Conversation with a muslim

the_new_mr

Yes and the moral of the story is that people are the problem, not religion. That is quite obvious now I think. People will (sadly) always find an excuse to do crazy things if they need one.

Agathon

Hello Jannah,
This is my first time on boards, or any other forum for that matter. I was searching the internet and came upon your 'conversation with a Muslim'. You seem like a nice person and I joined this forum just to clear your confusions about Islam. I know it seems like a long time, and this is a long comment but I hope your patient with me (if you are really seeking the truth in these questions).
The first thing is that sunni, shia, or any other sect, as long you believe in the Oneness of Allah and the final Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) you are Muslim. minor issues like prayer actions, beard size, etc. are all trivial, as long as you are following the five pillars of Islam with good intention.
Secondly, true democracy (the people choosing a righteous, trustworthy and just ruler to lead the country) is actually Islamic and was practiced by the early predecessors of Islam (if you read about the growth of the Islamic Empire) as oppose to so-called 'puppet' democracy practiced all over the world nowadays (deceiving the masses)! Thirdly, Shari'a Law is actually a perfect law set out by the Creator (knows the creation more than they even know themselves) even though they seem harsh and cruel to us. If you look around you, everything is following a law and system set by the Creator (i.e., the solar system, the force of gravity, electric force, etc.) and even human beings themselves, as they got more civilized & wiser, have set rules and regulations to live by for themselves. For example, a King in the land or a parliament. Why do we set laws and why the need for order? - this should answer your question about the need to follow a Law. About the harsh punishments: We humans are sometimes barbaric, sometimes harsh, sometimes ignorant, and the only law that we will understand is harshness (to keep us in check). Think of the society as a human body; if one part is corrupt (disease) it will spread to the other parts if not cut off. Now, if you think death for adultery is a bit too harsh, then don't do it! It's as simple as that... you say you're free (no you're not) - that's someone elses sister, mother, wife or daughter you penetrating. That's a family you're destroying or a killing spree (of continuous vengeance) you're about to start. If you want to have sex with somebody go about it the right way. Talk to the girl, talk to her father, marry her and be committed to a good purposeful relationship. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out, but don't go looking for a shag and saying it's not fair if you're caught. It's a punishment to protect the individual, family, and society. secondly, if you're an intelligent, sane person you wouldn't murder somebody, steal someones belongings (or business stock), have sex with somebody's daughter, sister, wife or mother, etc. etc. IF you knew what the punishment for these offences was. It's like having sex with somebody who has AIDS without a condom (you know you will catch the virus & die if you did it). BUT these Laws are also beneficial for the human being just as you would say human laws are beneficial for us, i.e if you speed or don't have your seatbelt on you'll get fined, but this is for your own good. If you gamble, do drugs (including alcohol), sleep with someone's daughter, YOU destroy families and your self-image, in turn, it could lead to many deaths, broken families, heavy depression, greed & corruption.. If you believe in a Creator (a God) - Allah, you just try your best to understand His Law and try your best to follow them.
fourthly, the killing of innocents intentionally is HARAM in Islam, no matter what the ignorant say, and we follow our final Prophet in this matter, not a so-called vengeful sheikh. fifthly, polygamy in Islam was a solution for the situation of the Muslims after their battles (when many women/children were left orphaned) and when there was a surplus of women looking for protection for themselves and their children. It is only a condition in the Qur'an IF ONE IS JUST and his first wife agrees with it for Allah's sake. The Qur'an is the only religious book that explicitly says: 'Marry One'. Other beliefs used to marry tens and hundred (the limit was four and still many can't even be fair with one!!!)
Sixthly, there are some ahadith that say 'Aisha was 16 or 18 or thereabouts. There some ahadith that say she was young (9, 10, or 11) but that is not relevant now. The main reason the Prophet married her was so he could enter Abu Bakr's house to discuss religious matters, to teach her from a young age (and she was the best observer of what the prophet did at home, etc.) a command from Allah to the prophet (pbuh). Why do humans only think of sex. Obviously the Prophet didn't have sex with her until she reached a comfortable age (20, etc.) These are only propaganda from the jealous materialists (because Islam is outgrown every belief system including secularism)!
The person you were arguing with is an ignorant idiot. He should've at least put his hands up and said I don't know for some of the questions instead of trying to explain everything like an arrogant Arab. I hope this has cleared your confusions, and if you have anymore questions try to ask knowledgeable people (because the prophet,pbuh, said Islam is logical and can answer anything) - a gift from Allah to mankind since it's the final revelation. May Allah guide you to the real Islam. Salam....

