Male Privilege Checklist

Whispered

Boston wrote: »

Hello, I'm an Irish male aged between 15 and 25, I'm five times more likely to kill myself then my female counterpart despite apparently having an easier life.

Haven't read past this yet so this might have already been comented on, but a male is more likely to take his own life because he is less likely to seek help with emotional issues.

Some of the things in that list is true, but I would imagine for nearly every one there is a counterpoint. One of the things I find is, working for a builder providers, orders I place or instructions I give generally take a lot longer to come through than if one of the men had spoken to the supplier. People also seem to think it's ok to be incredibly rude to the women in my office and speak to them in a way they would never DREAM of speaking to the men in.

It's great being a woman though in my opinion. Although, this attitude seems to be almost "old fashioned" now!:eek:

Mikel

helena.ryan wrote: »

Haven't read past this yet so this might have already been comented on, but a male is more likely to take his own life because he is less likely to seek help with emotional issues.

Maybe, maybe not. But if so, how do you know?
There could be a multitude of reasons

Walls

A lot of men would insist that the items on this list could never happen. But a lot of women reading this list would insist that it would. Sorry, but I've seen a lot of these things happen, and so have others.

hunnymonster

Recently I was shocked on the work and jobs forum to see a recruitment consultant say that whenever they got cvs from
1. a woman
2. someone with a non-Irish sounding name
they immediately binned them with absolutely no consideration. I knew that if both a man and I were equally qualified and there was nothing to distinguish us in an interview, he would get the job (mad as that make me) but to find out that the recruitment consultant wouldn't even read past the first line was a new one on me.

Boston

helena.ryan wrote: »

Haven't read past this yet so this might have already been comented on, but a male is more likely to take his own life because he is less likely to seek help with emotional issues.

Well yes, and much of that is down to living up to the stereotype presented by wall here. A man shouldn't have any problem, after all a man lives a privileged life.

Doctor DooM

Walls wrote: »

A lot of men would insist that the items on this list could never happen. But a lot of women reading this list would insist that it would. Sorry, but I've seen a lot of these things happen, and so have others.

And when they do happen, they should be highlighted and fought: But don't say they are endemic to the female condition. Women in this era deserve better than that self pity.

Walls

The list isn't actually for women, it's for men. It is to show that men do indeed benefit from the system. Most women seem, for the most part, to get on with it, and accept it as a fact of life. Myself, I'll happily go on about it, for whatever good it does.

Walls

Why Ghandi's nappy, can I ask?

Doctor DooM

Walls wrote: »

The list isn't actually for women, it's for men. It is to show that men do indeed benefit from the system. Most women seem, for the most part, to get on with it, and accept it as a fact of life. Myself, I'll happily go on about it, for whatever good it does.

Accepting it doesn't solve it: going on about it doesn't solve it: Perhaps if the men(and women!)in charge were made aware, and when necessary challenged, of these things they wouldn't occur?

For the record, I have done many, many job interviews and employed many many people, and sex NEVER came into it. Ever. I have had male and female bosses and got on equally well with both. So I can certainly say that while these things do happen, they certainly don't happen all the time.

I have however actually been subject to several "you're only a man" comments on a shop floor. It goes both ways.

It's often been said to me that true feminism is assuming equality, not claiming superiority or shouting about equality. Lists like this just make people roll their eyes.

Walls wrote: »

Why Ghandi's nappy, can I ask?

Why not?



It comes from a thread where a trollish OP was making out people were ashamed on boards of left wing leanings. I did a test which put me slightly left of Ghandi, so I said the above. One other poster said I should make it my sig, et voila!

Walls

I know you think lists like this make others roll their eyes, but from my perspective some folks have had no exposure to this kind of discussion at all. That to me is not good enough, and by posting this list I'm trying to change that. Lots of people insist they firstly don't see anything on this list that applies to them, or if they do, that they suffer as well ya know. I'm arguing that at least some of that list applies to them whether they like it or not, and if they do suffer, then they shouldn't slag folks who are trying to do their bit, as they see it.

