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9 Gardai 3 squad cars for revenge posse beats up man, 4 face dismissal

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    #92
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    yeah i probably would.
    Who wants contaminated apples?

    "Bad Apples" is i think, ordinarily a type of fungal disease.
    I'll wager that if you've a box, and 12 of the apples show the disease, that infact ALL the apples are contaminated, just they aren't showing signs visible to the eye.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apple_diseases
    Nasty stuff.
    I certainly wouldn't feed them to my kids!


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    #93
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,311 ✭✭✭markpb


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    If they want my respect, they'll have to earn it now as some of their members have previously trashed it.

    They do earn it, every day of the week but you don't hear about it. You only hear about it when something goes wrong or one of the rotten apples is exposed. Let me know next time you see the newspapers print this headline: Gardai do tough job well!

    Every day gardai do mundane jobs and dangerous jobs, never knowing which it will be. A routine traffic stop could get you shot in the chest because the car is stolen. Visiting an old man who has been threatening his neighbours could be lethal because he saw you coming and attached a live wire to the door knob. Aiding the sheriff serve an eviction notice could see you cowering behind the engine block of a car while a gun collector loses the plot and forces you to stand up (with no protection: no vest, no gun) and negotiate with him so he will let an ambulance take away two injured men.

    You don't see it and you shouldn't have to but it's being done every day of the week. If you want to judge the entire force based on the actions of a few, no-one is going to change your mind but don't believe for a minute you're being unbiased or reasonable.


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    #94
    ART6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    Sure. Criticise them to hell and gone. Don't like 'em. Don't trust 'em, particulary when they book me for speeding. But if some guy twice your size is in your house and threatening your property and your family, who would you like to be coming your way with blues on blues flashing? I wouldn't do their job but I am very pleased that someone does.


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    #95
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    seamus wrote: »
    Jumping to conclusions a little there.

    Not really, I said "probably" because nobody can really make a definitive statement on the issue. Perhaps he was walking down the road and was attacked, perhaps he was drunk and involved himself in a brawl, the article puts across the view that it was more of a scrap than anything else. If it was a case of clear cut assault you can be sure he wouldn't have waited until the next morning to call his colleagues.
    Any Gardai I know, make a serious attempt at keeping their head down where they're out in civvies, regardless of how drunk they are.
    .

    Will you ever go on. The amount of times I have seen off-duty cops flash their badges with a view to gaining free entry into clubs, they also come in to pubs for lock-ins (free drink again) and then drive themselves home. There are plenty of Guards who make a big song and dance about who and what they are while out on the town.
    They're the last people who would engage with a scumbag they'd arrested, unless they were left with no choice

    My hole.
    It's equally likely that the scumbag jumped the Garda, which basically leaves him with no choice but to fight back.

    Possibly, I don't know. As I said, I have no sympathy for either party in this dispute.


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    #96
    event
    Registered Users Posts: 16,051 ✭✭✭✭event


    markpb wrote: »
    They do earn it, every day of the week but you don't hear about it. You only hear about it when something goes wrong or one of the rotten apples is exposed. Let me know next time you see the newspapers print this headline: Gardai do tough job well!

    Every day gardai do mundane jobs and dangerous jobs, never knowing which it will be. A routine traffic stop could get you shot in the chest because the car is stolen. Visiting an old man who has been threatening his neighbours could be lethal because he saw you coming and attached a live wire to the door knob. Aiding the sheriff serve an eviction notice could see you cowering behind the engine block of a car while a gun collector loses the plot and forces you to stand up (with no protection: no vest, no gun) and negotiate with him so he will let an ambulance take away two injured men.

    You don't see it and you shouldn't have to but it's being done every day of the week. If you want to judge the entire force based on the actions of a few, no-one is going to change your mind but don't believe for a minute you're being unbiased or reasonable.

    that is a brilliant post


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    #97
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Will you ever go on. The amount of times I have seen off-duty cops flash their badges with a view to gaining free entry into clubs, they also come in to pubs for lock-ins (free drink again) and then drive themselves home. There are plenty of Guards who make a big song and dance about who and what they are while out on the town.
    I know lots of guards, and I've never, ever seen this happen (apart from after-hours drinking, and then I've never seen any free drink involved). Hand on heart, I can honestly say I've only ever seen one Garda ID badge.