ChocolateSauce

It is impossible to defend Christianity and Judaism too. Not saying your wrong, just don't forget that they are all in the same Abrahamic boat. It's only easier to pick on Islam because it is not native to our land.

I came to your realisation when I was looking at the stalls of the Islamic society in UCD two years ago this week. They were trying to show how liberal they were, and how Islam is mis-represented and that it is a religion of love, but they blamed AIDs on homosexuals, said (honestly and truthfully) that the Koran was against homosexuals, that alcohol was tied to satan, and that women must be veiled. I had no love or respect for Islam before that, but until then I still had the question unanswered in my mind "but what about the moderate ones? Maybe I haven't seen everything". Well ladies and gentlemen, these were the moderate ones, and I was disgusted.

Please note, I am not against Muslims, only Islam.

PoleStar

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

It is impossible to defend Christianity and Judaism too. Not saying your wrong, just don't forget that they are all in the same Abrahamic boat. It's only easier to pick on Islam because it is not native to our land.

I came to your realisation when I was looking at the stalls of the Islamic society in UCD two years ago this week. They were trying to show how liberal they were, and how Islam is mis-represented and that it is a religion of love, but they blamed AIDs on homosexuals, said (honestly and truthfully) that the Koran was against homosexuals, that alcohol was tied to satan, and that women must be veiled. I had no love or respect for Islam before that, but until then I still had the question unanswered in my mind "but what about the moderate ones? Maybe I haven't seen everything". Well ladies and gentlemen, these were the moderate ones, and I was disgusted.

Please note, I am not against Muslims, only Islam.

Here here, I aggree.

It often mentioned in discussion like this about the "muppet" who spoke to the OP in this thread or about extremists etc that they do not represent Islam.

I cannot reconcile this. Those people who are said to be moderates are those who choose to ignore part of their respective religious texts that seem to be incompatible with society as they see it eg. stonings etc.

Those that stick to the original texts and say stonings=good etc are not fundamentally flawed in their thought processes based on their religion. All they are doing is actually accepting their religion as is and not molding it for themselves.

A big problem to me is that moderates shrug them off as crazy where in fact it is the religion that is the problem, all that differs is how seriously they actually take it. The extremists dont actually say lies about their religion and make it up when they say things like "put all the Jews to the sword", it says it in the Qu'aran and they are just following it.

And I am not picking on Islam.

The same can be said of Christianity: those nutters in the US who praise the lord when a hooker is killed or gays die.

After all it says it in the great book of "compassion" the bible, that Jesebel and her children will be put to death. As Tommy Tiernan put it nicely referring to the stoning of the prostitute in the bible "there you are you dirty jesebel, who are you to be sleeping with all of us"

Executive Steve

Jannah wrote: »

Stonings, whippings, hatred of Jews- its all in the Qur'an.

...and the Bible, of course.

ironingbored

Agathon wrote: »

The first thing is that sunni, shia, or any other sect, as long you believe in the Oneness of Allah and the final Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) you are Muslim. minor issues like prayer actions, beard size, etc. are all trivial, as long as you are following the five pillars of Islam with good intention.

Tell this to the Taliban

Agathon wrote: »

Secondly, true democracy (the people choosing a righteous, trustworthy and just ruler to lead the country) is actually Islamic and was practiced by the early predecessors of Islam (if you read about the growth of the Islamic Empire) as oppose to so-called 'puppet' democracy practiced all over the world nowadays (deceiving the masses)!

mmmm.....a democratic Islamic empire. That's an oxymoron my friend.