And I think Ghandi would be proud to have you wear it!

WindSock

Boston wrote: »

How do you know its more difficult if you've never lived life on the flip side?

Hello, I'm an Irish male aged between 15 and 25, I'm five times more likely to kill myself then my female counterpart despite apparently having an easier life.

There are problems which are exclusive to being female and there are problems exclusive to being male, get over it.

I didn't suggest I knew if things are more difficult or not for a man, the poster asked if he is the bad guy because he is male white and straight.
I can only answer for two of those factors. I would say that yes I have on a very rare occasion been discriminated against for my race or sexual orientation, it's nothing I can't shake off easily though. I still think I have it easier because I am not a minority here. I have most definatley found gender discrimination to be the most frequent, but I am not solely pointing the finger at men for this.

I understand there are different problems for men and women, but the problem is that a lot of people can't see that there are still problems women encounter everyday just because of their gender.

Obviously it's not a utopian world out there for men either, but I can't see how our social standing is to blame for a high suicide rate among young men in this country.

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Sigh...seen as I'm doing nothing today.

Most of the problems on that list in the first post are imaginery or don't exist anymore - that list must have been written 30 years ag


I have never seen any evidence that women in Ireland are discriminated against in any of the above ways. Its probably more to do with the fact that if we don't get a job we take responsibility for it and try harder to achieve next time, or at least do something about why we failed. Women fail to take responsibilty and immediately call "sexism".

Oh it happens, believe me.
Why do you think married women between 25-40 often remove their wedding and engagement rings for job interviews?

Doctor DooM

Walls wrote: »

I know you think lists like this make others roll their eyes, but from my perspective some folks have had no exposure to this kind of discussion at all. That to me is not good enough, and by posting this list I'm trying to change that. Lots of people insist they firstly don't see anything on this list that applies to them, or if they do, that they suffer as well ya know. I'm arguing that at least some of that list applies to them whether they like it or not, and if they do suffer, then they shouldn't slag folks who are trying to do their bit, as they see it.

And I think Ghandi would be proud to have you wear it!

I must try and work that into the sig too

WindSock wrote: »

I didn't suggest I knew if things are more difficult or not for a man, the poster asked if he is the bad guy because he is male white and straight.
I can only answer for two of those factors. I would say that yes I have on a very rare occasion been discriminated against for my race or sexual orientation, it's nothing I can't shake off easily though. I still think I have it easier because I am not a minority here. I have most definatley found gender discrimination to be the most frequent, but I am not solely pointing the finger at men for this.

I understand there are different problems for men and women, but the problem is that a lot of people can't see that there are still problems women encounter everyday just because of their gender.

Obviously it's not a utopian world out there for men either, but I can't see how our social standing is to blame for a high suicide rate among young men in this country.

When I was a kid in school young males who didn't like football were branded as gay: There's so much wrong with that I am sure I don't need to start. Imagine being ostracised simply because you do not enjoy 22 people kicking a pigs bladder, How arbitrary is that? Society can be stupid sometimes and it does go both way.

I'm not saying women don't face it more: It just really reduces the impact of a list like that when it appears so one sided.

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh it happens, believe me.
Why do you think married women between 25-40 often remove their wedding and engagement rings for job interviews?

I'm a male and have performed interviews and can honestly say I never thought to check out my female potential co workers fingers. Again- it does happen- doesn't mean that it's due to society, it means assholes (and both males and females have bottoms, remember) exist.

Of course women are persecuted in some ways: Simply pointing out that list is a bit pants.

Boston

WindSock wrote: »

Obviously it's not a utopian world out there for men either, but I can't see how our social standing is to blame for a high suicide rate among young men in this country.

Of course you can't. In general men have to live up to an image of what they should be, whereas women have to live down to one.

SDooM

SDooM wrote: »

I'm a male and have performed interviews and can honestly say I never thought to check out my female potential co workers fingers. Again- it does happen- doesn't mean that it's due to society, it means assholes (and both males and females have bottoms, remember) exist.

