Conversation with a muslim

Jannah

Hobbes wrote: »

It depends very much on the country. For example UK/Ireland the woman is given preference to bring up the children, not the man. Extremely unfair if you ask me. In South Korea (not a Muslim country) the man has the priority over who keeps the children. Religion doesn't come into it.

Actually, under Irish law parents have joint custody unless one parent is unfit or doesn't want to see the child. Women just happen to be the person who ends up bringing up the children- after all, a guy who abandons their kids is a loser, but a woman who abandons her kids is seen as a complete monster. And yes, religion does come into it, because the laws in these coutries are supposedly the word of God.

And once again, in the case of men's divorce, this is seen as being the word of God and very much a religious issue because these countries aren't secular democracies. It still doesn't rule out the fact that men have a much easier form of divorce from their spouse than women.

The obligation of having a mahram isn't a flaw of a country, its a flaw of extremist religious views and the failure to seperate religion from law.

Ahh, my points on Jews and homosexuals were ignored. Hum...

Hobbes

Jannah wrote: »

Actually, under Irish law parents have joint custody unless one parent is unfit or doesn't want to see the child.

Not completely correct. You will find that shared parenting only happens if both parents agree it is not an issue. When it becomes an issue then the preference tends to favour the mother over the father. Exceptions being you can prove the mother is insane or a junkie (as examples).

That is why you have the likes of "Fathers Rights Party" appearing.

Women just happen to be the person who ends up bringing up the children-

As I said it depends on the country and there are many fathers in Ireland/UK who wouldn't share your opinion.

It still doesn't rule out the fact that men have a much easier form of divorce from their spouse than women.

Depends on the country tbh. Yemen for example the man only has to say I divorce you once. But in the UK for example they still have to follow UK law.

Also you fail to point out that when a man divorces a woman he is not entitled to take back any gifts from the woman he may of given. If the woman divorces then he can claim back wedding gifts. In the case of settlement the man is only entitled to half his assets at most. The woman on the other hand does not have to share any of her assets with the husband. Again I am sure this varies from country to country.

Also as I understand it in Muslim laws a husband divorcing a wife without a valid reason is considered to be a bad Muslim.

Although I would like to know more about the option of beating your wife as a means to reconciliation. Seems a bit contradictory.

The obligation of having a mahram isn't a flaw of a country, its a flaw of extremist religious views and the failure to seperate religion from law.

Normally only because the extremists run the country.

Ahh, my points on Jews and homosexuals were ignored. Hum...

Perhaps if you worded in a context that was consistent with the forums charter you would not receive such a negative response. Or if that is not possible there are other forums on boards.ie you can continue that.

Jannah

Hobbes wrote: »

Depends on the country tbh. Yemen for example the man only has to say I divorce you once. But in the UK for example they still have to follow UK law.

That just proves my point- while Islamic law doesn't cater for equality towards women in regards to divorce, secular law does.

Hobbes wrote: »

Also you fail to point out that when a man divorces a woman he is not entitled to take back any gifts from the woman he may of given. If the woman divorces then he can claim back wedding gifts. In the case of settlement the man is only entitled to half his assets at most. The woman on the other hand does not have to share any of her assets with the husband. Again I am sure this varies from country to country.

What good are little rings and trinkets when a woman can't even keep her own children?? To me it seems like a half-hearted settlement on the men's behalf.

[quote=Hobbes;55926591}Also as I understand it in Muslim laws a husband divorcing a wife without a valid reason is considered to be a bad Muslim. Although I would like to know more about the option of beating your wife as a means to reconciliation. Seems a bit contradictory. Normally only because the extremist run the country[/quote]
Women can't use the reason that a husband is beating her up as reason for divorce in Saudi Arabia (consult Carmen Bin Ladin's book if you have any qualms about that fact) and if a man chooses to divorce her wife in court, the woman doesn't even have to be present. Her consent is not required and she doesn't have any safeguard against her husband casually depriving her of her home. The Muslim man is not required to give a reason, or register the divorce with any religious or secular institution. A Muslim woman, however, can obtain a divorce only with her husband's consent. (source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_4_28/ai_94208061)
Equality... ha!

Hobbes wrote: »

Perhaps if you worded in a context that was consistent with the forums charter you would not receive such a negative response. Or if that is not possible there are other forums on boards.ie you can continue that.

In fairness, it was a pretty fair question- the Qur'an clearly states that Jews are pigs and apes, and it is a very fair question to ask if, since Islam is opposed to Jews, would they have been opposed to the Holocaust? And as for the homosexual aspect, that aswell was a very valid point- I know we have to be PC and whatnot, but its pretty difficult to ignore obvious facts

Hobbes

Jannah wrote: »

That just proves my point- while Islamic law doesn't cater for equality towards women in regards to divorce, secular law does.

No it doesn't. I just took 2 countries as an example. The rules change from country to country.

What good are little rings and trinkets when a woman can't even keep her own children?? To me it seems like a half-hearted settlement on the men's behalf.

What if the woman owns her own business? In which case the husband gets nothing. How about the husband not being entitled to keep all his assets? I agree it is unfair though when one gender gets preference over who keeps the children.

Women can't use the reason that a husband is beating her up as reason for divorce in Saudi Arabia

Actually that is not what I meant at all. Part of the reconciliation process is that you beat your wife. Step 3? Appears to have limitations (like can only do once) but seems to contradict other parts of the process.

The Muslim man is not required to give a reason,

That is not entirely true. It may be true of say Yemen, but reading up on it the Man can't just divorce a wife for no reason.

A Muslim woman, however, can obtain a divorce only with her husband's consent.

As I understand it from reading various sources that is not completely true either. They do have to go to court. But the wife cannot be forced to stay in a marriage that isn't working. I am not a scholar, but even a casual search on it mentions this.

Again if your picking a particular country as your baseline ymmv.

In fairness, it was a pretty fair question

It is how you word questions here is what is important.

Jannah

Hobbes wrote: »

No it doesn't. I just took 2 countries as an example. The rules change from country to country.

Yet it is the Muslim countries that favour the rights of the man, no?

Hobbes wrote: »

What if the woman owns her own business?

Ahh, but we are assuming that her Mahram (father/ husband/ brother/ son) has given her PERMISSION to do so first...

Hobbes wrote: »

Actually that is not what I meant at all. Part of the reconciliation process is that you beat your wife. Step 3? Appears to have limitations (like can only do once) but seems to contradict other parts of the process.

Ahhh, you're referring to the whole tell her off first, leave her in bed for the second time and beat her the third time? If a man really did believe that a woman was his equal, he wouldn't admonish her like a child. It is said to have to be nothing bigger than a toothbrush and not on their face, but really that sort of punishment is degrading more than anything else, and its interpretation is obviously going to be exploited by a lot of people to beat their wives badly.

The fact is, when one chooses a country to compare laws against and picks Saudi Arabia, this is the destination of every muslim once in their lifetime, this is the direction they face when they pray and this is the area in which the stricted form of Islam is in place. In short, it is Islam in action and if it is flawed... well, what does that say about Islam's ability to work?

Hobbes wrote: »

It is how you word questions here is what is important.

Well I have phrased it twice and I'm sure that people get the drift, yet it remains unanswered. The phrase 'turning a blind eye' comes to mind

Suff

First of all the thread should be called a Conversation with an idiot.
Jannah, if you spoke to one muslim or even 10 this does'nt mean that all of Muslims share the same ridiculous views. otherwise its just a case of stereotyping.

Jannah wrote: »

Ahh, but we are assuming that her Mahram (father/ husband/ brother/ son) has given her PERMISSION to do so first...

