off you moral compass to follow religion.My only question Jannah, is why is it you were 'pro-islam' in the first place? And what does it mean to be 'pro-islam'? Is it, you adhere to its teachings? You support Islamic agenda's but don't practice the faith etc? I'm a bit confused.
I was pro-Islam because I believed that its ideals were something that I could agree on and something that I shared by beliefs with. In the end I realised that what I was reading the the Qur'an was something that I had known for all my life- treat otheres kindly. The fact is, when one book is given such an elevated status, it is left open for people to interpret to suit themselves and for their own agendas (political or otherwise) when the actual fact is that we don't NEED a book to tell us what to do- we already know! 7th century Arabia may have needed someone to say "Hey, stop killing your little girls and beating your women" but these days, we've matured beyond its teachingsthe_new_mr wrote: »I wouldn't agree with that. I think that in some cases, it's that a certain aspect of religion is not properly understood so it might seem at first to be immoral but, upon closer inspection and better understanding of the religious principle, it's not what you originally thought.
Why should anyone have to justify something that was decided upon so long ago and try to make it relevant? Why can't we all just live with the human rights we have now and be grateful that overall intelect of the people has evolved beyond this text so that it is oppressing people instead of helping them. Some of the greatest crimes of humanity have been in the name of religion.
And the moral of the story- allow men to develop their own respect for women! Why should us women bake in the summer heat in long sleeves because of the fault of men? Did they ever think of the practicality of wearing long clothes? No. Something I've only started realising recently is the huge increase of women converting to Islam in the west... at the same time that image is becoming hugely emphasised. How will women ever learn to accept their bodies and change how people relate to them when they throw in the towel and decide to don hijab? And yes, a lot do it of their free will, but I really do think that some women adopt hijab/ niqab to hide their insecurities and not their beauty.the_new_mr wrote: »Not only that but as I got older, I think that I myself began to realise more and more the significance and beauty of a woman's arms. That's me being brutally honest now Even though I was born a Muslim, I hadn't really thought about it honestly with myself until I got a bit older.
Yes, not specifically stoning, but it does say in the qu'ran:the_new_mr wrote: »Just for the record, there is talk about the authenticity of this hadith especially considering how there is no mention of stoning in the Quran.
4:15 "As for those who are guilty of lewdness from among your women, bring four witnesses against them from among yourselves, and if they bear witness, confine them to their houses till death takes them away or God makes some way for them"
So if we are to be proper Muslims and believe the word of God, then we SHOULD believe that women who have sex outside marriage deserve to die. Notice how they only mention 'women'- men, on the other hand, only get flogged for the same crime. Ahhh, equality.
I'm quite weary of how people will tell me "Well, I've never seen it happen" or "hmmm, yes, but its very hard to find 4 witnesses" - the fact is that these things DO happen and they are allowed in the name of God.
Yes, he did, but the same man also hit his 'favourite' wife Aisha when she left the house without his permission:the_new_mr wrote: »One should remember the advice of the Prophet Mohamed: "The best of you are the best to their families and I am the best to mine"
Hadith 4:2127 "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Are these the actions of a loving husband?
You mentioned that Muhammad married women to solve feuds, help old widows etc... what ever happened to talking things over? What about giving charity and allowing these womens to support themselves and have some dignity? Surely these would have been better solutions that to propose a loveless marriage to solve their problems?
The vast majority of scholars agreed that Aisha was 6 when married and 9 when this marriage was consumated. Once again, maturity is questionable- she left her dolls when she went to marry Muhammad. Also, its worth noting that biologically if one choosing to do the deed with a child it can cause for her to become infertile... how many children did Aisha have in her long marriage to Muhammad...??
http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://marcsteinerblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/nyt1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://marcsteinerblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/21/221-child-brides-stolen-lives/&h=425&w=650&sz=337&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=opGPitCerZxRGM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchild%2Bbrides%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DN
This man is YOUNGER than Muhammad would have been and the girl is OLDER than Aisha would have been. Does maturity count much when you look at the likes of that? The fact is, and Dinobot made this point earlier, that because Muhammad married a child, there is no way of protecting the children in Sharia ruled countries today because the men can justify it by saying if the prophet can do it, why can't he?0 -
No, it won't. You don't need to be fluent in Arabic, just memorising a few Surahs and knowing how to pray will never make you a better person. It's the spiritual development that can be done as a result. Not forgetting the relationship that you develop with God if you believe that He gives commands to pray, be charitable, etc.Jannah wrote:Will being fluent in Arabic, knowing a couple surahs or knowing prayer positions make me any better of a person than what I would be if I just followed my common sense?!
Even greater crimes have been done when religion has had nothing to do with it. World wars 1 and 2, Stalin etc.Jannah wrote:Why should anyone have to justify something that was decided upon so long ago and try to make it relevant? Why can't we all just live with the human rights we have now and be grateful that overall intelect of the people has evolved beyond this text so that it is oppressing people instead of helping them. Some of the greatest crimes of humanity have been in the name of religion.
It might seem like a nice idea to just "let our common sense guide us" but, alas, one person's sense of common sense is different to another's. So, it's not so common.
I'm offended that you say such a thing. Are you implying that I don't have any respect for women? That's very hurtful. I think you'll find that I have the utmost respect for women. Don't take my word for it. Ask my sister or other female family members. Perhaps you should take off your goggles with the stereotypical mist applied to them and start thinking for yourself?Jannah wrote:And the moral of the story- allow men to develop their own respect for women!
You yourself mentioned in another thread on here about how it's to do with modesty and following God's command out of love for Him and how it gives a woman a feeling of empowerment when she's being appreciated for who she is rather than just what she looks like.