Absolutely agree with you there.
I work with a woman who will always mention other women's family situations when discussing projects and questioning if they'll be able to put in the hours because they have "kids at home".
The same conversation would never arise with a working dad.

lee_arama

Funny all of this. I was going to say that it's great that we can just go out to te pub whenever we want.

If I suggested to either the current missus, or my significant ex, that we hit the pub there'd be cries of "but I'm not ready", or "OMG what will I wear" etc. The ex used put on the full battle paint just to go to the corner shop. Rather pathetic I thought, especially since I thought (and had told her as much) that she was stunning sans paint.

You girls continue to baffle me.

Whispered

Mikel wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. But if so, how do you know?
There could be a multitude of reasons

Boston wrote: »

Well yes, and much of that is down to living up to the stereotype presented by wall here. A man shouldn't have any problem, after all a man lives a privileged life

Mikel, I know why a very good friend of mine commited suicide, it was because he could not ask for help - as boston pointed out, that was because he was trying to live up to a sterotype. It is generally accepted that young men are more likely to commit suicide because they will not seek help. Can you offer any alternative suggestions? Boston - did I pick up your tone wrong? It seems to me like you were being sarcastic in my direction?? I did not at ANY stage say a man lives a more privileged life so please dont quote me and make it sound like I did.

SDooM wrote: »

I have however actually been subject to several "you're only a man" comments on a shop floor. It goes both ways.

I must admit that I would say this occasionally - always in a joking way. I would also not take offence if a friend made a sexist remark like that to me in a joking way - I know they respect me - and respect me as a woman, this is not a bad thing!

SDooM wrote: »

It's often been said to me that true feminism is assuming equality, not claiming superiority or shouting about equality. Lists like this just make people roll their eyes.

I agree, my view of TRUE feminism is accepting that I am a woman, I am different in some ways to men and I love those differences. I am better at some things then most men, and worse at some things. I have no problem if a man opens a door for me, I do the same for older people. It's about respect, not sex.

wylo

that original list displayed a serious amount of ignorance and am hopefull that women dont read that kind of stuff and actually beleive it cause the more i read the angrier i got.

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

not true anymore, maybe up to 15 to 20 years ago however.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

however if I have children and do stay at home I will be judged for not being the breadwinner

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

for example????

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Because more people of my own sex run for election and take interest in politics.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

As another poster said, how is that a privelege,

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

non stereotyped heroes??? haha

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

I genuinely dont think so but if this is true it is out of own ignorance for not knowing, but I really dont think so

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

how are these priveleges, either way we as men will be judged for these faults and not excused.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).

Agreed, fair enough

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

This is completely untrue as another poster said. Its the exact opposite regarding prices.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

Thats your choice

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

This is ignorant and unfair, also how about ,
If I am not the one who approaches the woman, shows great confidence and does all the work, I will end up with nobody!

or

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

An old fashioned statement at this stage

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.


40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

This will in turn mean that the child will be more loving and caring to their mother and have little affections to the father. This will allow the mother ALL the benefits of raising a child and allow the connectivity between the mother and child that the father will never experience.

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

Because the simple fact is that both women and men will appreciate this media whether its to do with the clothing, her hair,her figure or looks more than they will if it was more images of men.
A good example - Americas next top model, more women watch that than men.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

Not anymore

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

This I do notice and agree with.

Doctor DooM

helena.ryan wrote: »

Mikel, I know why a very good friend of mine commited suicide, it was because he could not ask for help - as boston pointed out, that was because he was trying to live up to a sterotype. It is generally accepted that young men are more likely to commit suicide because they will not seek help. Can you offer any alternative suggestions? Boston - did I pick up your tone wrong? It seems to me like you were being sarcastic in my direction?? I did not at ANY stage say a man lives a more privileged life so please dont quote me and make it sound like I did.


I must admit that I would say this occasionally - always in a joking way. I would also not take offence if a friend made a sexist remark like that to me in a joking way - I know they respect me - and respect me as a woman, this is not a bad thing!


I agree, my view of TRUE feminism is accepting that I am a woman, I am different in some ways to men and I love those differences. I am better at some things then most men, and worse at some things. I have no problem if a man opens a door for me, I do the same for older people. It's about respect, not sex.