Are you serious?...what period of time you're talking about? I have lived over 18 years in what you call "islamic countries" and have never ever witnessed such procedures and regulation of women to travel!:rolleyes:

its interpretation is obviously going to be exploited by a lot of people to beat their wives badly.

Absolutely not, If a man beats his wife then he is responsible for such an act regardless of this religion. domestic violence is an issue in all societies all around the world regardless of their ethnic or religious background.
and the set example is only to demonstrate how silly/belittling/pointless it is to take any violent act with any woman. and if people do exploit the rule they will face their actions when judged.

by the way do I get from you're posts that only muslim men are wife beaters!?

The fact is, when one chooses a country to compare laws against and picks Saudi Arabia, this is the destination of every muslim once in their lifetime, this is the direction they face when they pray and this is the area in which the stricted form of Islam is in place.

You cannot take Saudi and then generalise, it would be very naive of you. Saudi's laws & politics are theirs. Just because the country holds the Holy cities it does'nt mean that everyone should copy them. Real example...Do you find the same rules in other neighbouring Gulf states like Kuwait, UAE, Qatar and Bahrain? what about Syria, Lebanon and Jordan?

I have said this before, cultural background play a role in the practice of any religion. Can you really say that an American Catholic would form the same practice as a say Syrian Catholic?
Even Arabic muslims have different customs and cultural backgrounds. The Gulf region (Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, Yamen) The Cham region (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan). The North Africans (Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania ) The Egyptians tend to have their own with a close link to Sudan.

In short, it is Islam in action and if it is flawed... well, what does that say about Islam's ability to work?

If you really understand the logic of the faith, you'll know that It's been working since the first Prophet Adam (PBUH) all the way until Christ (PBUH)
Islam has the same message that Moses and Christ have brought us and added few more rules. also it is know as the fast growing faith in the world with major converts in Europe and the states.

I would advice you to read more on the subject without any prejudice, just so you'll have a clearer view.

the_new_mr

Before I begin my post, please allow me to apologise for writing quick answers. I'm a little pushed for time at the moment.

Jannah wrote:

But you didn't mention Hitler. I am curious, since in the Qur'an Jews are classed as "swines and apes" does this mean that they were deserving of their punishment? Just a thought.

I'll gladly mention Hitler's name in that bunch of badness. You'll notice that I did mention WW2.

I think you'll find that the Quran describes those Jews who went right up against God's commands in arrogance as swine and apes and not all Jews in general.

Jannah wrote:

I just don't understand why a higher power is needed to be a 'moral' person.

Actually, I've seen situations where someone is very moral even without a religion. It's not completely necessary. Everyone still has a soul. But without religion then it makes it difficult to agree on some laws. And of course there's the main function of religion which is one's relationship with God which is what it's all about in the end.

Jannah wrote:

1. Men are given children following a divorce- surely there should be a fair court procedure in which women can have a chance at taking care of their own children? I have heard of many cases in which women were bribed into staying in an abusive marriage for the sake of keeping their children, which is terribly sad and wrong.

Honestly, I don't know the full deal when it comes to custody and stuff but I'm pretty sure there's nothing in Islamic law that states that a man definitely gets custody every time. I personally know of a case where a couple were divorced and the woman got the child.

Jannah wrote:

2. While men can simply say "I divorce you" 3 times, a women must go through a lengthy court proceedure before being granted a divorce. Why?

As far as I know, this can be discussed during the pre-numptual agreement which is to be treated as any other contract in Islam (a written contract between two parties to be honoured in the eyes of God) so the woman can have the right to just divorce the husband with ease but most Muslim women I know would actually be afraid to have this power. A woman may tend to (but not always as there are always exceptions) to react more on emotion and impulse. Having said that, there are also men who may be the same. Anyway, as I say, it can be decided upon as far as I know.

Jannah wrote:

3. In strict Islamic countries a woman must have a mahram with her if she wishes to leave the house- this mahram (her father/ husband/ even her SON!) is the person who decides whether she travels, works, receives an education... is this not ownership of a fellow human being?

Allow me to take this first opportunity to state the following.

It's very important to draw a distinction between Islamic law (God's law) and the law of a particular state. Saudi Arabia does not follow Sharia law as it is supposed to and the fact that it has the holy lands on it is not significant in this sense.

It would be most unfair of me to say that "because there are loads of cases of priests being with young boys in the Vatican, what does this say about the Catholic church?" I know that that's unfair because that's not how you measure any religion.

It's also worth mentioning that Saudi Arabia wasn't always like this. The overwhelming effect of Wahabism has really begun to cause problems in Saudi Arabia and is unfortunately beginning to spread to some other countries.

So, what I know is that a woman can and does travel alone as long as she's safe (such as in a very public place).

A woman must have a mahram (someone who cannot marry her) with her when she's:
1.: Going to travel in a dodgy area (such as the desert, the jungle)
2.: Going to meet a male who she can marry

And possibly some other situations that don't spring to mind at the moment.

Jannah wrote:

You mentioned that women wear hijab because it is Gods will, which is perfectly correct, but what about the women who DON'T want to wear hijab and who are harassed- or in some cases, beaten- by religious police in the name of Islam?

Please refer to the religious law vs state law statement above.

Jannah wrote:

Surely a woman should have the right to choose? In these cases, it it not fear of God but fear of how society will see her and the punishment that she will recieve that drives her to cover.

You speak the truth. This is unfortunately the case and it stinks like rotten meat. I for one am not happy about it. I doubt that the people who organise these "religious police" even realise they are possibly corrupting the intention of these women thereby changing an act of worship to God to an act of obedience to the state.

Jannah wrote:

They are bullied into shutting their shops and going to Mosques, they are arrested if they don't wear hijab, they are banned from practicing their own religions (all in Saudi Arabia, hope of the 'purest' form of Islam, but I am positive that they happen elsewhere too)

See above.

Jannah wrote:

Oh, excuse me, it is the lesbians and gays who should be killed.

To be technical. Lesbians are not to be killed but rather to be kept at home "until God's opens a way for them through repentance" such as being approached for marriage by someone who doesn't know about/forgives their past.

As for gays, there are differing opinions about how to deal with them. I myself have not researched this area enough to know to be honest with you.

Jannah wrote:

Why should someone have to renounce their own sexuality in order to spare their life? Surely we were all made by God, and therefore deserve to be treated equally? This is such a contradiction, I don't even know where to begin!!

This is much more complicated than that. There's the whole nature vs nurture debate plus the possibility of someone have a hormonal imbalance etc etc.

Jannah wrote:

If a Hadith is unfavourable it is said to be 'unreliable'- so how do we know if ANY of the hadiths have any truth in them whatsoever? Surely if it could include a few mistakes, then it could include many more that we are incertain of? I myself would be very cautious in relying on such a flawed text

While the hadith are not as reliable as the Quran, some of them are said to be "agreed upon" and can usually be taken as fact. Unfortunately, there is a large grey area between those hadiths and hadith classified as "weak". One should do their research before following a hadith that has serious implications. As a general rule, it's okay to follow a hadith that says to do something good straight away without questioning its authenticity but if a hadith is going to have potentially serious implications then it should be thoroughly researched.

Sometimes, even the scholars disagree on the authenticity of a hadith so I guess in a situation like that, you read what you can and then try and make your mind up and finally your heart.

Jannah wrote:

Yes, they fought over a horse race, which, in itself is ridiculious, but I still don't understand why marrying a woman would help solve any problems? To me it sounds like an easy cop out and completely undermines a woman's right to choose her own partner. Lol, what did they say to their grandkids!?! "Hey, grandmaw, tell me about how you fell in love with Grandpaw?" "Well, it all began with a fight about horses..."

I think you underestimate the craziness of it all. Those were very different times with very different customs. It was just the way it was back then.

