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9 Gardai 3 squad cars for revenge posse beats up man, 4 face dismissal
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while i really dont want to get into this thread i have to point out that of the 3 guys that left my job to become gardai NONE of em did it because theyre interested in justice.
they wanted a secure job that pays well. keep your nose clean and being a gardai is a job for life. pretty valuable in a coming recession.0 -
You heard one Garda saying it, but it's not a sweeping generalisation?
O...kay...0 -
nhughes100 wrote: »Interesting article in the newspapers today, Egyptian Poker Dealer in court over alledged hitman trial.
Looks like the Gardai aren't the only ones who's occupation makes headlines as Angelfire incorrectly assumes. Them poor poker dealers being abused by the media only to sell newspapers.
As per usual comments being made on one side of this argument are twisted by the other side to make a not so smart comment.
I made the observation that a Garda's occupation is always found relevant by the media no matter how or what the Garda in question is doing, as was proven by the tragedy which was the case of Sgt. Corcoran
However, in the case which Nigel refers to, Sharon Collins an Ennis native is accused of hiring Essam Eid to kill her partner PJ Howard, a well known local businessman and his two sons with the intention of inheriting Mr. Howard's not unsubstantial assets. Mr. Eid's "occupation" is relevant in this case because he told Gardai when he was arrested that he was simply a "Poker Dealer" over from Vegas on holidays and that he was not a killer. This was after Mr. Eid had approached the Howard brothers and allegedly demanded money off them so that he wouldn't kill them!
Furthermore the State will argue in this case that Mr. Eid was not only a professional hitman, operating from a website "hitmanforhire.com" but furthermore he has absolutely no experience in Vegas as a Poker Dealer
This argument justifies the use of his "occupation" in any media reports.
You maybe picked a bad example here Nigel cos it's very much a local story where i live!0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »I've a problem with that statement.
Firstly, you're throwing in the opinion that there's a general "i can assault anyone I like attitude" (unproven) and secondly you're attributing another opinion to people who just don't like sweeping generalisations, saying that "they don't really care about justice".
Hmmm. But can you "prove" that there is an "I can't assault anyone I like attitude"? See what's happening?It's ironic, really, because people who DO care about justice are generally the very ones who hate sweeping generalisations....
You are countering one so-called sweeping generalisation with another. Perhaps there's irony here alright, but maybe not in the sense you intended. And what do you mean by "justice"? Law? I ask because they clearly aren't interchangeable. I'd argue they rarely are.Yes, there are some bad eggs and these SHOULD be weeded out, but saying there's a general attitude and that most gardai are dodgy is pretty unfair, IMHO.....
Yet another one of those "sweeping generalisations": "(just like in every profession)." How do you know, exactly? The point being that sweeping generalisations--anecdotal/personal experiences extrapolated to a general rule of thumb--are used frequently (and unavoidably) by both sides of the argument. Arguing about who uses them seems pointless--they are a fundamental component in forming concepts.
Besides, a so-called "bad egg" is made possible and sustained by the larger culture/system/ethos in which it is embedded. A "bad egg" has friends, colleagues, supervisors, etc., all of which are required for it to stay rotten. The larger organization is thus implicated in the case of every "bad egg."
One might also wonder what is occurring when the odd "bad egg" is scapegoated. It seems designed to restore an outsider's faith in the system; scapegoating doesn't seem to ever "fix" the system because "bad eggs" keep on popping up.
All of this is especially problematic when a body that is given the specific privilege of exercising certain powers to uphold standards of law and justice--the use of force, the ability to detain, etc., etc.--uses those powers (or hides behind them) to violate those very standards.0 -
To be honest, the idea that complants about guards makes life hard for them is hard to swallow given how few guards have ever actually been dismissed for inappropriate behaviour!
You cannot make the assumption that a guard who has a complaint against him/her would not suffer any type of worry throughout the investigation. How could you not worry about potentially being fined 2 weeks wages or at worst facing dismissal and/or criminal proceedings?