    Guards who abuse their position should be disciplined, but tarring them all with the same brush isn't on either.


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    #98
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    event wrote: »
    that is a brilliant post

    Absolutely


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    #99
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    It's very easy for some one without any experience to judge the Gardai and say that they know better when it's obvious they don't, the arguments you have presented are twisted to show the Gardai in the worst possible light and that says something about you, in my opinion you are totally clueless about what happens in An Garda Siochana in real life, its easy for those who sit at home on the couch every evening to make comments and suggestions about the people who go out every day doing a job they would never have the guts to do themselves!
    We have every right to question the actions of the members of AGS. We are the people.


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    #100
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    murphaph wrote: »
    We have every right to question the actions of the members of AGS. We are the people.

    I suppose this is the old "we pay your wages" line coming up?


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    #101
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    FTA69 wrote: »
    My hole.
    I'm convinced. :rolleyes:
    Like oscarBravo, I've yet to see a Garda flash his badge to get free access or free beer, or otherwise make a song and dance about being a Garda while out on the beer. And I've been out on the beer with plenty of Gardai, plenty of times.


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    #102
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    I suppose this is the old "we pay your wages" line coming up?
    It goes without saying doesn't it? Do you have a problem with someone like myself (paying tax continually since I was 16, no convictions, cautions, arrests) questioning the behaviour of my police force?


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    #103
    CLADA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    nhughes100 wrote: »
    I didn't realise you had to be a member of a specialist unit to have an opinion but maybe Oscarbravo should familiarise himself with non lethal force. There's plenty of examples to be found outside of Hollywood, wouldn't be a great film if they threw in a tear gas/pepper spray grenade, the siege ended and not a shot was fired now would it?

    Less than lethal weapons weren't available to the Gardai in Abbeylara and had they been I don't think they would have "smoked him out".
    Even today if gas was deployed forcing somebody to exit a house disorientated and aggressive it could be seen as a provocative action by Gardai especially if it led to the death of that person.


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    #104
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    murphaph wrote: »
    It goes without saying doesn't it? Do you have a problem with someone like myself (paying tax continually since I was 16, no convictions, cautions, arrests) questioning the behaviour of my police force?

    I think this question was beautifully answered by Metman and Karlitosway1978 in the "Protesters Filming Gardai Vs Garda right to protect their identity" thread (sorry can't link)
    metman wrote: »
    What a lot of people forget is that members of the police are also members of the public. Similarly what a lot of people forget is that police officers are also tax payers and pay their own wages. So saying 'I PAY YOUR WAGES' to a copper won't cut much ice.
    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    On that basis can you sack or discipline a Garda? Negotiate their wages and tell them what jobs to do or not do? No you cant because your not their boss anymore than I am Bill Gates boss and a good thing to or policing would be a complete waste of time considering their bosses wouldnt let Gardai arrest them, give them a ticket or in fact take any action they didnt like.

    If you want to compare AGS to other areas then I suggest you consider yourself a customer and as such are entitled to a certain level of service in terms of manners and product delivery. Not however, in terms of seeing how the company is run or who is paid what or how much money the company spends in certain areas. Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.


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    #105
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    markpb wrote: »
    They do earn it, every day of the week but you don't hear about it. You only hear about it when something goes wrong or one of the rotten apples is exposed.
    And yet so many times the gardai don't do their jobs, carry around an attitude, refuse to take statements from the public, fail to follow-up on instances they were called out to etc.
    There's a poster on the cycling forum that catalogs every instance he's reported with Traffic Watch, probably over 100 instances; how many times have the Gardai followed-up? 33%
    That is a failure rate regardless of what industry you're in.

    If the Gardai are so benvolent, how come it isn't THEY whom are rooting out the "rotten apples"?
    Why does it have to be Tribunals and years and years of bull****?


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    #106
    briantwin
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭briantwin


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I know lots of guards, and I've never, ever seen this happen (apart from after-hours drinking, and then I've never seen any free drink involved). Hand on heart, I can honestly say I've only ever seen one Garda ID badge.