Oh, and by the way, a woman is never forced to marry someone she doesn't want to. That's one of the most important Islamic principles when it comes to marriage. In fact, there was once a case where a woman came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and asked that she be divorced from her husband. The Prophet asked her a series of questions asking about whether the man was unkind to her, violent, miserly etc to which she answered that he was a good man on all account and that the only reason for her wanting a divorce was just because she couldn't stand to be with him. The Prophet ordered that the marriage end.

Hobbes wrote:

That is why you have the likes of "Fathers Rights Party" appearing.

I know this is completely OT but isn't that for men who aren't married to the mothers?

Hobbes wrote:

Although I would like to know more about the option of beating your wife as a means to reconciliation. Seems a bit contradictory.

This topic has been covered in great detail in other threads. Here's a good link.

Jannah wrote:

What good are little rings and trinkets...

Not all gifts are trinkets. Thousands of pounds can be a gift.

Hobbes

the_new_mr wrote: »

I think you'll find that the Quran describes those Jews who went right up against God's commands in arrogance as swine and apes and not all Jews in general.

Cheers. Actually I was looking for more info on that as that was the first I heard.

I know this is completely OT but isn't that for men who aren't married to the mothers?

Not really sure, I had only heard of them in passing (and occasional batman tying themselves to big ben ). But they cover a load of things.

This topic has been covered in great detail in other threads. Here's a good link.

Just goes to show I don't read everything here. But intresting to learn about "Daraba" meanings.

I am curious (maybe another thread). But as Quran cannot be changed, maybe people have been changing the Arabic language to get around this?

Jannah

Suff wrote: »

First of all the thread should be called a Conversation with an idiot.

Methinks you are very correct! I was talking to him again today and asking him some of the questions I asked here and his answers were "I don't talk to homosexuals" and "Jews... well... nobody likes the Jews..." so I think its fair to say that no matter what religion the guy is he is ignorant to begin with. I know this is definitely not the case, as a muslim came to my class in primary school to speak about his religion once and he was very eloquent and just a really nice person, so I suppose I've seen both the extremist and the normal attitudes.

Suff wrote: »

Are you serious?...what period of time you're talking about? I have lived over 18 years in what you call "islamic countries" and have never ever witnessed such procedures and regulation of women to travel!

Yep, I've read about it various times and I also have a friend currently living in Saudi Arabia and he is responsible for his mother and where and when she goes places because his father has died.

As far as wife beating goes, I would NO WAY say that it is a practice confined to muslims!! Lets just get that clear!! In happens eeeeverywhere. I just think that since the Qur'an is so open to interpretation that that particular section may be misconstrued and used to really harm women. I still don't quite understand why its done. The muslim in school said (one of his few logical moments) that if a muslim breaks their promise, they must fast for 3 days and if, in a fit of anger, a man says to his wife he will beat her, he must fulfill that promise (although lightly) if he is to keep it. That makes sense, I suppose, but I still think there should be allowances on 'promises' made when someone is that emotion to save them the bother of having to embarrass both parties by hitting them with a toothbrush!!

I was using Saudi as an example because of its obvious importance in Islamic terms. What country should I pick? What muslim country has used Sharia in the correct way?

As far as Christ having used the same logic in his time, I think Sharia law could really benefit from the parable about Jesus saying to the people that if they are without sin, may they throw the first stone at the adulterous woman. Personally, I'm not into the whole Catholic side of things at all, but as one of the prophets, it would be wise if this idea could be brought in to countries that carry out this horrible form of punishment.

You mentioned Islam being the fasted growing religion in the world, but I really don't know where this comes in in terms of it being a great religion. Not saying that its bad, just that its fast spread isn't a sign of goodness either.

the_new_mr wrote: »

I think you'll find that the Quran describes those Jews who went right up against God's commands in arrogance as swine and apes and not all Jews in general.

Ahh, is it only the Jews of his time that he means so? But what about the part where it says "There is no compulsion in religion"? Surely the Jews don't have in their Torah that the Muslims are apes and pigs?!

the_new_mr wrote: »

A woman must have a mahram (someone who cannot marry her) with her when she's:
1.: Going to travel in a dodgy area (such as the desert, the jungle)
2.: Going to meet a male who she can marry

Are you sure its only to the dodgy areas? I've read lots of accounts where a woman needs a mahram when going to the shop and pretty frivilous places like that (but then again, these books are based in Saudi). Is the situation in Afghanistan just completely Islam totally misconstrued and gone bananas so?! Because women aren't even allowed on public transport without a man with her there (which pretty much leaves them very much stuck where they are! My biggest fear would be that these women are being almost held captive- not exactly ideal for anyone!!

the_new_mr wrote: »

To be technical. Lesbians are not to be killed but rather to be kept at home "until God's opens a way for them through repentance" such as being approached for marriage by someone who doesn't know about/forgives their past.

This is much more complicated than that. There's the whole nature vs nurture plus the possibility of someone having a hormonal imbalance etc etc

Ahhh now! WHY on earth would someone go through the terrible emotional ordeal of coming out of the closet to their family members if they wouldn't mind repenting it later??! Now, I know that Islam isn't the only religion that is anti-gay, which is pretty much the reason that I'm not endorsing any religion here, but... it just doesn't make sense!! My cousin is gay, and it certainly isn't a hormonal imbalance or a 'phase' or any of the other silly suggestions people make to try and explain it. Thats simply how he was made, and a person can't change- and more importantly, shouldn't change who they are or apologise for what is natural to them for the sake of religion. Surely, if God has made us all, and some people turn out gay, isn't it part of his 'divine plan' that they should be like that?

You're very much correct when it comes to Islam not endorsing forced marriages and I've heard of many instances where it has spoken against them. They seem to be more of a Hindu practice than anything else, although there will always been some madman who will do it in any other religion anyway.

the_new_mr

Hobbes wrote:

Not really sure, I had only heard of them in passing (and occasional batman tying themselves to big ben ). But they cover a load of things.

Yeah, I think those guys are about getting rights for fathers of children who aren't married to the mothers (as in children had out of wedlock).

Hobbes wrote:

I am curious (maybe another thread). But as Quran cannot be changed, maybe people have been changing the Arabic language to get around this?

Maybe another thread is right

I have a few ideas about that which I think are all true. One is that some people have been abusing and misinterpreting the Quran on purpose to suit their needs. Terrorists are famous for doing stuff like this.

Another is that the meaning of the Quran is still being understood. Actually, it's a well known fact that the true 100% meaning of the Quran has still not been understood. Some of the Surahs open with letters such as Alif-Lam-Meem. The reason for the presence there is still not understood by anyone in the world.

I've talked before about how one understanding of a word in the Quran had been misunderstood for literally hundreds of years before it was properly understood. Perhaps it's not even correctly understood even now. Here's that post.

Another theory of mine (and this might not necessarily be correct) is that perhaps God wants a different meaning to be understood at different times because different interpretations may have been needed at different points in human history. It's a possibility. I'm not saying that's the way it is for sure.

Jannah wrote:

Yep, I've read about it various times and I also have a friend currently living in Saudi Arabia and he is responsible for his mother and where and when she goes places because his father has died.

Once again, Saudi is right off.

Jannah wrote:

The muslim in school said (one of his few logical moments) that if a muslim breaks their promise, they must fast for 3 days and if, in a fit of anger, a man says to his wife he will beat her, he must fulfill that promise (although lightly) if he is to keep it. That makes sense, I suppose, but I still think there should be allowances on 'promises' made when someone is that emotion to save them the bother of having to embarrass both parties by hitting them with a toothbrush!!

I don't agree with that. If you have to break your promise then you have to break your promise. He doesn't have to do it. There's nothing wrong with fasting. Besides you're only supposed to fast as a last resort.