Agathon wrote: »

Thirdly, Shari'a Law is actually a perfect law set out by the Creator (knows the creation more than they even know themselves) even though they seem harsh and cruel to us.

Sharia is a barbaric and misogynistic system. How you can know what the creator's intentions are is beyond me. You're saying the creator knows creation more than he knows himself. Please explain further this pearl of wisdom. Countries that practice Sharia law are the most backward and intellectually challenged imaginable. Hardly a glowing indictment of this supposedly divine-inspired system.

Agathon wrote: »

About the harsh punishments: We humans are sometimes barbaric, sometimes harsh, sometimes ignorant, and the only law that we will understand is harshness (to keep us in check).

Especially those countries in which sharia law is practiced.

Agathon wrote: »

fourthly, the killing of innocents intentionally is HARAM in Islam, no matter what the ignorant say, and we follow our final Prophet in this matter, not a so-called vengeful sheikh.

Yeah, the prophet never killed innocents.

Agathon wrote: »

Sixthly, there are some ahadith that say 'Aisha was 16 or 18 or thereabouts.

No excuse. He married a six-year old and consummated the marriage at 9. there's no other word.

Agathon wrote: »

Why do humans only think of sex.

Because with animal species, the sexual urge is fundamental in passing on one's genes.

Agathon wrote: »

(because the prophet,pbuh, said Islam is logical and can answer anything)

Blind faith in fairy tales and flying horses is anathema to logic. If Islam is one thing it ain't logical.

Bottle_of_Smoke

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

They were trying to show how liberal they were, and how Islam is mis-represented and that it is a religion of love, but they blamed AIDs on homosexuals,

THey would be partially to blame in fairness, assuming he meant the spread of it. Go into any STD clinic and they'll tell you the most at risk are men who have sex with men. Though I acknowledge it's silly propaganda & doesn't make homosexuality wrong

said (honestly and truthfully) that the Koran was against homosexuals

Well . . .it is, what did you expect them to do, lie to you and say otherwise? This is a fairly consistant theme amongst the religious. Go to any other religious stand at that fair(other than pagansoc if that's still going) and they'll tell you their book is against homosexuals.

that alcohol was tied to satan,

Not really a big deal, surely every sin is tied to satan and Muslims see alchohol consumption as a sin.

and that women must be veiled.

This is a big part of being a Muslim. Did you enquire if they meant Burkha style or just a scarf covering their hair? If they meant the latter I don't see your problem.

I had no love or respect for Islam before that, but until then I still had the question unanswered in my mind "but what about the moderate ones? Maybe I haven't seen everything". Well ladies and gentlemen, these were the moderate ones, and I was disgusted.

I don't know what you mean by moderate in this context. One of my friend's is a Muslim. He doesn't eat pork, fasts & abstains from alchohol during ramadan but otherwise he drinks & smokes pot but I wouldn't call him a moderate Muslim, more an unobservant one!

Please note, I am not against Muslims, only Islam.

Don't really get this

getz

mohamed says all dogs are devils and urged muslims to kill them -if a muslim get a dog hair on him or her they must change there clothes-a muslim must not pray if a dog or a jew is present because god will not answer the prayers-

Agathon

To Ironingbored: What exactly do you believe, if you don't mind me asking?? Do you believe in God? How did Muhammed (pbuh) come up with the Qur'an and transformed billions of people into a purely monotheistic ideology, elegantly?

You're saying the creator knows creation more than he knows himself

Read the sentence again (PROPERLY)!! Obviously the one who creates something knows more about it than the creation knows about itself ... anyway, the wisdom is from the Noble Qur'an. Do you think the Qur'an was made up by Muhammed (pbuh)???