I know of one colleague who had a complaint against him purely because the complainant chose to ignore the proper procedures of investigation that were explained to them. Although my colleague firmly believed he was in the right, he was under a certain amount of stress due to the complaint and the length of time it took to complete the investigation.
As for the number of members who have not been dismissed in the past for inappropriate behaviour, not all inappropriate behaviour is a sackable offence. Some can be dealt with way of a fine and/or counselling. In the past as we all know complaints were handled and investigated differently through the Garda Complaints Board and the AGS with very limited powers. It was evident that dismissing a member of the AGS was extremely difficult but was the fault of the AGS? I don't think so as it was a statute based limitation that provided this obstacle.
The Garda Ombudsman has even greater power of investigation and more importantly is independent. The option of dismissal is easier to achieve and is seen a means to an end, that is to provide more accountability on our part for the service we provide to the public.0 -
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how many of the gardaí*involved in ALL the events in Donegal/Freddie Morris were fired?
What about the ones who framed people for the "Murder" of Ritchie Barron?
was that behaviour inapropriate enough to warrant dismissal?
What about this
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/three-settle-court-actions-over-garda-beatings-claim-1357670.html
or the case where two sisters were thrown in th back of a paddywagon on grafton st, beaten and abused, Graine and Ciara Walshe
brian rossitter,
the gardai who perjured themselves in the trial of a suspect in an omagh bombing case
or gardai parking on the footpath outside pearse st station forcing people on crutches and mothers with prams onto the road where double decker busses trundle past.0 -
angelfire9 wrote: »Furthermore the State will argue in this case that Mr. Eid was not only a professional hitman, operating from a website "hitmanforhire.com" but furthermore he has absolutely no experience in Vegas as a Poker Dealer
This argument justifies the use of his "occupation" in any media reports.
That is brilliant. Its like Monty Phython. The website doesnt even exist. I cant wait to see it brought up in court.0 -
Thanks for your post. I believe you are the type of Guard we need more of to be honest. I think the Guards need a culture change-BUT I don't expect them to be pansies in the face of abuse or anything like that. I wish the Guards well but feel far too many members are in it for reasons other than the most important one-serving this country's citizens. I don't expect Guards to kiss my @rse because I'm a taxpayer but I do expect to be dealt with the way the charter (which hangs in Garda Station public offices) outlines and in my dealings so far I find the service falls far short of the charter.You cannot make the assumption that a guard who has a complaint against him/her would not suffer any type of worry throughout the investigation. How could you not worry about potentially being fined 2 weeks wages or at worst facing dismissal and/or criminal proceedings?
I know of one colleague who had a complaint against him purely because the complainant chose to ignore the proper procedures of investigation that were explained to them. Although my colleague firmly believed he was in the right, he was under a certain amount of stress due to the complaint and the length of time it took to complete the investigation.
As for the number of members who have not been dismissed in the past for inappropriate behaviour, not all inappropriate behaviour is a sackable offence. Some can be dealt with way of a fine and/or counselling. In the past as we all know complaints were handled and investigated differently through the Garda Complaints Board and the AGS with very limited powers. It was evident that dismissing a member of the AGS was extremely difficult but was the fault of the AGS? I don't think so as it was a statute based limitation that provided this obstacle.
The Garda Ombudsman has even greater power of investigation and more importantly is independent. The option of dismissal is easier to achieve and is seen a means to an end, that is to provide more accountability on our part for the service we provide to the public.
I think more should be done to encourage dubs to join and they should work in Dublin stations. I find 'country' Garda are sort of out of touch with Dublin's problems. This happens in Munich too funnily enough, all the cops are from rural Bavaria and they all trundle back to the country for their days off from the big smoke. It breeds contempt amongst the locals.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »how many of the gardaí*involved in ALL the events in Donegal/Freddie Morris were fired?
What about the ones who framed people for the "Murder" of Ritchie Barron?
was that behaviour inapropriate enough to warrant dismissal?