Al-Maaida:89
"Allah will not hold you accountable for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will hold you accountable for your deliberate oaths. The expiation of such oath is feeding of ten poor persons on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If it is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths you have sworn. Guard your oaths. Thus Allah does make clear to you His signs, that you may be grateful."

Jannah wrote:

Ahh, is it only the Jews of his time that he means so? But what about the part where it says "There is no compulsion in religion"? Surely the Jews don't have in their Torah that the Muslims are apes and pigs?!

Well, first of all, "no compulsion in religion" means you can't force someone to be a Muslim if they don't want to be.

And I'm sure that there's no mention of Muslims in the sense we know now in the Torah since the Quran came after the Torah and the Gospel even though all the previous Prophets such as Adam, Abraham, Noah etc (peace be upon them all) are considered Muslims as far as the Quran is concerned and even Jews before Jesus (peace be upon him) would have been following God's religion at the time. But, there are good and bad Jews, good and bad Christians and good and bad Muslims and the Quran talks about bad Jews when naming them apes and swine.

Jannah wrote:

Are you sure its only to the dodgy areas? I've read lots of accounts where a woman needs a mahram when going to the shop and pretty frivilous places like that (but then again, these books are based in Saudi). Is the situation in Afghanistan just completely Islam totally misconstrued and gone bananas so?! Because women aren't even allowed on public transport without a man with her there (which pretty much leaves them very much stuck where they are! My biggest fear would be that these women are being almost held captive- not exactly ideal for anyone!!

Yes and yes. Both those countries have it completely crazy.

Jannah wrote:

I was using Saudi as an example because of its obvious importance in Islamic terms. What country should I pick? What muslim country has used Sharia in the correct way?

The sad truth is that there isn't one country today performing Sharia correctly. Malaysia is probably one of the closest. Saudi Arabia have it right on some things but usually not with anything to do with women.

Jannah wrote:

Ahhh now! WHY on earth would someone go through the terrible emotional ordeal of coming out of the closet to their family members if they wouldn't mind repenting it later??! Now, I know that Islam isn't the only religion that is anti-gay, which is pretty much the reason that I'm not endorsing any religion here, but... it just doesn't make sense!! My cousin is gay, and it certainly isn't a hormonal imbalance or a 'phase' or any of the other silly suggestions people make to try and explain it. Thats simply how he was made, and a person can't change- and more importantly, shouldn't change who they are or apologise for what is natural to them for the sake of religion. Surely, if God has made us all, and some people turn out gay, isn't it part of his 'divine plan' that they should be like that?

I've mentioned this before on here and I know it hasn't necessarily been very popular but it's at least a possibility and that's that it could be their test from God. I believe that everyone gets tested in something in particular and a desire for someone of the same sex could be one of those tests that some people get.

I've often heard of people who are completely straight say that they have been tempted (or were in fact tempted) to engage in some same sex activities and described that it came out of some kind of curiosity or perversion. It's possible that homosexuality is a more intense form of these kind of feelings.

Honestly though, I've been interested to find out more about this so that I can try and understand where it comes from a bit better. I don't presume to solve any mystery or come up with any conclusions that other people haven't been able to come up with but I'd definitely like to find out more so that I can know for my own self. Perhaps I'll chat to some gay and lesbian people or something. I don't know.

Anyway, one thing I do know and that's God considers homosexual acts wrong.

Ekancone

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yes, unlike Catholicism *rolls eyes*

Meh, all religions are right about one thing, and that is that all the others are completely wrong.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

Well, first of all, "no compulsion in religion" means you can't force someone to be a Muslim if they don't want to be.

Yet in the Quran they still referr to non-muslims as being:
Covered in shame
Cursed
deaf, dumb and blind
not allowed into paradise
humiliated
in delusion
have lost their souls
will never triumph
and (this is probably Islam at its most ridiculious) 'The worst of creatures':
al-Bayylinah 6. "Verily those who disbelieve from among the people of the book and the polytheists shall in in the fire of Hell, to abide therein forever. It is they who are the worse of creatures"
So while there is freedom of religion, it doesn't stop them from saying that we're all destined for Hell if we don't believe in Islam- hum!!

the_new_mr wrote: »

But, there are good and bad Jews, good and bad Christians and good and bad Muslims and the Quran talks about bad Jews when naming them apes and swine.

Their 'sin' being the oh so terrible deed of staying true to their own religion- they wouldn't convert to Islam so they are dismissed as being apes and swine- well, that pretty much trashes the whole freedom of religion idea, doesn't it?

the_new_mr wrote: »

The sad truth is that there isn't one country today performing Sharia correctly. Malaysia is probably one of the closest. Saudi Arabia have it right on some things but usually not with anything to do with women.

Doesn't it appear odd to you that, with the amount of countries practicing Sharia and for the length of time they have been practicing it, nobody seems to have 'gotten it right'? Perhaps they have got it right- maybe what we see isn't a disaster but in fact Sharia in action. What good are laws when they can't even be practiced properly by people who have no doubt memorised the Quran and studied it for decades?

the_new_mr wrote: »

I've mentioned this before on here and I know it hasn't necessarily been very popular but it's at least a possibility and that's that it could be their test from God. I believe that everyone gets tested in something in particular and a desire for someone of the same sex could be one of those tests that some people get.

I've often heard of people who are completely straight say that they have been tempted (or were in fact tempted) to engage in some same sex activities and described that it came out of some kind of curiosity or perversion. It's possible that homosexuality is a more intense form of these kind of feelings.

Holy crap... Well, where does one begin with something like this? All I can say is- a person is born with their sexuality. It is not a trick of the mind, a weakness or a 'test'- it is WHO THEY ARE. It is not "perversion", it is how they express their love and to be quite honest with you, if "God" created everyone, then why exactly would he have chosen to make them gay if it displeases him so much? Surely he wouldn't despise his own creation? Its a disgusting and completely discriminatory aspect of many religions and whatever one may say, this is NOT the word of God, but the theories of very ignorant people.

Bottle_of_Smoke

the_new_mr wrote: »

Yeah, I think those guys are about getting rights for fathers of children who aren't married to the mothers (as in children had out of wedlock).

I think it would cater for married men who've been seperated/divorced too.

Jannah not that many countries actually enforce Sharia law. AFAIK there's Saudi, Nigeria(think only applies to Muslims), Malaysia)only applies to Muslims), Indonesia?(not sure on that one), Pakistan(thoguh I think non-Muslims exempt) Afghanistan under Taliban.

There could be more. I don't think any of the North African countries enforce it. I know Jordan doesn't either.

As TNM pointed out in Malysia it works pretty well, look at the other countries & see they've all huge problems other than Sharia law

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, first of all, "no compulsion in religion" means you can't force someone to be a Muslim if they don't want to be.

Yet in the Quran they still referr to non-muslims as being...

It's important to make a distinction between the idea of no compulsion in religion and kuffar (or those who knowingly reject the truth when they see it). I think you'll find that basically every religion on earth would tend to view unbelievers in a somewhat negative light and I think you'll find that Islam looks at unbelievers in a better way than most (if not all) religions.

And I'd like to elaborate a little bit on the knowingly business. It's my own personal belief (and I hope not be held responsible in front of God for this belief as I'm nobody really) that since someone can only be punished for their true intentions, perhaps if someone is 100% sincere in following another faith then they'll be okay on the day of judgement. Especially seeing as there is so much bad rap for Islam these days that people cannot help but be influenced by it.

At the same time, maybe they didn't pursue any questions they had in their heart. They may have woke up one day and asked themselves "I wonder if I'm really in the right religion" and not pursued it any further out of convenience or laziness. Or because they don't want to pursue it any further because they're afraid that if they find Islam to be the truth, they won't be able to live the life they want to (drinking and the like). I've literally heard about people doing that.