Agathon

getz wrote: »

mohamed says all dogs are devils and urged muslims to kill them -if a muslim get a dog hair on him or her they must change there clothes-a muslim must not pray if a dog or a jew is present because god will not answer the prayers-

Where exactly does he say that? Where did you get this rubbish from???
If you harm ANY animal you will be punished. There are clear hadiths if you want me to show you them. You are just not allowed to eat or drink from utensils that dogs ate or drank from (that's all; maybe for obvious reasons) you can pet them, touch them, even kiss them if you really feel like doing that.
Are there any Muslims on this forum?!???

getz

statements from the HADITH

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KILL the dogs---loss of reward of good works for owning dogs

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dog annulling prayer----dogs stop angels

Hobbes

getz wrote: »

statements from the HADITH

---

KILL the dogs---loss of reward of good works for owning dogs

---

dog annulling prayer----dogs stop angels

Which ones?

getz

bukhari-- v1 book4 number 173

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bukhari-- v4 book54 number 540----bukhari-- v4 book 54 number 540

Agathon

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 173:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a dog drinks from the utensil of anyone of you it is essential to wash it seven times."

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 174:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A man saw a dog eating mud from (the severity of) thirst. So, that man took a shoe (and filled it) with water and kept on pouring the water for the dog till it quenched its thirst. So Allah approved of his deed and made him to enter Paradise." And narrated Hamza bin 'Abdullah: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go), nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog.)"

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 175:

Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim:

I asked the Prophet (about the hunting dogs) and he replied, "If you let loose (with Allah's name) your tamed dog after a game and it hunts it, you may eat it, but if the dog eats of (that game) then do not eat it because the dog has hunted it for itself." I further said, "Sometimes I send my dog for hunting and find another dog with it. He said, "Do not eat the game for you have mentioned Allah's name only on sending your dog and not the other dog."

***
All I can see is kindness for dogs in these hadiths (The Creator showing you mercy for you having mercy on a dog and doing something as simple as quenching its thirst); letting your dog eat before you when you use it to hunt; etc. In fact nothing you mentioned was in these hadiths!!!

Please stop giving Islam a bad image (the intelligent media are doing enough damage!). Next time write the actual hadith down plus source (ref)!!

Agathon

Even when there is a mention of something that you don't fully understand, hadith is a deep science. You must ask scholars on this issue before writing your own fatwas and propaganda for people to read (& hate Islam for):
***
The order was to kill biting rabid and voracious dogs (Saheeh Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 29, Number 54; Volume 3, Book 29, Number 55; Volume 4, Book 54, Number 531; Saheeh Muslim: Book 007, Number 2717, Book 007; Number 2718; Book 007, Number 2719; Abu Dawud: Book 10, Number 1844) The killing of the rabid dogs also applied to other creatures and animals that were dangerous as well. e.g. wolves (Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=1698&doc=0)

You have hadith saying to kill all dogs except the ones used for hunting or guarding sheep. (Saheeh Muslim: Book 010, Number 3812; Book 010, Number 3814)

There are hadiths that show dogs not being killed:
They used to see dogs urinating on the floor of the mosque and they just sprinkled water on the spot, they didn't go and kill the dog. (Saheeh Bukhari: Volume 001, Book 004, Hadith Number 174)
***
Anyway, the main point I want to make is, people should at least try to find genuine answers for questions instead of insulting the Prophet (p), Allah or the Qur'an (Islam basically). Or else argue their point with proper sources (genuinly).

getz

just stop bypassing the passage--abdullah bin uma-allahhs apostle --ordered that dogs should be killed

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next bukhariv4 book 54 num 542--quote if somebody keeps a dog that is neither used for farm work nor guarding livestock he will lose one qirat[of the reward of his good deeds everyday]--bukhari v4 book 4 num 450--quote- angel gabriel [we angels do not enter a house which contains a picture or a dog]---dont start the old i am insulting allah bit , and please remember islam is still a very young religion what is happening in islam at this moment happened in christianity in the west 400 years ago--thank god/allah that i live in a more open society-to me if anyone said things negitive about christ i would just feel sorry for them. i could not care less

Hobbes

getz wrote: »

just stop bypassing the passage

Considering your other quotes were incorrect and look like they were pulled off the first page you googled, I too would like more details on the one that was overlooked.

Agathon

It seems like some just like arguing for the sake of arguments. Are the hadiths I've mentioned not enough to defend Allah & the prophet (p) for encouraging mercy toward the dog.

