9 Gardai 3 squad cars for revenge posse beats up man, 4 face dismissal

oscarBravo

Otacon wrote: »

When they are off-duty, they are citizens like everyone else.

I (and others) have already pointed out that this isn't the case.

murphaph

angelfire9 wrote: »

No, i just think i couldn't phrase my response as well as Karlitosway & Metman, i agree whole heartedly with them on this one, strictly speaking the tax payer "pays the wages" of hospital consultants, nurses, revenue & custom's officers, civil servants, teachers etc etc yet you don't hear 1% of the volume of complaints about them as you do about Gardai!

Erm, hang around this forum a bit longer and you'll see that people complain about all public services (of which the Gardai are just another branch) quite equally. I have major gripes with the inefficiences of the HSE. Revenue are one of the fairest and most professional public services (yes-tax collecting is a public service!) so I don't have any criticism for them!

angelfire9 wrote: »

Besides which as already stated Gardai pay PAYE as well so it's not really a valid argument is it?

Specious reasoning. The public sector generates no actual income for the nation therefore it cannot be considered in this manner. It is an essential part of a developed country and I am more than happy to fund it-so long as it delivers what it ought to however ALL the income our country receives comes ultimately from the private sector.

angelfire9 wrote: »

I've worked in nightclubs where I'd be asking someone to leave for being drunk or abusive or fighting etc., and they've turned around and said "you can't kick me out i pay your wages" ... go figure.. my usual response to those being removed for fighting is "Not tonight you don't, your money will be paying for those glasses you broke" or for generally drunk or abusive people "I don't get paid enough to take abuse from you"

What on earth has that got to do with open accountability of the Gardai? Do you, or do you not believe the Gardai should be open to scrutiny by the citizens of this country? Why not address my own recent experience of poor Garda service (January)? Take it apart, tell me the Gardai that day were doing a good job! They weren't acting corruptly, just bone idle lazily!

dresden8

We're forgetting the basic issue here.

The Gardai are not above the law. If you beat somebody up there are consequences.

Several people have pissed me off. If me and my mates were to go round and sort them out we would be arrested. Probably by the Gardai who beat people up themselves.

If you can't trust the Gardai to uphold the law there really is nothing left.

End of story.

FTA69

markpb wrote: »

Publicans let Gardai in free of charge because they know if there's a problem, it can be dealt with quickly. I'm sure the IRA could "deal" with it too but the difference is the Gardai will deal with the problem within the remit of the law. The IRA will not, leaving the publican open to charges of aiding and abetting.

If the gardai were doing favours for the publicans or threatening them to get free drink, I'd have a huge problem with it but the reality is it's a back scratching exercise. The publican benefits from the presence of off-duty gardai and the garda gets a few free drinks. My local doctor treats old people for next to nothing - should I be worried that they've ganged together and threatened to beat him to death with their zimmer frames if he doesn't submit to them?

What a load of nonsense, intoxicated off-duty cops are in no position to police anyone in a professional manner. The common reason why publicans let cops into premises for free is because they are afraid the Guards will cause problems for them otherwise, nothing else. The last thing any publican wants is a shower of guards in the corner, believe me.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote: »

I know lots of guards, and I've never, ever seen this happen (apart from after-hours drinking, and then I've never seen any free drink involved). Hand on heart, I can honestly say I've only ever seen one Garda ID badge.

Well I definitely have, more than once; and I'm a fair shot younger than you are as well.

Guards who abuse their position should be disciplined, but tarring them all with the same brush isn't on either.

You know my general opinions on the police, we've been arguing the toss about it intermittantly for the past 4 odd years. That having been said, I try not to tar every single policeman or woman as the same, I've had many, many dealings with the police in a variety of contexts; some experiences have involved them threatening to raid my sick grandmother's house, others have involved them smacking me around the head; then again others have involved guards trying their best to help me with certain matters. I know full well that there is good and bad within everything.

