9 Gardai 3 squad cars for revenge posse beats up man, 4 face dismissal

humanji

Oh, for f*cks sake. You simply don't get it. The system WORKS!!!!! Corrupt gardai are being found and whittled out. But your blind prejudice doesn't want to accept that there could ever be anyone in any police force that isn't corrupt. Why do you hate them so much? Why do you assume all of them (the several thousand of them) are all the same as the small amount that you hear of in the media (and surely I don't have to point out that the media make more money fromthe juicier stories about police corruption).

Macroom Man

humanji wrote: »

Probably a bad example to pick, since it's showing that the system works. Those in the wrong have been found.

but NOT punished! All bar two walked away with full pensions.

humanji

It's early days yet.

lostexpectation

Probably a bad example to pick, since it's showing that the system works. Those in the wrong have been found.

the reports strongly indicated there are likely to face dismissal and they were suspended immediately and you still have people suggesting the guy who was beaten up was lying.

it should never happened in the first place shows their modus operandi the mindset, you really believe it won't happen again, could a supervising gardai not notice this happen? are any of them and the rest of the gardai up for discipline? and evey gardai apologiser questioning the how the situation happened, why if the main gardai was involved in a altercation with the man did he return to his house the next day? surely he should have written reports giving the info to other gardai and let them handle it.


this idea if you don't do anything you won't come across them but often you can't avoid them and if they choose not to like you then your not safe.

The report finds that several people were mistreated whilst in Garda custody - verbally and in some cases through physical abuse.
http://www.highlandradio.com/news.php?articleid=000002059


there was very little reaction from the docu on frank shortt and the harrassemtn the garda did to the people of his town.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Sixth_Morris_tribunal_report


look at this form the US
cops beating up people they are trying to arrest
http://video.news.sky.com/?videoSourceID=1315206&flashURL=feeds/skynews/latest/flash/beating_u8559_070508.flv
apparently a cop was shot at bank robbery the previous weak so they decided to take it out on people

this idea that police allowed to beat and kill people (cos they were protecting their own safety) must be removed

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/05/06/exclusive-video-tourist-death-in-police-custody-89520-20406924/
no justice

link to morris report
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Sixth_Morris_tribunal_report

oscarBravo

lostexpectation wrote: »

this idea if you don't do anything you won't come across them but often you can't avoid them and if they choose not to like you then your not safe.

The flipside is the assumption that all cops are pigs and that the only people not cowering behind locked doors are the ones who have never met a Garda.

I have dealings with Gardaí on a reasonably regular basis. I haven't had any issues with them. In the main I've found them to be polite and professional, doing a difficult job to the best of their ability.

Based on my experience, I'm not going to claim that there are no problems in the force, but I'm also skeptical of the idea that it's rotten to the core.

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote: »

The flipside is the assumption that all cops are pigs and that the only people not cowering behind locked doors are the ones who have never met a Garda.

I don't believe that is the flipside tbh. It's not unreasonable to state that one believes the force is still pretty unprofessional and needs further reform along the lines of how british forces, which have come a long way (including the PSNI who I find top-notch).

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have dealings with Gardaí on a reasonably regular basis. I haven't had any issues with them. In the main I've found them to be polite and professional, doing a difficult job to the best of their ability.

I also have dealings with them at least once a month. Last time I called to report a theft and the use of a child to steal and I was told "we'll be with you in a few minutes". They never showed up.....and this is not the first time by a long shot!

Secondly, anyone who's worked in the licenced trade (as I did when a student) will tell you of Guards knocking in after hours for a free pint or two. I know-I stood behind the bar and served them as my publican boss wanted them "kept happy", despite cusring them from a height when they weren't around! Not all guards do this-but it happens.

But the worst example I have is one I'm not free to talk about in detail. Suffice to say it was a civil matter involving an alegation of trespass and two giggling ban-Gardai showed up and made complete asses out of themselves as they displayed almost no knowledge of the civil law. I wouldn't have minded them simply saying "it's a civil matter and we don't feel qualified to make comment" but oh no, they made comments including insinuating that I had falsified or could have falsified a deed of administatration (a legal document issued by the probate office!). I was absolutely raging at these two morons being out on the beat by themselves. Muppets!

They are not a professional enough force yet. Must try harder.

turgon

Well to be honest lads, if we didn't have a stupid common law system, and a judicial system as strong as my three legged blind dog, the gardai wouldn't be getting so frustrated. Ill be honest, I wouldn't be totally against forming a vigilante group to clean up the streets. You see all these thugs getting off with suspended sentences, do judges think they will have a change of heart? I don't, a tough action should precipitate a tough reaction.







Now before i get abused I am well aware of the volatility of vigilante groups and that despite my optimism I realize they probably would not work. Probably.

lostexpectation

oscarBravo wrote: »

Based on my experience, I'm not going to claim that there are no problems in the force, but I'm also skeptical of the idea that it's rotten to the core.

name a police force that isn't rotten to the core.