    Guards who abuse their position should be disciplined, but tarring them all with the same brush isn't on either.

    If you ever want to see the AGS "I'm a member!" attitude in full swing. Just go out in Waterford at the weekends. The number of times i've seen guys wave their badges at bouncers who didn't immediately recognize them and then be let in for free. I've seen groups of cops getting served round after round of free booze in certain clubs. I was told by a taxi driver down there (im not from the area) that the amount of blind eyes turned when it came to cases of serious assault by bouncers was sick.


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    #107
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,311 ✭✭✭markpb


    briantwin wrote: »
    If you ever want to see the AGS "I'm a member!" attitude in full swing. Just go out in Waterford at the weekends. The number of times i've seen guys wave their badges at bouncers who didn't immediately recognize them and then be let in for free. I've seen groups of cops getting served round after round of free booze in certain clubs.

    Not to be rude but who cares? If the license holder decides to waive the admission fee and give them free drink, what difference does it make? Is it costing you anything or does it harm you in _any_ way? If the gardai were harassing the owner into giving them fringe benefits, I'd have a problem with it.
    I was told by a taxi driver down there (im not from the area) that the amount of blind eyes turned when it came to cases of serious assault by bouncers was sick.

    I've been told so many things by taxi drivers that I'm running out of pinches of salt :D


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    #108
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    markpb wrote: »
    Not to be rude but who cares? If the license holder decides to waive the admission fee and give them free drink, what difference does it make? Is it costing you anything or does it harm you in _any_ way?
    And if the poster was talking about events taking place in west Belfast and instead it were members of the provisional IRA instead of Gardai, would you take the same view?
    Why or why not?


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    #109
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,311 ✭✭✭markpb


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    And if the poster was talking about events taking place in west Belfast and instead it were members of the provisional IRA instead of Gardai, would you take the same view?
    Why or why not?

    Publicans let Gardai in free of charge because they know if there's a problem, it can be dealt with quickly. I'm sure the IRA could "deal" with it too but the difference is the Gardai will deal with the problem within the remit of the law. The IRA will not, leaving the publican open to charges of aiding and abetting.

    If the gardai were doing favours for the publicans or threatening them to get free drink, I'd have a huge problem with it but the reality is it's a back scratching exercise. The publican benefits from the presence of off-duty gardai and the garda gets a few free drinks. My local doctor treats old people for next to nothing - should I be worried that they've ganged together and threatened to beat him to death with their zimmer frames if he doesn't submit to them? :)


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    #110
    bartholomewbinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭bartholomewbinn


    briantwin wrote: »
    If you ever want to see the AGS "I'm a member!" attitude in full swing. Just go out in Waterford at the weekends. The number of times i've seen guys wave their badges at bouncers who didn't immediately recognize them and then be let in for free. I've seen groups of cops getting served round after round of free booze in certain clubs. I was told by a taxi driver down there (im not from the area) that the amount of blind eyes turned when it came to cases of serious assault by bouncers was sick.

    Drop a line to your local Superintendent, (anonymous if you like), give names and dates and places. That will soon put a stop to that. (It works, believe me.)


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    #111
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    markpb wrote: »
    Publicans let Gardai in free of charge because they know if there's a problem, it can be dealt with quickly.
    Doesn't make much sense markpb, the publican in the post above is already paying bouncers.
    A more likely explanation, is that the gardai are operating like mobsters, using their positions of power to acquire free drink, and probably skipping the queue to boot.


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    #112
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Doesn't make much sense markpb, the publican in the post above is already paying bouncers.

    Of course!!!! I mean, bouncers never have to call the Gardai!

    A more likely explanation, is that the gardai are operating like mobsters, using their positions of power to acquire free drink, and probably skipping the queue to boot.

    I presume you'd have the same problem with the various vacuous "socialites" and "celebrities" getting in for free, then ? AFAIK, this is standard practice for them....why not for the Gardai, who at least contribute to society ?


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    #113
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    "socialites" and "celebrities" = Gardai

    :pac:


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    #114
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Of course!!!! I mean, bouncers never have to call the Gardai!
    What good what it do to call off duty gardai?
    Wait, would that mean that members of that organisation get preferential treatment?
    Isn't that exactly what the earlier poster was saying?
    Should an off duty garda get better service than a member of the public?