Don't forget that God tells me to lower my gaze. Men aren't supposed to ogle and women's bodies. If a women showing a certain amount of skin walks by. I try my best not to look because I know that:
a) God tells me not to
b) The woman deserves not to be looked at
c) It's better for my soul not to look
A lot of this kinda goes back to my post about Understanding Islam from the front door. If you're a Muslim and you sincerely believe that these are the commandments of God then you can find it easier to follow them. That's not to say that there's wisdom behind them. Sometimes, we may know the wisdom behind them and sometimes we may not. In the end, we have the choice of whether or not to follow them.
Who is this "they" that you speak of? Clearly, you don't believe that Islam is a message from God. That's your choice and you're completely free to hold that opinion but I don't believe that these rules were man made and neither does any Muslim who follows them. I think that if you ask any Muslim woman who wears hijab (convert or not) then they'll tell you that they're doing it because they know that God wants them to do it (out of modesty as commanded in the Quran). And if that's not why they're doing it then they're doing it for the wrong reasons.Jannah wrote:Did they ever think of the practicality of wearing long clothes?
And men are supposed to be modest in clothing too you know. We don't cover our hair but we aren't supposed to wear any clothes that reveal any more than they need to.
The verse you refer to is with reference to lesbianism by the way. A slightly better translation (by Mohamed Asad):Jannah wrote:4:15 "As for those who are guilty of lewdness from among your women, bring four witnesses against them from among yourselves, and if they bear witness, confine them to their houses till death takes them away or God makes some way for them"
An-Nisa':15
"And as for those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto, confine the guilty women to their houses until death takes them away or God opens for them a way [through repentance]."
Clearly, you are misinformed about the situation of equality with men and women when it comes to fornication outside of marriage. The following verse covers the case for both men and women.
Al-Nur 2-3
"As for the adulteress and the adulterer flog each of them with a hundred stripes, and let not compassion with them keep you from [carrying out] this law of God, if you [truly] believe in God and the Last Day; and let a group of the believers witness their chastisement; [Both are equally guilty:] the adulterer couples with none other than an adulteress - that is, a woman who accords [to her own lust] a place side by side with God; and with the adulteress couples none other than an adulterer - that is, a man who accords [to his own lust] a place side by side with God: and this is forbidden unto the believers."
A hadith was mentioned before concerning the woman who insisted on being stoned after committing adultery. I mentioned how the authenticity of the hadith is being discussed in Islamic circles. It's also important to note that another hadith (whose authenticity is also being discussed) concerns a man in the same kind of situation so it can be seen that even in hadiths whose authenticity is questionable, there is equality in this respect.
And let's keep something in mind here. As I've mentioned on this forum before, who in their right mind would not only commit adultery but also allow four (count'em... FOUR!!) witnesses see them in the act beyond any shadow of a doubt that adultery has been committed? It's almost as if the punishment is more to do with a crime against the society (and God knows best).
And let us look at the very next verse in this surah that warns people against accusing chaste women of adultery.
Al-Nur:4-5
"And as for those who accuse chaste women [of adultery], and then are unable to produce four witnesses [in support of their accusation], flog them with eighty stripes and ever after refuse to accept from them any testimony - since it is they, they that are truly depraved!; excepting [from this interdict] only those who afterwards repent and made amends: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace."
God knows how many times I've heard awful things said about girls with no proof to back up these statements which resulted in the girl's reputation being tarnished.
There's one story of how Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (the second khalipha of the Muslim state after the death of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) mentioned that he was witness to an act of adultery whilst passing by a house in the city.
Upon declaring what he witnessed to the people, Ali (the Prophet's cousin and to be fourth khalipha) said that unless Omar had three other witnesses, he should cease to say what he's saying. Omar then said: "People, I am the khalipha and I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears" upon which Ali replied "Omar! If you mention any names, I shall be forced to flog you 80 times!". Oman quickly realised that he was about to commit a crime and stopped.
I very much doubt the authenticity of this hadith as there are (at least) two very well known hadith against this.Jannah wrote:Hadith 4:2127 "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Are these the actions of a loving husband?
One reported by Aisha saying that she "never saw the Messenger of Allah ever hit a servant of his or a woman of his"
And another where the Prophet said "How can one of you hit his wife as he hits his camel and then sleep in the same bed with her at night?"
Did you read what I said in my last post? These people had feuds because of a horse race!!!Jannah wrote:You mentioned that Muhammad married women to solve feuds, help old widows etc... what ever happened to talking things over? They were nuts!! Somehow, I don't think "talking things over" would have worked in all cases
Who said they were loveless? And what about companionship? And the physical side of a relationship that none of us should be ashamed of?Jannah wrote:What about giving charity and allowing these womens to support themselves and have some dignity? Surely these would have been better solutions that to propose a loveless marriage to solve their problems?
Well, I've said what I can say including the article I quoted. To say that Aisha didn't have any children because she had intercourse before she was able in an awful thing to say. I'd like to see what kind of reaction you get the next time you suggest to a barren woman that she didn't have any children because she was abused as a child.Jannah wrote:The vast majority of scholars agreed that Aisha was 6 when married and 9 when this marriage was consumated.
And perhaps it was simply God's will? The Prophet didn't actually have that many children anyway even with his other wives.
I think that the understanding needs to improve. I believe that God's law is perfect. Unfortunately, human's application of it is not.Jannah wrote:This man is YOUNGER than Muhammad would have been and the girl is OLDER than Aisha would have been. Does maturity count much when you look at the likes of that? The fact is, and Dinobot made this point earlier, that because Muhammad married a child, there is no way of protecting the children in Sharia ruled countries today because the men can justify it by saying if the prophet can do it, why can't he?0 -
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