In this particular case I'm not trying to tar anyone with a brush, I'm simply pointing out the reality that some guards are locally abusive and corrupt. The original topic involves a fight between some youngfella and a policeman, I only hypothesised that it was probably a case of two drunk people fighting on the street. The only brushes being waved are by those who seek to portray every Guard as a selfless pillar society when the reality is that at least some of them are the complete opposite.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote: »

Well I definitely have, more than once; and I'm a fair shot younger than you are as well.

Ageist.

Liam Byrne

Otacon wrote: »

Off-duty Gardai are let in due to
(1.)innocent reasons (knowing the club owner and being friends etc) or
(2.)dubious reasons (allowing a Garda into a club for preferential treatment is not on, neither is a Garda intimidating the owner to be allowed in)

You forgot (3.) If there's a Garda clientele, scumbags might think twice about coming in, so the Garda(i) might be more than welcome.

I've seen one or two Gardai take the mick re after-hours drinking (fine if they want a drink and not if they don't) but there's an underlying current to this thread that seems to want to cast doubt on Gardai.....

I don't like that; like every profession, there are a few rare bad eggs, but the rest of them are doing a thankless job attempting to put the scumbags off the streets only for the courts and do-gooders to either leave them back out or to put them in cushy cells with PlayStations and Plasma TVs..... :mad:

nhughes100

angelfire9 wrote: »

strictly speaking the tax payer "pays the wages" of hospital consultants, nurses, revenue & custom's officers, civil servants, teachers etc etc yet you don't hear 1% of the volume of complaints about them as you do about Gardai! Besides which as already stated Gardai pay PAYE as well so it's not really a valid argument is it?

The Garda Ombudsman received 2084 complaints last year, using your "Math" the rest of the public service would have received about 20 complaints between them?

Thats over 2000 complaints from a 12,000 strong force or 1/6th in old money. Pretty staggering.

Politicians pay PAYE as well, should we stop getting on their backs too?

oscarBravo

A certain amount of caution is needed when using the level of complaints as a metric for quality: it's inevitable that a (possibly substantial) percentage of complaints are invented as a way to get back at, or try to make life difficult for, the force.

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote: »

A certain amount of caution is needed when using the level of complaints as a metric for quality: it's inevitable that a (possibly substantial) percentage of complaints are invented as a way to get back at, or try to make life difficult for, the force.

true, but then there are folks like me who have been deeply dissatisfied with the level of service received by AGS but didn't make a formal complaint.

Liam Byrne

nhughes100 wrote: »

The Garda Ombudsman received 2084 complaints last year, using your "Math" the rest of the public service would have received about 20 complaints between them?

Thats over 2000 complaints from a 12,000 strong force or 1/6th in old money. Pretty staggering.

Politicians pay PAYE as well, should we stop getting on their backs too?

Breakdown, please ? e.g.

1) Were there 2,000 complaints by individual & unrelated members of the public ?
2) Were there 20 complaints each made by 100 individuals ?
3) Were there 40 complaints each made about 50 individual bad-egg Gardai ?

"2,000 complaints" is way too vague....think "there were 2,000 phone calls to Joe Duffy" last month and you'll get my drift.....Denis in Drumcondra can have a chip on his shoulder about everything, free calls from eircom, and way too much time on his hands, or there could be a single serious issue that 2,000 normal individual people rang in about.

nhughes100

You can checkout the report on the Garda Ombusmans website. It's freely available.

My point was that to say that the Gardai get the vast vast majority of complaints from the public was inaccurate.

angelfire9

nhughes100 wrote: »

The Garda Ombudsman received 2084 complaints last year, using your "Math" the rest of the public service would have received about 20 complaints between them?

Thats over 2000 complaints from a 12,000 strong force or 1/6th in old money. Pretty staggering.

Politicians pay PAYE as well, should we stop getting on their backs too?

Not being smart but there is something funny about their statistics, of 2084 complaints recieved 556 were held to be inadmissable, 952 admissable what happened the other 576?
Of the 952 admissable complaints only 5 files were sent to the DPP, and "In the period under review, GSOC decided to open one investigation in the public interest, under section 102(4) of the Act" source: http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/GSOC/GSOC-Annual-Report-2007.pdf

Which kinda puts your statistics in a different light!