The male stereotyping is an issue, as is female. It just works in a different way.

I know when people are messing with me and when people are not, and some people were quite vitriolic when they spat out the word "man". It does go both ways!

Glad you agree on the feminism issue.

Mikel

helena.ryan wrote: »

Mikel, I know why a very good friend of mine commited suicide, it was because he could not ask for help - as boston pointed out, that was because he was trying to live up to a sterotype. It is generally accepted that young men are more likely to commit suicide because they will not seek help. Can you offer any alternative suggestions?

it was because he could not ask for help - as boston pointed out, that was because he was trying to live up to a sterotype.

You're presuming it was for that reason. You don't know.

It is generally accepted that young men are more likely to commit suicide because they will not seek help

Generally accepted by whom? This may be true but again, you don't know, you're making a presumption.

Can you offer any alternative suggestions?

Whether I can or not does not affect whether it is true, like I said there could be multitude of reasons.

Sangre

Generalising is fun!

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

Idle speculation

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

Despite the fact that men are much, much more likely to be victim to violent crime (or any crime)

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

Just my sexuality

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

And called odd behind my back and have people wonder why I couldn't get a decent job and provide for my family.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

But I will be looked down on if I want to

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

Never seen this in Ireland

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Odd considering we live in a democracy and both men and women have the vote

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

True but mostly due to those in a higher position being older and belonging to a different generation

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More)

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

Speculation

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

And I would not need to do this if I was a women either.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

So can my female friends

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

There is no such thing as a boy racer

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).

Just my masculinity and sexuality

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

No, my clothing is as expensive or more expensive. I just choose to buy less.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

If I choose to spend more time or money on it I'm obviously a homosexual

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

I'll just be called a loud mouthed asshole.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

Unfortunately these special interests ignore the problems of rape and domestic violence affecting men. The latter is particularly swept under the carpet. A women does not face ridicule for saying her spouse assaults them

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

Because all religions were created in a time when this was the case.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

Chances are people will assume I'm lazy slob who can't look after himself because I'm a man.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

I think I need a spouse who isn't a doormat

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

Because marketing studies show this type of advertising doesn't work as well on women

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

I just need to be broad, tall and have a full head of hair. Boys are never ridiculed in school for being fat or crap at games.

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

If I am homosexual its incredibly likely everyone else will beat me up

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

They just assault
me

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

On average men like making up facts just as much as women

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

This is probably why I commit suicide so much more. I don't know how good I've got it.

Whispered

Mikel wrote: »

You're presuming it was for that reason. You don't know.

In that case, I know why.

Mikel wrote: »

Generally accepted by whom? This may be true but again, you don't know, you're making a presumption.


Whether I can or not does not affect whether it is true, like I said there could be multitude of reasons.

I googled and the first thing I came up with was this http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2000/06/10/current/ipage_0.htm

The majority of young male suicides have no history of psychological illness. In fact 5% of the Irish population suffer from severe clinical depression and a further 5% suffer from a milder form of the illness. Part of the explanation for the gender difference is the emotional reticence among men a tendency to isolate oneself and hone in on certain aspects of their life.
For many the definition of manhood is the strong silent type model. Depression carries with it a sense of shame. An admission that a man suffers from depression carries with it a high disapproval factor. As little as 15% of Irish men who suffer form depression are diagnosed. Most Irish males do not have peers with whom they are comfortable to share their emotional distress. Some are not emotionally honest with themselves and cannot identify the cause of their anxiety or acknowledge it.

then this http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/men3stats.html

The Samaritans’ report Young Men Speak Out [42] surveyed young male attitudes in the UK. The report highlights the fact that 12 young men kill themselves every week in the UK, and suggests that macho stereotypes are preventing young men from asking for help. The survey of young male attitudes reveals that young men in distress are more likely to use violence and anti-social behaviour to express themselves than they are to tell someone how they feel.

http://www.vhi.ie/hfiles/hf-008.jsp

Over 300,000 people in Ireland suffer from depression every year. Women are affected more than men. However, statistics show that every year consistently more men than women commit suicide or attempt suicide (parasuicide), perhaps because men are more reluctant than women to seek help for depressive symptoms or talk to others about their feelings. The highest rates of depression occur in adults aged between 25 and 44 years.