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    #115
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,311 ✭✭✭markpb


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    What good what it do to call off duty gardai?
    Wait, would that mean that members of that organisation get preferential treatment?
    Isn't that exactly what the earlier poster was saying?
    Should an off duty garda get better service than a member of the public?

    An off duty garda is just one who doesn't have to make themselves available for duty - they are still sworn members of AGS with full powers of arrest. They have the right to detain someone while they wait for transport, a power than bouncers don't have.


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    #116
    RDM_83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 213 ✭✭RDM_83


    this thread seems to have moved off topic but I'l throw in my 2 cents.
    I believe the reason negative opinion many people have of the Garda on the street is to do with there dealing with the public (talking in relation to Dublin), spend ten minutes at the Jervis luas stop, in that amount of time you'l probably see one offence (most likely some one dealing with class A's) and probably 3 or 4 reasons to tell people to vacate the area (being drunk and abusive, giving minors alcohol etc) now this is the centre of the city-however the impression I get is that these offences are ignored cos its too much hastle too arrest these people (cos they don't care and cos they might take a swing) but its much easier to grab a student and put the fear of god into them for doing something fairly harmless.
    Or in the case of a person I know, arrest them when drunk, charge them with being drunk and disorderly and assaulting a garda, then when the person concerned hires a soliciter due to the seriousness of the second charge then discovers that the alleged assault took place in the station (having previously presumed that the assault charge would have "occured" at the site of the arrest) and there is no cctv footage of the assault, when court date comes around case thrown out because of mistakes in paperwork.

    PS all of the dealings I've had with the AGS when not being told to "pour that drink away" ;) have been positive (but then I'm not one for "giving back cheek" )

    My main gripe though is how the justice system functions in this country (and if I was a member of AGS I would have lost faith in it) and the sentences imposed for very serious offenses take the difference between these two cases (which occured within a few days of each other)
    http://www.derryjournal.com/court/Liam-Devlin-39kicked-15-times.3108184.jp

    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/man-charged-with-serious-assault-after-dublin-stabbing-1052663.html


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    #117
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Otacon wrote: »
    :pac:

    Did I say that ???? Erm - no! Please don't misquote me!

    What I asked is that if you have a problem with Gardai skipping queues, surely you'd have a problem with socialites and celebrities.....

    I never said they were one and the same!! In fact, I pointed out the difference - most Gardai perform a valuable service to society, whereas I've never met a socialite who did.

    Some actual celebrities might (i.e. some of the actors, etc, that actually make decent films and TV programmes) but the BB-style "famous for being famous" idiots don't.....and I've NEVER come across a socialite who did anything worthwhile.....


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    #118
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Did I say that ???? Erm - no! Please don't misquote me!

    I apologise. It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, hence the :pac:
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    What I asked is that if you have a problem with Gardai skipping queues, surely you'd have a problem with socialites and celebrities.....

    And who says we don't have issues with that either. Both cases involve people who believe they are more important than the rest of us grunts. Though there are some legitimate cases for both.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I never said they were one and the same!! In fact, I pointed out the difference - most Gardai perform a valuable service to society, whereas I've never met a socialite who did.

    When they are off-duty, they are citizens like everyone else. I don't get free stuff in Maplins cos I work in IT.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Some actual celebrities might (i.e. some of the actors, etc, that actually make decent films and TV programmes) but the BB-style "famous for being famous" idiots don't.....and I've NEVER come across a socialite who did anything worthwhile.....

    Socialites and celebraties are allowed into clubs/restaurants/high-street shops for free or get free stuff as it is seen as advertising for the business. Off-duty Gardai are let in due to
    (1.)innocent reasons (knowing the club owner and being friends etc) or
    (2.)dubious reasons (allowing a Garda into a club for preferential treatment is not on, neither is a Garda intimidating the owner to be allowed in)


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    #119
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    And yet so many times the gardai don't do their jobs, carry around an attitude, refuse to take statements from the public, fail to follow-up on instances they were called out to etc.
    There's a poster on the cycling forum that catalogs every instance he's reported with Traffic Watch, probably over 100 instances; how many times have the Gardai followed-up? 33%
    That is a failure rate regardless of what industry you're in.