952 valid complaints for a force of 15,206 (as of 24/04/2008) is approximately 1/16th not 1/6th! That is a big difference

nhughes100 wrote: »

You can checkout the report on the Garda Ombusmans website. It's freely available.
My point was that to say that the Gardai get the vast vast majority of complaints from the public was inaccurate.

Can you direct us to a source of this info regarding complaints made to civil service / dole offices / revenue commissioners / nurses / consultant doctors etc? (just so we can actually compare like with like?)

nhughes100

Dont forget that's only over a 9 month period, So if we take the 952 compaints that would leave 9 complaints using your stats for the entirity of the public/civil service. I'm sure the CSO could help you out in case you still think the Gardai bear the brunt of public complaints. But I'd say the HSE alone would easily overtake the Gardai in terms of complaints.

Your 1% argument simply does not stand up.

Lets not forget the ASGI and GRA both opposed the formation of the Garda Ombudsman.

lostexpectation

people who keep saying most gardai complaints are spurious, are just defending the gardai 'i can assault anyone i like attitude' they don't really care about justice

murphaph

nhughes100 wrote: »

Lets not forget the ASGI and GRA both opposed the formation of the Garda Ombudsman.

There's something sinister in that.

oscarBravo

lostexpectation wrote: »

people who keep saying most gardai complaints are spurious, are just defending the gardai 'i can assault anyone i like attitude' they don't really care about justice

Ah, sweeping generalisations - how much they add to a debate.

Not.

RuailleBuaille

nhughes100 wrote: »

Very believable and the tip of the iceberg imo.

I beleve every single word.
You may think I'm naive but growing up where I did I quickly learned the Gardai are a law unto themselves and that they think nothing of kicking the bollox out of whoever pisses 'em off.
Whether or not they used squad cars or were wearing uniform, I'm pretty sure that bloke was 'dealt with'.

FTA69

It is also worth mentioning that many people don't bother makign complaints because it usually comes back to bite them in the ass. One case I've seen a number of times is that when someone makes a complaint about Garda assault they will then charge that person with the same, then they will offer to drop that charge if the person doesn't pursue the matter.

Getting slapped about by Guards is not a rare occurrence in working class communities, people don't simply make grievances up out of thin air. Neither does the fact they may be "scummers from Darndale/insert derogatory term" mean their sentiments should be dismissed out of hand.

angelfire9

And what about the numerous complaints made by people who don't have a genuine grievance and are just doing it to cause hassle for specific guards? That happens alot more than you might think or do we totally and conveniently forget about that aspect of it and keep the Garda bashing going?

murphaph

angelfire9 wrote: »

And what about the numerous complaints made by people who don't have a genuine grievance and are just doing it to cause hassle for specific guards? That happens alot more than you might think or do we totally and conveniently forget about that aspect of it and keep the Garda bashing going?

If you're allowed to defend them, we're allowed to 'bash' them as you call it. Democracy is good, isn't it?

To be honest, the idea that complants about guards makes life hard for them is hard to swallow given how few guards have ever actually been dismissed for inappropriate behaviour!

CLADA

nhughes100 wrote: »

Lets not forget the ASGI and GRA both opposed the formation of the Garda Ombudsman.

Incorrect, both associations have advocated an independent commission to investigate complaints against Gardai for a number of years.

Collie D

I don't believe all Guards are corrupt but I will give you a personal example.

In the wrong place at the wrong time when I was 17. Big fight outside the local, went up to make sure my younger brother was OK. Got there and all hell was breaking loose. I was arrested and when I complained on the way to the station, the driver pulled over the car and gave me a good hiding.

When I went to make a formal complaint with my mother, she was threatened and both of us were told to get the f*ck out of the station before we were put in the cells. When we called again on phone we asked to be put through to someone in charge whose reply was simply "**** off" and hung up.

Since then, I no longer trust the Guards. I appreciate the job they do but I think they should remember that they don't have the right to do whatever they feel like.