Mr.Micro

I do not believe that the Garda Siochana are rotten to the core, but there is probably an element in the force that would not be considered fair, just or even handed to put it mildly. It seems to be very difficult to convict a Garda in Ireland when a prosecution arises as the jury is usually swayed in thinking that the Gardai are beyond wrongdoing, too many years of unaccountability, forgetting that they the Gardai are there to serve the nation.

Many Judges in the old days used to accept a Garda's word without question over that of a suspect or an accused. I do believe we are still waiting the outcome of McCarthy shooting about 7 years ago, the May day cops all got off despite taking their ids off and beating all before them. A Garda can resign often to avoid prosecution it seems. There is still no REAL effective body to investigate the Gardai. The Ombudsman is a start I guess but many Gardai IMO feel invincible helped by the closed shop of the force. When I was growing up, to become a Garda was one way of getting a job in jobless Ireland, some of the biggest trouble makers, bruisers joined the force, so if my small town was indicative of what makes up the force then many of those ruffians are probably still in the Gardai.

oscarBravo

lostexpectation wrote: »

name a police force that isn't rotten to the core.

Define (clearly) "rotten to the core".

nhughes100

humanji wrote: »

Oh, for f*cks sake. You simply don't get it. The system WORKS!!!!! Corrupt gardai are being found and whittled out. But your blind prejudice doesn't want to accept that there could ever be anyone in any police force that isn't corrupt. Why do you hate them so much? Why do you assume all of them (the several thousand of them) are all the same as the small amount that you hear of in the media (and surely I don't have to point out that the media make more money fromthe juicier stories about police corruption).

Hit a nerve? I don't have any blind prejudice, you don't need 20/20 vision to see whats going on in that force. Some community Gardai and the CAB do a good job but I believe that the Gardai in general and as an institution are a law onto themselves, remember they opposed the Garda Ombudsman giving the line that Oh we think the integrity of the Garda Siochana is being questioned here. Damm right it's being questioned.

Another poster mentioned their lack of professionalism. This is totally right, a few weeks ago I was at a GAA match and parked the car like hundreds of others on a double yellow line, a guy approached me saying the Gardai will clamp u there mate but u can park in here for a fiver, I told him I'd take my chances with the clamp. I told the first Garda I saw and his responce - tell him to fk off. Now imagine an English or American policeman saying that.

They could start by getting a proper uniform and making sure it fits, they need to learn how to be professional and not use the fact that they have a job as a police officer to get them into pubs after hours and get in free to copper face jacks. I was once on a night link that was flagged down by a drunk off duty copper waving his warrent card. The bus driver stopped for him. They need to start being paid properly so we can cut out the overtime scams(no shortage of police at a GAA match/public event, severe shortage most other times) The money a rank and file Garda earns is cat, it they want to attract proper people then they should pay better. There is no proper career structure, they are woefully equiped and the Garda stations are a disgrace. All of the above and more lead me to believe that the whole Garda ethos comes straight from the top. They need to start enforcing petty crimes and showing up in court(or coming up with a system of a statement being admissable) seriously what a waste of police time for minor offences. That and the Garda reserve needs to be taken seriously - I heard there are only 300 reservists? It's been treated like the FCA.

Noticed the ever increasing numbers heading north to join the PSNI? check out the forums on this site for some very interesting insights.

The way the mcBrearty family were treated would have led to the top men resigning in the PSNI but not down here. Dean Lyons etc etc etc

So for as far as me not getting it - I think not. The office of the Garda ombudsman advertised for investigators today, better paid and higher entry criteria then the Gardai - interesting eh?

Oh and more or less the same amount of newspapers are sold every day, people buy papers out of habit not because the Gardai are on the front page.

event

jaysus havent seen one of these in a while, the usual boards garda bashing thread.

carry on lads

humanji

Oh and more or less the same amount of newspapers are sold every day, people buy papers out of habit not because the Gardai are on the front page.

Since you're that naive, there's little point going on.

oscarBravo

Careful now, humanji.

humanji

Sorry. And sorry nhughes100.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

I don't believe that is the flipside tbh. It's not unreasonable to state that one believes the force is still pretty unprofessional and needs further reform along the lines of how british forces, which have come a long way (including the PSNI who I find top-notch).

On the other hand, the forces you name have been accused in recent years of institutionalised racism (the Stepehn Lawrence Inquiry), collusion with terrorists (The Stevens Inquiry), operating a shoot to kill policy, shooting a commuter for looking like a Muslim terrorist, the Hillsborough farce etc. etc. While I appreciate that, in particular the RUC/PSNI have to deal with very different threats, they have blots on their records that are damning.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, the forces you name have been accused in recent years of institutionalised racism (the Stepehn Lawrence Inquiry), collusion with terrorists (The Stevens Inquiry), operating a shoot to kill policy, shooting a commuter for looking like a Muslim terrorist, the Hillsborough farce etc. etc. While I appreciate that, in particular the RUC/PSNI have to deal with very different threats, they have blots on their records that are damning.