    If the Gardai are so benvolent, how come it isn't THEY whom are rooting out the "rotten apples"?
    Why does it have to be Tribunals and years and years of bull****?
    Indeed. I was the VICTIM of a hit and run whilst riding my motorcycle. I dutifully called the Gardai and they said I'd have to come in and make a statement (contrary to the UK where they generally call around to you!) and they refused to take a description of the car over the phone (just to make sure they couldn't put a call out on the radio lest they actually catch the ba$ard who ran me over). So I had to go get xrays and my bike needed recovery etc. so it was the evening by the time I could get to Clondalkin station (where I was told to go) and I got to the desk and had to wait over an hour to make a statement and I am being totally honest here-they clearly didn't want me to bother making a statement. That much was quite obvious. So eventually a guard comes out and wants to know if I knew the name of the guard who'd taken my initial call as "he would be the best to make the statement to" but of course I didn't know his name and I just wanted to make my bloody statement-how difficult is this for these people?!

    He begins taking my statement and after a couple of seconds he gets to my registration....an english reg as the bike had recently been imported (since registered here of course!) and he immediately lept on this and started on at me for not registering it within 24 hours (sorry pal-a car driver ran me over and drove off without stopping and left me (as far as they knew) for dead lying on the road-talk about getting your priorities wrong!). He then said in a pretty nasty tone that I must produce my insurance (as if I'd be riding around with none and then go and walk into a garda station making an issue of it!).

    So anyway.....statement made and never heard anymore about the chap who may kill some pedestrian/cyclist/motorcyclist next time but shur'n aren't the guards doing a great job and we're all way too critical of these great lads.

    Angelfire.....can you not answer my question in your own words? Do you have a problem with the public taking an interest in the guards and the level of service <ahem> they provide?


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    #120
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    markpb wrote: »
    An off duty garda is just one who doesn't have to make themselves available for duty - they are still sworn members of AGS with full powers of arrest. They have the right to detain someone while they wait for transport, a power than bouncers don't have.
    Every citizen has the power of arrest. If you see someone committing an arrestable offence (eg, robbery, not a parking violation!) then you have the legal right to use reasonable force to detain that person (if they refuse to wait voluntarily of course!) until the Gardai can be summoned. It's the same power used by store detectives when someone is seen committing theft (shoplifting) and held in store detention rooms until the Guards arrive. Go into town any day and you'll see Guards taking people off security staff. In fact-the person is technically called a prisoner whilst held by the store. It is an arrest without warrant which is actually the same type of arrest most often made by police officers (the other being an arrest made on warrant of court, far less common).

    If a publican serves Guards after hours/free drinks then ask yourself this....if you are in need of one of these guards next week at the exact same time as a call comes in from his pub/club and the guard reponds to the publican's call over yours (as a thank you), would you consider that corruption?

    I can say that I worked in a hotel bar as a teenager and the local sergeant and sidekick regularly came in for after hours (all free) and occasionaly came in ON DUTY and left unsteady on their feet and drove off in the squad car. Is this ok? My experiences can't be all that isolated and I bet it still goes on.


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    #121
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    murphaph wrote: »
    Angelfire.....can you not answer my question in your own words? Do you have a problem with the public taking an interest in the guards and the level of service <ahem> they provide?

    No, i just think i couldn't phrase my response as well as Karlitosway & Metman, i agree whole heartedly with them on this one, strictly speaking the tax payer "pays the wages" of hospital consultants, nurses, revenue & custom's officers, civil servants, teachers etc etc yet you don't hear 1% of the volume of complaints about them as you do about Gardai! Besides which as already stated Gardai pay PAYE as well so it's not really a valid argument is it? I've worked in nightclubs where I'd be asking someone to leave for being drunk or abusive or fighting etc., and they've turned around and said "you can't kick me out i pay your wages" ... go figure.. my usual response to those being removed for fighting is "Not tonight you don't, your money will be paying for those glasses you broke" or for generally drunk or abusive people "I don't get paid enough to take abuse from you"


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