Or perhaps I'm making too little of the idea of associating partners with God (the greatest sin in the eyes of God in the Quran). It could be that because it's the instinct of the soul to follow only One God then anyone who does otherwise is committing a crime against God which they should not regardless of their religion.

In the end, it's God Who will judge and it's best to leave it to Him.

Jannah wrote:

and (this is probably Islam at its most ridiculious)

You're free to your opinion of course but remember that you must keep within this forum's charter and show respect for all religions including Islam. As one of the moderators of this forum, I'm forced to issue a warning.

Jannah wrote:

Their 'sin' being the oh so terrible deed of staying true to their own religion- they wouldn't convert to Islam so they are dismissed as being apes and swine- well, that pretty much trashes the whole freedom of religion idea, doesn't it?

First of all, I think you'll find that you if read the verses in question, you'll find that the Jews described as being apes and swine are bad Jews and are actually contrasted with good Jews in the Quran. I would ask you to do some background reading before trashing Islam so readily and bringing it into disrepute. Ignorance is bad enough but trashing Islam in ignorance is worse.

Some of the verses in question (for those interested):
Al-'Araf:162-166
"But those among them who were bent on wrongdoing substituted another saying for that which they had been given: and so We let loose against them a plague from heaven in requital of all their evil doings.; And ask them about that town which stood by the sea: how its people would profane the Sabbath whenever their fish came to them, breaking the water's surface, on a day on which they ought to have kept Sabbath -because they would not come to them on other than Sabbath-days! Thus did We try them by means of their [own] iniquitous doings.; And whenever some people among them asked [those who tried to restrain the Sabbath-breakers], "Why do you preach to people whom God is about to destroy or [at least] to chastise with suffering severe?" -the pious ones would answer, "In order to be free from blame before your Sustainer, and that these [transgressors, too,] might become conscious of Him."; And thereupon, when those [sinners] had forgotten all that they had been told to take to heart, We saved those who had tried to prevent the doing of evil, and overwhelmed those who had been bent on evildoing with dreadful suffering for all their iniquity; and then, when they disdainfully persisted in doing what they had been forbidden to do, We said unto them: "Be as apes despicable!"

Second of all, just for the record, freedom of religion means being allowed to follow the faith you want to.

Jannah wrote:

Doesn't it appear odd to you that, with the amount of countries practicing Sharia and for the length of time they have been practicing it, nobody seems to have 'gotten it right'? Perhaps they have got it right- maybe what we see isn't a disaster but in fact Sharia in action. What good are laws when they can't even be practiced properly by people who have no doubt memorised the Quran and studied it for decades?

It was right for a good while. During the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and then, to a lesser extent, during other times in Islamic history. I remember someone once putting forward the idea that we're in a kind of Islamic dark age. I rejected that idea at first but the more I think of it, the more it seems to make sense. Knowledge has been lost. As I said, Malaysia have it down pretty well and Saudi Arabia have some parts of it okay.

Jannah wrote:

Holy crap... Well, where does one begin with something like this? All I can say is- a person is born with their sexuality. It is not a trick of the mind, a weakness or a 'test'- it is WHO THEY ARE. It is not "perversion", it is how they express their love

I said that idea isn't very popular

Honestly though, you don't know what it is exactly that makes someone a homosexual. I think it's safe to say that it's something neither you nor I can say we understand very well which is why I intend to research it a bit whenever I get the chance. I'm not saying that they are necessarily bad people, just that they're doing a bad thing.

Jannah wrote:

and to be quite honest with you, if "God" created everyone, then why exactly would he have chosen to make them gay if it displeases him so much?

As a test? It's only a theory. Also, it's not the being gay as it is the "doing" gay.

Anyway, as I say, it's something that I'd like to try and understand more if possible.

//Edit
I decided there's no time like the present after happening across this article when producing the link for the article above. It's step 1 to becoming more educated on the matter anyway but it seems very informative. No doubt, loads of people will call it biased due to its source but I think the writer has some interesting references.

An interesting read anyway.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

It's important to make a distinction between the idea of no compulsion in religion and kuffar (or those who knowingly reject the truth when they see it).

Ahhhh! Now I get it! I always wondered why exactly they said people were free to choose in one section and then totally slated them in the next! So if a person has never heard about Islam and dies, they are okay but if a person finds out about Islam and STILL rejects it, thats bad? I actually would agree with you on what you said about if one is sincere in their chosen faith, they will still be rewarded- that belief is a major part in Sikhism and one which I think everyone should adopt.

the_new_mr wrote: »

Or because they don't want to pursue it any further because they're afraid that if they find Islam to be the truth, they won't be able to live the life they want to (drinking and the like). I've literally heard about people doing that.

I really do think thats a huge part in it- I know myself, even if I am fully convinced by Islam, it would be really difficult to tell my parents (who have already told me their views on it, and needless to say they're very... very... non-PC... :S Thats all I'll say about that) particularly about hijab, theres something about hijab that drives my mom mad and although I think I might actually like to be a muslim if I can sort out some parts of it in my head (not to mind after reading up on it a lot more) I really worry what they would say- I'd even go as far to say as they would find it less traumatising if I said I wanted to get a tattoo on my face!! Its just that the messages being sent out in the media are so bad and older people tend to be slower to change their ways... ah well.

the_new_mr wrote: »

In the end, it's God Who will judge and it's best to leave it to Him.

I think thats the main point that showed me that the guy I talked to wasn't practicing Islam properly- by him saying that Benazir Bhutto and countless other people weren't 'good' muslims was pretty much just him assuming a role that was never his place to judge.

the_new_mr wrote: »

First of all, I think you'll find that you if read the verses in question, you'll find that the Jews described as being apes and swine are bad Jews and are actually contrasted with good Jews in the Quran.

Ahh! I was never told that some Jews were praised! Anyone I had asked about the Jew situation said that Jews, because they didn't accept Islam and kept their own faith, were apes and pigs because of that. In fact, there was a youtube video that pretty much showed a child saying how Jews were apes and pigs and gave off entirely the wrong impression. Apologies, I should have read the entire thing.

the_new_mr wrote: »

I remember someone once putting forward the idea that we're in a kind of Islamic dark age. I rejected that idea at first but the more I think of it, the more it seems to make sense. Knowledge has been lost.

I think that person might have been on to something. In Benazir Bhutto's book (lol, I know I keept talking about this flipping book, but its a really brilliant book!!) she talks about how the Quran was always meant to be interpreted in a way that suited the time period it was in and that is why some parts may seem slightly ambigious. Now that extremism has completely gone haywire, people are clinging to outdated interpretations and some are even completely misinterpreting parts for their own political agendas. In the end, it isn't a war between the West and Islam, its a war between modernity and fanaticism.

the_new_mr wrote: »

I think it's safe to say that it's something neither you nor I can say we understand very well
Also, it's not the being gay as it is the "doing" gay.

True, I don't think I'll ever know what 'makes' someone gay- although I was watching a programme with Dr Zakir Naik (who's brilliant btw!) and he was talking about homosexuality in Islam for a short while and how he explained it is that biologically it isn't put in someone's genes that they will be gay (which pretty much sorts out my idea on it!) and that God wouldn't punish someone for a fault that he biologically put in place and because it isn't in one's genes to be gay, it is the same as how it isn't put in our genes to steal or murder which is why it is seen as a sin... needless to say, he said it a lot more clearly! But thats the general gist of it!
Lol. "Doing gay"... you can say buggering if you want!

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

So if a person has never heard about Islam and dies, they are okay but if a person finds out about Islam and STILL rejects it, thats bad?