Indeed, but they have ombudsmen to investigate these matters. The PSNI is not the RUC. It has changed immeasurably. a handful of bad apples don't make the Met or West Yorkshire Constabulary bad forces....this is not what I am accusing the guards of. I am more accusing them of incompetence and unprofessionalism rather than corruption or racism. They are more bungling idiots than nasty people IMO. Even this story about these guards being suspended is more proof of them being yahoo boyos than corrupt coppers.

turgon

Get a grip on yourselves lads. Your talking like the Gardai are some sort of Military Junta like over in Burma. Were so used to human rights and "tip toe justice" in this country that we complain about everything, when in fact we have it so good. At least they arent coming out to shoot you for the disrespect you have shown, which is what would happen in some places.

marcsignal

lostexpectation wrote: »

name a police force that isn't rotten to the core.

*snigger* I was genuinely reading this thread with interest up until now, but you just BLEW your whole arguement right there.

Enough said.

Erin Go Brath

turgon wrote: »

Get a grip on yourselves lads. Your talking like the Gardai are some sort of Military Junta like over in Burma. Were so used to human rights and "tip toe justice" in this country that we complain about everything, when in fact we have it so good. At least they arent coming out to shoot you for the disrespect you have shown, which is what would happen in some places.

Thats a riduclous comparison to be making. I suppose the government are doing a wonderful job of running the country because we're not in the middle of a famine aswell?

I dont know the minutae of this incident, but of course the guards should be relieved of their duties if they abuse their powers and act outside the rules such as appears to be the case in this incident. Theres been enough corruption in that force in the past. Public confidence in their police force is very important!

nhughes100

Apology accepted but just out of interest one of my friends works in the distribution centre of a major national newspaper so that's how I know that little fact. We all know the media like to exagerate things.

I think EringoBrath makes a good point, we have to be constantly vigilant especially on justice, we've all seen examples around the world of how easily rights can be eroded. I'm all on for hard punishment for criminals but to be able to justify this the system has to be airtight.

FTA69

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Definitely not the best course of action by the gardai, but am I the only one who thinks that there's not enough emphasis on

1) The garda knew the identity of the individual from the course of his duties

Entirely irrelevant.

If someone throws punches at a Garda then they deserve some punishment at least....why aren't they up for assault ?

Why? Surely assault is assault? A Guard is only a Guard if he is on duty, if he is off-duty, mouldy drunk and out on the streets fighting like a f*cking eejit then the fact he is 5-0 makes no difference.

Mr. Presentable

murphaph wrote: »

well, I thought it was obvious I was making a generalisation. Of course there are exceptions everywhere but I maintain that most decent people fear the Gardai moreso than respect them.

The only people I know who fear the gardai are not "decent people"

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

5-0

lol funky dude, you is one slick honky!

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote: »

A Guard is only a Guard if he is on duty...

Just on a point of order, this is factually incorrect.

nhughes100

nipplenuts wrote: »

The only people I know who fear the gardai are not "decent people"

Tell that to Frank McBrearty or wait until you need the Gardai and see what sort of response you get. To me the Gardai are a bit like the priesthood, their respect level in Irish society used to be huge and freely given but this was abused. It is in the interest of our democracy to keep a vigilint eye on justice.

dresden8

nipplenuts wrote: »

The only people I know who fear the gardai are not "decent people"

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/four-out-of-six-cases-cited-as-incidents-of-brutality-are-disputed-477549.html

lostexpectation

written by jim cusack!!!! in 2004, photocopy boy for the gardai

of course the gardai would dispute it....

The fact that gardai were searching for Shane Coates - a known dangerous criminal - was not mentioned on Prime Time.

The payment was made after it was stated in evidence that his name was illegally added to an arrest warrant.

oh yes the media are dreadful arn't they, which is the worse crime eh?


The Garda Commissioner's office has written to RTE to complain about the programme and is also known to be angry about the way that Assistant Commissioner Nacie Rice, who was to have mounted the Garda's defence, was filmed continuously for 45 minutes and presented with cases about which he had not been briefed.

not much of an assistent commissioner then

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Why? Surely assault is assault? A Guard is only a Guard if he is on duty, if he is off-duty, mouldy drunk and out on the streets fighting like a f*cking eejit then the fact he is 5-0 makes no difference.

Did you not read my post ? You seem to have the argument backwards.

My point was that the "hang the guards" brigade seem to have overlooked the fact that the Guard was assaulted.

As you say, assault is assault. So, like I asked earlier why is the scumbag not up for assault.

lostexpectation wrote:

written by jim cusack!!!!

And if ANY article is by Jim Cusack, pass the salt.......I've seen him print enough rubbish, fiction and supposition over the years it's almost laughable. :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

the hang guard are more worried about people abusing their professional positions to gang up 9 to 1 to beat somebody up during work.