I'm not tarring them all with the same brush but neither can I accept that they are all fine men/women doing a fine job.

nhughes100

CLADA wrote: »

Incorrect, both associations have advocated an independent commission to investigate complaints against Gardai for a number of years.

Their version of an independant investigating commission and what the Garda ombudsman does are two very different things. I quite clearly remember PJ Stone coming on radio several times to oppose the searching powers of the Garda ombudsman office.

Liam Byrne

lostexpectation wrote: »

people who keep saying most gardai complaints are spurious, are just defending the gardai 'i can assault anyone i like attitude' they don't really care about justice

I've a problem with that statement.

Firstly, you're throwing in the opinion that there's a general "i can assault anyone I like attitude" (unproven) and secondly you're attributing another opinion to people who just don't like sweeping generalisations, saying that "they don't really care about justice".

It's ironic, really, because people who DO care about justice are generally the very ones who hate sweeping generalisations....

Yes, there are some bad eggs (just like in every profession) and these SHOULD be weeded out, but saying there's a general attitude and that most gardai are dodgy is pretty unfair, IMHO.....

bartholomewbinn

Collie D wrote: »

I don't believe all Guards are corrupt but I will give you a personal example.

In the wrong place at the wrong time when I was 17. Big fight outside the local, went up to make sure my younger brother was OK. Got there and all hell was breaking loose. I was arrested and when I complained on the way to the station, the driver pulled over the car and gave me a good hiding.

When I went to make a formal complaint with my mother, she was threatened and both of us were told to get the f*ck out of the station before we were put in the cells. When we called again on phone we asked to be put through to someone in charge whose reply was simply "**** off" and hung up.

Since then, I no longer trust the Guards. I appreciate the job they do but I think they should remember that they don't have the right to do whatever they feel like.

I'm not tarring them all with the same brush but neither can I accept that they are all fine men/women doing a fine job.

The big mistake your mother made was not having a solicitor with you both when you went to make a complaint. The ignorant guard she was dealing with was a bully and he took advantage of her vulnerability. ALWAYS have a solicitor with you when you go to make a complaint. Guards in general, but cowboy guards in particular are wary of solicitors.

CLADA

nhughes100 wrote: »

Their version of an independant investigating commission and what the Garda ombudsman does are two very different things. I quite clearly remember PJ Stone coming on radio several times to oppose the searching powers of the Garda ombudsman office.

I suppose they may have had concerns as to how GSOC would operate.

For example, one of the three commissioners arrives into Dublin Coroners Court at the end of a week long inquest into the Lusk incident while the jury are considering their verdict, announces that he is seeking an adjournment to deal with a complaint that had just come to his attention that morning.

Was it:

(1) Abuse of power ?
(2) Media headline seeker?
or
(3) Pure coincidence?

TheNog

Collie D wrote: »

I'm not tarring them all with the same brush but neither can I accept that they are all fine men/women doing a fine job.

I think both sides of this debate can agree with this statement.

nhughes100

Interesting article in the newspapers today, Egyptian Poker Dealer in court over alledged hitman trial.

Looks like the Gardai aren't the only ones who's occupation makes headlines as Angelfire incorrectly assumes. Them poor poker dealers being abused by the media only to sell newspapers.

lostexpectation

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I've a problem with that statement.

Firstly, you're throwing in the opinion that there's a general "i can assault anyone I like attitude" (unproven) and secondly you're attributing another opinion to people who just don't like sweeping generalisations, saying that "they don't really care about justice".

It's ironic, really, because people who DO care about justice are generally the very ones who hate sweeping generalisations....

Yes, there are some bad eggs (just like in every profession) and these SHOULD be weeded out, but saying there's a general attitude and that most gardai are dodgy is pretty unfair, IMHO.....

"i can assault anyone I like " is a direct quote from a garda


but its comes the same people like jim cuasck and some of the posters here who say other things like 'sure they probably deserved a kicking' its not generalisation of the keep coming up with these sort of comments.