I guess you could say that if a person has never heard about Islam and dies then they'll be judged purely on their own deeds but if a person finds out about then they kind of have a responsibility on themselves to wonder about it along with the value of their deeds. As I say though, there's so much negative rap about Islam these days that by the time someone might know enough to have a serious think about it, they've already got all this crap in their head put there by the media.

I guess you could say that as long we are all going to be judged by God (who calls Himself The Most Just in the Quran) then we've nothing to worry about as long as we have been 100% honest with ourselves.

One thing which Islam is very clear about is that, unlike most other religions, simply being Muslim doesn't guarantee you entry into heaven. There's no carte blanche Good deeds should be performed and bad deeds avoided.

Jannah wrote:

I really do think thats a huge part in it- I know myself, even if I am fully convinced by Islam, it would be really difficult to tell my parents (who have already told me their views on it, and needless to say they're very... very... non-PC... :S Thats all I'll say about that) particularly about hijab, theres something about hijab that drives my mom mad and although I think I might actually like to be a muslim if I can sort out some parts of it in my head (not to mind after reading up on it a lot more) I really worry what they would say- I'd even go as far to say as they would find it less traumatising if I said I wanted to get a tattoo on my face!! Its just that the messages being sent out in the media are so bad and older people tend to be slower to change their ways... ah well.

Yeah, it's sad but that's the situation. Islam has such a bad reputation these days that people only tend to think negative things when they hear "Islam" or "Muslim". It's only people who are relatively close to a Muslim that can know different and even then, they might think that any good Muslims they know are some kind of exception

A close friend of mine who became Muslim from having been Catholic before (but before I met him) told me about how he was so afraid about what people would think and how his parents would react. He said that it actually turned out better than he thought. His parents apparently weren't that surprised because he had been talking about Islam and some Muslim friends of his so positively for so long that they were kind of expecting it to happen

Some people tend to get bad backlash but I think it's mainly down to ignorance and if they can see that the person who has become Muslim is genuinely happier with themselves then they usually become happy with it as well.

Jannah wrote:

I think thats the main point that showed me that the guy I talked to wasn't practicing Islam properly- by him saying that Benazir Bhutto and countless other people weren't 'good' muslims was pretty much just him assuming a role that was never his place to judge.

It's something everyone should be very careful about. You can say that "such-and-such" an action is not Islamic if you can bring solid proof from the Quran and/or authentic hadith and say that some people shouldn't do it but to go as far as saying that someone is "not a good Muslim" is a very very big thing to say. None of us are perfect after all.

Jannah wrote:

Anyone I had asked about the Jew situation said that Jews, because they didn't accept Islam and kept their own faith, were apes and pigs because of that.

I guess you could say that maybe the Jews that kept to their own faith out of stubbornness even though they knew that Islam was the right choice could be placed in that category but it always comes back to intentions. A lot of people don't know that Jews are praised in the Quran. Of course, there was a time when Jews (according to the Islamic belief) were following God's religion as He wanted it to be.

Jannah wrote:

Apologies, I should have read the entire thing.

Apology accepted.

What a lot of people don't know is that the "no compulsion in religion" verse was revealed to defend Jewish youth.

In the time of ignorance in Arabia before Islam was revealed, the idolaters who had lost a lot of sons as babies used to make a promise to God that if they had a son and he stayed alive, they would make them Jews (which makes you wonder what they thought of their own idolatry behaviour). Anyway, later on when Islam was revealed to the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him), these idolaters later became Muslims and then started to try and force their Jewish children to become Muslims themselves. This verse was revealed to prevent this kind of behaviour. What's the point of becoming Muslim anyway if you don't want to be yourself?

Jannah wrote:

I think that person might have been on to something. In Benazir Bhutto's book (lol, I know I keept talking about this flipping book, but its a really brilliant book!!) she talks about how the Quran was always meant to be interpreted in a way that suited the time period it was in and that is why some parts may seem slightly ambigious.

I'd tend to agree with that to a certain extent but I'm not sure to what extent she believed that. You have to be very careful with that sort of thing or you get into the "anything goes" zone.

I don't like labelling myself as one of those "modern Muslims". I believe that Islam should be understood as it should be. What that is requires education and, most importantly of all, a sincere heart. But I don't like the method that some people use to justify what they want to justify for their own sake and try to twist the verses of the Quran to suit them. Just like some terrorists do it to justify terrorism, you find some people trying to justify homosexuality or drinking by twisting verses.

I like Dr. Zakir Naik actually. I haven't heard that many of his lectures but I liked the ones I did hear. He knows his stuff that's for sure

I think that the article I linked to had some interesting points. I think that there is still the possibility that it could be in someone's genes that they might have a tendency to be gay but that doesn't mean that they have to be gay. A couple of homosexuals who are experts on the subject even said that being gay is a combination of things including possible biological traits and child-parent relationships along with life experiences. Something which I was quite shocked about was that according to one study conducted, something like 48% of gay people surveyed were sexually abused as a child. It's a big complicated topic but there's always the element of choice. I certainly don't believe that someone has to be gay anyway and I'm certainly not of the opinion that they're born that way.

Jannah wrote:

Lol. "Doing gay"... you can say buggering if you want!

I thought I'd try and be as PC as possible

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

As I say though, there's so much negative rap about Islam these days that by the time someone might know enough to have a serious think about it, they've already got all this crap in their head put there by the media.

Very true- one need only look to YouTube to see the complete slander thats out there. Its difficult to find sources that aren't somewhat biased these days! I think the way religion is taught in school has a lot to do with it too- my religion teacher only told us parts of Islam like "Muhammad was a pig farmer", women wear hijab after their first blood (who says that?!) and how they stone women, cut off limbs etc and it was treated like a complete joke. When I actually talked to her after class she really didn't know anything about the actual history behind it or the beliefs. The annoying thing is that there's a generation of pupils from my year now carrying a completely skewed version of Islam in there heads- one guy even remarked as he passed a girl wearing a hijab (the only one in our school of 600- which I think it pretty admirable) "At least we know she's got her first blood, huh?!"

the_new_mr wrote: »

A close friend of mine who became Muslim from having been Catholic before (but before I met him) told me about how he was so afraid about what people would think and how his parents would react. He said that it actually turned out better than he thought. His parents apparently weren't that surprised because he had been talking about Islam and some Muslim friends of his so positively for so long that they were kind of expecting it to happen

Whoah! Those are some seriously cool parents!! Although, I think its a little easier for male coverts as they don't have to change their physical appearance, but with women the hijab is a pretty huge deal. I've mentioned Islam in passing to my own mom and she went crazy and said that I was disrespecting my grandmother (no idea where the logic is there, she is dead but she was pretty into her religion I suppose) and a whole lot of other crazy things. I pointed out on her dashboard the virgin Mary wearing a headscarf and mentioned that in the Bible it says that if a woman doesn't cover her head she should shave off her hair, but she just dismissed it as being "old fashioned." But I saw the sadest report of a convert who's relatives actually spiked her drink just because she coverted to Islam and couldn't drink alcohol. Bad form.

the_new_mr wrote: »

I like Dr. Zakir Naik actually. I haven't heard that many of his lectures but I liked the ones I did hear. He knows his stuff that's for sure

Isn't it insanely cool?!!? I find it amazing that he can just rhyme off all the quotations like that, not just from the Quran but from other books too! But he's still very modest, I saw a lecture where a person started a question with "Since you're an expert on Islam, I was wondering-" and he corrected them by saying that he wasn't an expert but just a student of Islam- I thought that was pretty great

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

I think the way religion is taught in school has a lot to do with it too- my religion teacher only told us parts of Islam like "Muhammad was a pig farmer", women wear hijab after their first blood (who says that?!) and how they stone women, cut off limbs etc and it was treated like a complete joke

Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's difficult to find a school that does even a half-good job of teaching Islam. I'm not asking for an entire term's study of Islam. Just a lesson in summary would be fine.