Some people will never be convinced no matter how much evidence you give them that their statements are wrong (taken out of context and written down for people to read and hate Islam's teachings!) or put doubt in people's hearts. Why you brought these issues up, i dunno, but ask genuinly: why did the prophet order killing of dogs and you'll get your answer (even in google):
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/killing_of_dogs.htm

getz

we can go on forever with islamic quotes--because the bible and the koran are full of contradictions - the proof of the pudding is in the eating--i have lived in a high islamic area of the uk and i can assure you a muslim will wash all his/her clothes if he/she gets a dog hair on them- when i walked my dog islamic people will cross the road before they will pass by me --some muslim taxis will not except a blind person with a dog -- not all are that strict all my muslim friends love my dog some even have dogs of there own--because they are born in the uk they are not as conventional -and like every other english kid religion is left to there parents

Agathon

where exactly are the contradictions in the Qur'an?? Anybody who claims there are contradictions in the Qur'an is not a Muslim. Allah states: "Do they not then meditate on the Qur'an? For if it had been from other the Allah they would have found many contradictions in it" Surat an-Nisaa, ayah 82.

You seem like a nice guy but you can't claim to call yourself one of the billion Muslims in the world with that belief of yours. Many people don't focus on small issues (like the dog issue that we have wasted our time talking about, etc.) but to say that the Qur'an has contradictions is a total confusion of your beliefs my friend!! Islam is not only by name like Christianity, Judaism or paganism- eeman has to enter your heart after you have been fully convinced of your beliefs. Why do you believe exactly??

andrewh5

blackthorn wrote: »

Wow Jannah, that is quite something. I'm sorry if you are turning away from Islam. I do hope you will come back.

Not if he/she has any sense.

getz

you keep on saying allah states--no allah dosent state - both the bible and the koran are man wrote not god wrote -words have been put in the holy books by man --as what allah/god has supposed to have said --in the case of the new testament 200 AD some of the books have been put in by the church

blackthorn

andrewh5 wrote: »

Not if he/she has any sense.

Who asked you?

Agathon

getz wrote: »

you keep on saying allah states--no allah dosent state - both the bible and the koran are man wrote not god wrote -words have been put in the holy books by man --as what allah/god has supposed to have said --in the case of the new testament 200 AD some of the books have been put in by the church

How was the Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)? Yes the Qur'an was written by man but it was revealed from ALLAH through Angel Jibreel to the Prophet (p). It claims that it is protected by ALLAH from corruption and tampering as oppose to the other revealed Books (i.e. Bible, Torah, etc.) but it is ALLAH's statements. Did you know this fundamental belief of Islam???
Show me the contradictions which you say are in it (even though nobody has actually challenged it for the past 1400 years)?

getz

they dare not -because islam has a way on disposing of anyone who asks questions--

Hobbes

Hi,

Welcome to the new people I trust everyone has READ THE CHARTER. If not please do so now. I have already banned two people for a week and I don't like having to do it.

irishconvert

getz wrote: »

mohamed says all dogs are devils and urged muslims to kill them -if a muslim get a dog hair on him or her they must change there clothes-a muslim must not pray if a dog or a jew is present because god will not answer the prayers-

Can you please tell me where it says I cannot pray if a Jew is present as I find that very difficult to believe.

irishconvert

getz wrote: »

bukhari-- v1 book4 number 173

---

bukhari-- v4 book54 number 540----bukhari-- v4 book 54 number 540

What about this one...

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 538:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."

getz

IKIMAH-reported on the authority of IBN ABBAS--saying i think the apostle ALLAH said-when one prays without a sutrah. a dog an ass a pig a jew a magian and a woman cut of his prayer but it will surffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stones throw

irishconvert

getz wrote: »

IKIMAH-reported on the authority of IBN ABBAS--saying i think the apostle ALLAH said-when one prays without a sutrah. a dog an ass a pig a jew a magian and a woman cut of his prayer but it will surffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stones throw

You originally said "a muslim must not pray if a dog or a jew is present because god will not answer the prayers". This is not what this hadith says. Can you please give me a link to a hadith that backs up your original statement? Do you even understand this hadith you have quoted?