Ok Mikel, so there are some quotes from an irish newspaper, the samartains (who I would imagine know what they are talking about) and from the VHI. Is it a presumption if I can back it up? I would presume that for some reason you took offence to the fact I stated that men are more likely to commit suicide because of sterotyping. Why?

larko

I am a 30 yr old female. I work in an all male environment, always have. i went to college with all males. This is what I have found in my 12 years of work life...

I do get discriminated against when I attend interviews. Twice I have been asked about if I plan to have children, get married etc. I know this is against the law but it happens. I have been passed over for jobs because of my sex, I know this for a fact. But what I think is that it is that company's loss.

Once I get a job, I tend to excel within the company. I tend to have v good personal skills with tech skills so it makes me a great team player. I get on really well with my male colleagues and we all respect each other. No hidden agendas really.

I think having my female presence is great for them as much as their male presence is great for me. I have had "tough" guys tell me very personal stuff. Stuff that I reckon they may not have been able to tell anyone else and I feel honoured for that fact. And this works both ways. Along my career I have had some bad experiences but the good outweigh the bad. I am proud to be a woman. I am proud to be able to admit my strengths and weaknesses and work WITH men so we can help each other.

Lists are barriers.

the_syco

WindSock wrote: »

men can't wear skirts and make up etc.

Aye, they just wear make up (think Paul Stanley)

WindSock

Boston wrote: »

Of course you can't. In general men have to live up to an image of what they should be, whereas women have to live down to one.

Thats very true, I agree to an extent. All I have to do to survive is meet a man and procreate, then I get a house etc in with the deal and a lifetime job of domesticated child rearing.
Unfortunatley now it's not that easy anymore. Things have become more complicated because not all women realise they want to do that. Sure, it's something to fall back on, and it's great we often get to choose not to, but there are still great hurdles to overcome if we choose not to.

Amazotheamazing

And yet society looks down on men who wish to stay at home with his kids while their mother goes off work.... oh the inhumanity, the injustice of it all.

Walls

larko wrote: »

Lists are barriers.

Actually, lists (at least the one in this case) is a starting point of discussion.

Whispered

Walls wrote: »

Actually, lists (at least the one in this case) is a starting point of discussion.

Very true

It's interesting to see really. There are some die hard women who hate to be treated as anything but men (I don't mean that in an insulting way at all, I suppose I'm just not phrasing it correctly) then you have the more softly approach which celebrates the fact we're different, perhaps this is old fashioned? (my opinion is this is true feminism, rejoycing in being a woman). At least with those two types you know where you stand. I have often thought that some women I know tend to play up to the "oh I'm a woman" thing when it suits them but dare a man say it and he's sexist, chauvinistic, scum of the earth This really bugs the hell out of me!

lee_arama

Mmm mmm! *snaps fingers*

Absolutely. A lot of girls out there want to be treated as equals with men (and rightly so) but then also want to treated as the fairer sex, want doors held open, taken out to dinner, etc etc etc.

I certainly don't mind going the extra mile trying to make a girl that bit more special, but as a guy I wonder do girls realise what little things guys consider their doors and dinners?

It's the mutts nuts when herself picks up a Mint Crisp for me, or a few pairs of socks. Us lads NEVER have enough socks ya know.

Whispered

lee_arama wrote: »

Mmm mmm! *snaps fingers*

Absolutely. A lot of girls out there want to be treated as equals with men (and rightly so) but then also want to treated as the fairer sex, want doors held open, taken out to dinner, etc etc etc.

For me holding a door open is not a sex issue, it's a manners issue. Just as I would hold a door open for someone - male or female who is walking behind me. Or if I'm walking through a door and someone is coming through the other side I will generally stand back to allow them through - male female or otherwise. It's all about manners and respect.