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that the people who write the religion books are so afraid of the potential influence that Islam might have on the people that they purposefully misinform students and others and make it look like the weird religion from Arabia that they want it to. Much in the same way that Muslims used to be called Saracens or (even worse) Mohammedens trying to imply that Muslims worship Mohamed (God Be above that) in the past.

I was amazed at how many people really know nothing about Islam. About 8 years ago, I was told by a well educated Irish woman that she thought that we worshipped Mohamed (God be above that). I had to explain that we believe that Mohamed (peace be upon him) is a messenger of God along with Jesus, Moses and the rest (peace be upon them all) and she was surprised to hear all this and this was a woman in her forties who had received a third level education.

Even more recently, a friend of mine asked me the honest question of "What's the difference between a Muslim and an Islamic?" He honestly didn't know what you call a follower of Islam. Islamic seemed to make sense Someone else even said "You worship the sun, right?"

But you know who's really responsible for this rotten ignorance? Muslims. It's our fault. How can so many people be so ignorant of Islam when we are now all over the world. It's a disgrace really and I'm ashamed of it. The media certainly doesn't help but if we even did half of what we should then at least people would have an educated opinion.

Jannah wrote:

Whoah! Those are some seriously cool parents!! Although, I think its a little easier for male coverts as they don't have to change their physical appearance, but with women the hijab is a pretty huge deal.

Yeah, I hear they are pretty cool. I still haven't met them till now but friends who have tell me they're dead on. I understand that the mother still prays for him to return to Catholicism every day but I think he has his mind made up.

It's definitely harder for women though. Especially because people think that women are considered as second class citizens in Islam or something and that she's "hiding her femininity behind the veil" and all that. I can see how they might think that but I think it's just down to innocent ignorance really.

Jannah wrote:

I pointed out on her dashboard the virgin Mary wearing a headscarf and mentioned that in the Bible it says that if a woman doesn't cover her head she should shave off her hair, but she just dismissed it as being "old fashioned."

You're a brave one, aren't you? You make a good point actually and it's actually a point often brought up by many presenters of Islam. Hope you're not being too disrespectful to your mother though. They may get our nerves sometimes but it's important for people to respect their parents at all times whether you're Muslim or not.

The Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) when asked by a man "Who is the most deserving of my respect?" replied "Your mother". Then the man asked "And then?" to which the Prophet replied "Your mother" and then the man asked "And then who?" to which the Prophet replied "Your mother". Then the man asked again "And after that?" to which the Prophet replied "Your father".

Hope I don't sound like I'm preaching but it's just that I see many people disrespecting their parents these days. I'm not saying you do or anything. Just putting it out there

Jannah wrote:

But I saw the sadest report of a convert who's relatives actually spiked her drink just because she coverted to Islam and couldn't drink alcohol. Bad form.

Sick.

Jannah wrote:

Isn't it insanely cool?!!? I find it amazing that he can just rhyme off all the quotations like that, not just from the Quran but from other books too! But he's still very modest, I saw a lecture where a person started a question with "Since you're an expert on Islam, I was wondering-" and he corrected them by saying that he wasn't an expert but just a student of Islam- I thought that was pretty great

He's some man for one man May God increase his knowledge and grant him even more humility and a place high in paradise.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

Even more recently, a friend of mine asked me the honest question of "What's the difference between a Muslim and an Islamic?" He honestly didn't know what you call a follower of Islam. Islamic seemed to make sense Someone else even said "You worship the sun, right?"

Lol!!! That reminds me of a geography test I had a few weeks ago, we were writing about religions in India and we'd been given the headings Hindu, Muslim, and Buddhist and all I hear beside me is a girl hissing "What religion is Muslim?? Is that in our notes???" a LOT of people get confused by the whole Muslim/Islam thing!!

the_new_mr wrote: »

But you know who's really responsible for this rotten ignorance? Muslims. It's our fault. How can so many people be so ignorant of Islam when we are now all over the world. It's a disgrace really and I'm ashamed of it. The media certainly doesn't help but if we even did half of what we should then at least people would have an educated opinion.

Ah now, don't be harsh on yourself- Muslims are actually the most open people I've ever met to discussing their religion. A Muslim in my year gave me the names of sites and books and everything and he's always open to questions and discussions. In my opinion, most people who are not open to talking about their religion with others usually have some doubts about it themsevles.

the_new_mr wrote: »

I understand that the mother still prays for him to return to Catholicism every day but I think he has his mind made up.

Aw. Thats so sad. It reminds me exactly of something my mom would do. I really wouldn't say I'm disrespectful to my mom in the slightest, she's one of my best friends. As Muhammad himself said:
“Heaven liveth at the feet of mothers”

I'll never forget the day that I saw a fellow in my class disrespecting a muslim's mother- popped him one right in the balls!

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

Ah now, don't be harsh on yourself- Muslims are actually the most open people I've ever met to discussing their religion. A Muslim in my year gave me the names of sites and books and everything and he's always open to questions and discussions.

Yeah but it needs to be more organised. Having the odd Muslim here and there ready to give the name of sites and books is all well and good but the fact that so many people just don't have a clue reflects very badly on the Muslim community.

Jannah wrote:

I really wouldn't say I'm disrespectful to my mom in the slightest, she's one of my best friends. As Muhammad himself said:
“Heaven liveth at the feet of mothers”

Glad to hear it. Just for the record, it's heaven lies at the feet of mothers.

Jannah wrote:

I'll never forget the day that I saw a fellow in my class disrespecting a muslim's mother- popped him one right in the balls!

Glad to hear that you're standing up for people and defending them... although I'm not sure about your techniques :eek:

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

Yeah but it needs to be more organised. Having the odd Muslim here and there ready to give the name of sites and books is all well and good but the fact that so many people just don't have a clue reflects very badly on the Muslim community.

Glad to hear it. Just for the record, it's heaven lies at the feet of mothers.

Glad to hear that you're standing up for people and defending them... although I'm not sure about your techniques :eek:

LOL- nonono, it was the guy whose mother they were talking about who popped him one in the balls!! Haha!! I wish!!! I don't think I'd have the nerve, somehow!!

Oops, blame google and its messed up traslations lol!!

I never realised how badly Islam was being portrayed until I actually started talking to my family about it. We'd been listening to the hijab debate on the radio (don't know if anyone else heard it, but it was pretty horrific the things people were coming out with) and the arguments against people wearing it... they were unbelievable! From people thinking it is a threat to Ireland's traditions to worrying about 'equality' in schools (and really, I would personally prefer to see a load of hijabis in place of teenage girls wearing belts for skirts) its crazy. People really do need to get over their own insecurities before they make their opinions as widespread as those. My mom went on for ages afterwards, really pissed off about "Those girls wearing korans on their heads" ...!!! (gotta love parents, but its madness!)

Btw, the girl I mentioned who converted and whose drink was spiked actually has a pretty good video on youtube if anyone's interested: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tJ5JE4nfvXY&feature=related

Sadly there's also videos of pretty mad people who coverted too (wait till you get to the part where she talks about fornication... yep....)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uguiV5zyUxs

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

LOL- nonono, it was the guy whose mother they were talking about who popped him one in the balls!! Haha!! I wish!!! I don't think I'd have the nerve, somehow!!

Still not sure if I support the violent reaction. Kids I suppose

Jannah wrote:

I never realised how badly Islam was being portrayed until I actually started talking to my family about it. We'd been listening to the hijab debate on the radio (don't know if anyone else heard it, but it was pretty horrific the things people were coming out with) and the arguments against people wearing it... they were unbelievable! From people thinking it is a threat to Ireland's traditions to worrying about 'equality' in schools (and really, I would personally prefer to see a load of hijabis in place of teenage girls wearing belts for skirts) its crazy. People really do need to get over their own insecurities before they make their opinions as widespread as those. My mom went on for ages afterwards, really pissed off about "Those girls wearing korans on their heads" ...!!! (gotta love parents, but its madness!)

You hit the nail band on the head there. I think you're right and it's all about insecurities. I think people are somehow worried that they and the country will lose their identity or something. Why should wearing mini-skirts, getting rotten drunk or anything like that be part of Irish identity? Something which I always find interesting is that people are often critical of the lifestyle and not the actual beliefs. Almost as if it's not really the beliefs that they have a problem with.

Jannah wrote:

Btw, the girl I mentioned who converted and whose drink was spiked actually has a pretty good video on youtube if anyone's interested: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tJ5JE4nfvXY&feature=related

That is sad but it's good to see that her parents have now had their minds open.

Jannah wrote:

Sadly there's also videos of pretty mad people who coverted too (wait till you get to the part where she talks about fornication... yep....)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uguiV5zyUxs

I know Amina! Not personally or anything but I saw that video before about 3 or 4 years ago. I don't think she's mad at all. I actually have a lot of respect for her. She's such a strong character too. May God bless her and her family. I wonder where she is now...

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

Why should wearing mini-skirts, getting rotten drunk or anything like that be part of Irish identity?

YES! Its something I've always tried to distance myself from but whenever I'm abroad its always look "Ooohhhh you're Irish?? Wanna go for a drink, hoho!!" Argh!! But then again, every nationality has their stereotype- Americans are seen as dumb, the British are seen as snobs, the French are seen as rude, the Germans are seen as Neo-Nazis... its very hard to change a stereotype when its been put firmly in place by so many people... especially in a few annoying people prove them right... for example, that Irish dude who arrived on holidays early one morning and had got completely off his face drunk and was dead in the hotel swimming pool THAT SAME NIGHT... ARGH!!! What will they think of the Irish then?!

the_new_mr wrote: »

Something which I always find interesting is that people are often critical of the lifestyle and not the actual beliefs. Almost as if it's not really the beliefs that they have a problem with.

Completely- or even worse, they aren't able to distinguish one from the other!

the_new_mr wrote: »

I know Amina! Not personally or anything but I saw that video before about 3 or 4 years ago. I don't think she's mad at all. I actually have a lot of respect for her. She's such a strong character too. May God bless her and her family. I wonder where she is now...

At the start she seemed like a lovely jolly person, but towards the end she got very... intense!! I suppose she's in Yemen now- wow, long way from home! Those niqabs are so damn cool- the thought of not having to bother doing hair and make up every morning- ahhhh!!

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

Completely- or even worse, they aren't able to distinguish one from the other!

Yes, good point. I think that is sometimes the case.

Jannah wrote:

At the start she seemed like a lovely jolly person, but towards the end she got very... intense!! I suppose she's in Yemen now- wow, long way from home!

I'd be interested in knowing what it was exactly that made her seem intense to you. Just the talk about fornication and that? What is that you object to? I'm just curious.

Black Swan

A sample of one? While it might be interesting to chat with someone of a particular faith, the fact of the matter is they are not statistically representative of all members of that faith. The evidence is anecdotal, statistically insignificant, and non-generalisable to others. And what if by chance you spoke with a member of the faith that fell way outside the norm? How distorted a picture you might get?

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

I'd be interested in knowing what it was exactly that made her seem intense to you. Just the talk about fornication and that? What is that you object to? I'm just curious.

It was mainly because of how pissed off she seemed at the idea of it, when, in fairness, other people fornicating isn't her business to begin with. She should realise that her videos are reaching a wide audience. And yes, she does have the freedom of speech, but I do find it a little insulting that she says how since she's married a muslim man she doesn't have to worry about him coming in completely hammered from the pub unlike with an English man (or something to that effect) which is pretty offensive to the English men AND their wives. Also the part where she accosted the camera man and asked him if he would be attracting to a woman wearing the niqab... poor fellow seemed absolutely petrified!!

Conar

Jannah wrote: »

Also the part where she accosted the camera man and asked him if he would be attracting to a woman wearing the niqab... poor fellow seemed absolutely petrified!!

I find this so strange.
Is sexual attraction the only form of 3rd party admiration that is frowned upon in the Muslim world or does it stretch to other areas?
For example, is it ok to leer over a neighbour's nice car?
I know they probably follow the "Though shalt not covet thy neighbour's...." rules but what is it about sexual attraction that is so much worse than coveting other things?
Surely if God found the sexual attraction area so bad he would have highlighted it more when he gave the 10 commandments? No?

From Wiki the commandments state:
"You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

I could very well be wrong here as I am not exactly too well versed in the ways of your Lord but surely he would have been more specific in his teachings when he made the commandments if it meant so much to him.
He even mentions the neighbours house before the neighbours wife so it can't have been too high on his agenda.
I know your prophet came after the commandments and made all these extra revelations but surely as God is omniscient he wouldn't need to make future revisions though the mouth of others?

I'm interested in hearing responses to this but if you feel I'm taking the piss or a new thread should/could be started then so be it.

Jannah

Conar wrote: »

I find this so strange.
Is sexual attraction the only form of 3rd party admiration that is frowned upon in the Muslim world or does it stretch to other areas?
For example, is it ok to leer over a neighbour's nice car?
I know they probably follow the "Though shalt not covet thy neighbour's...." rules but what is it about sexual attraction that is so much worse than coveting other things?
Surely if God found the sexual attraction area so bad he would have highlighted it more when he gave the 10 commandments? No?

From Wiki the commandments state:
"You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

I could very well be wrong here as I am not exactly too well versed in the ways of your Lord but surely he would have been more specific in his teachings when he made the commandments if it meant so much to him.
He even mentions the neighbours house before the neighbours wife so it can't have been too high on his agenda.
I know your prophet came after the commandments and made all these extra revelations but surely as God is omniscient he wouldn't need to make future revisions though the mouth of others?

I'm interested in hearing responses to this but if you feel I'm taking the piss or a new thread should/could be started then so be it.

I'd say its pretty frowned upon to leer at a neighbour's car (the modern donkey, if you will!:D) although there's a difference between being envious and thinking "wow, thats a pretty sweet ride, I'd love one myself" and being jealous and thinking "That goddammed SOB thinks he's the shiz, well I'm gonna key his car, bust his tyres AND sleep with his wife!!"
... buuuut thats just my ponderings on it!:p

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

And yes, she does have the freedom of speech, but I do find it a little insulting that she says how since she's married a muslim man she doesn't have to worry about him coming in completely hammered from the pub unlike with an English man (or something to that effect) which is pretty offensive to the English men AND their wives.

I see your point there.

Jannah wrote:

It was mainly because of how pissed off she seemed at the idea of it, when, in fairness, other people fornicating isn't her business to begin with.

It's none of her business but that doesn't mean she can't be pissed off or disgusted by it. I'm fairly pissed off and disgusted by it myself actually. I don't see how there's anything wrong with that. It's an opinion after all.

Conar wrote:

I'm interested in hearing responses to this but if you feel I'm taking the piss or a new thread should/could be started then so be it.

You have some interesting questions but they definitely warrant a new thread. To answer your question quickly, Muslims believe that each religion was sent to a specific set of people for a specific time with the final revelation of the Quran through the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) as for all people for all time. A kind of "final version" if you will Also, although I don't want to give you the circular argument thing, Muslims believe that there are some things that God does that we can't always understand. That doesn't answer your question obviously but I guess it can help to see what other people believe.