What about this
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/three-settle-court-actions-over-garda-beatings-claim-1357670.html
or the case where two sisters were thrown in th back of a paddywagon on grafton st, beaten and abused, Graine and Ciara Walshe
Fair enough alot of the improper action here did warrant a dismissal but we have to remember that these occured during the old discipline system. The new system in place is bedding in now and we will hopefully see better results in the near future.Carawaystick wrote: »brian rossitter,
As far as I'm aware there is no direct evidence that Rossiter's death was the rresult of Garda involvement. There is a question of the abrasion on the side of his face but tbh this could have happened if he resisted arrest. Also 2 other teenagers already in cells claim he could have been assaulted in the cell but again alot of people arrested for public order scream, kick and fight when brought to the cells. You would not believe the strenght of a person who does not want to be arrested.Carawaystick wrote: »the gardai who perjured themselves in the trial of a suspect in an omagh
bombing case
I could only find this report where it was PSNI officers who beefed up their evidence, no Garda involvement here.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1220/breaking62.html?via=meCarawaystick wrote: »gardai parking on the footpath outside pearse st station forcing people on crutches and mothers with prams onto the road where double decker busses trundle past.
how is this the fault of the gardai? This is a problem for the OPW and the Dept of Justice to assign adequate parking for Garda vehicles. These are first responder vehicles and do need to kept as near to Gardai assigned to them for that job. Would you think that parking an ambulance or fire engine a good distance from their respective stations would be a good idea?
Anyway if these people on crutches and mothers with prams are so concerned for their safety and if memory serves me correctly, it is a short walk to go around the back of the station to reach the other side.0 -
That is brilliant. Its like Monty Phython. The website doesnt even exist. I cant wait to see it brought up in court.
Looking up hitmanforhire.com for a hitman is an insult to Monty Python. But that sitename has expired or been deleted - linky, which implies it must have existed at some time, or at least someone booked the domain name.0 -
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Hmmm. But can you "prove" that there is an "I can't assault anyone I like attitude"? See what's happening?
You are countering one so-called sweeping generalisation with another. Perhaps there's irony here alright, but maybe not in the sense you intended.
The word "sweeping" is the key one here......if someone's being realistic, then they'd have to acknowledge the possibility that there are bad eggs in every walk of society.
Generalisations are, as you say, part and parcel of any discussion/argument/statistic. "Sweeping" generalisations, on the other hand - where EVERYONE in a demographic is tarred with the one brush - are lazy, prejudiced and have no place in a discussion.
Despite the attempted point that you were making, your post listed the polar opposite of what I posted, and therefore was not a valid example.
We're not talking "it's raining" or "it's not" here.
If some says "everyone in that crowd is black", the opposite of that is not "everyone in that crowd is white"....all you need in theory to disprove the original statement is to find ONE SINGLE exception.
Saying that there's a "general attitude" in the Gardai is more of a grey area, and we could argue the percentages required for something to be a general accepted attitude (could it be if 20%, 30%, 40% accept it or turn a blind eye to it) but having an assumption of a general attitude based on ONE SINGLE QUOTE BY A GARDA is completely wrong.
The issue I have with the post that I was questioning is that the single quote from a Garda was used as the basis to claim that there was a general attitude of "I can assault anyone I like".
Some people might have the view that a "general" attitude problem would apply if there was 50% who accepted/overlooked corruption....but let's assume for a second that even 5% of the total reflects a "general" attitude problem.....therefore the poster would need to quote 599 more Gardai reflecting similar attitudes; I might then accept that there may be a case to prove, but one quoted out of twelve thousand ??? Come on!
I mean, if I came on here and said that "all travellers/immigrants/Dubs/Celtic supporters/whatever" are scumbags and criminals, based on my experience with ONE, I'd be - rightly - shot down.
If, on the other hand, I had first-hand experience of 600 of them that were....then I could at least be forgiven for forming that opinion.0 -
Fair enough alot of the improper action here did warrant a dismissal but we have to remember that these occured during the old discipline system. The new system in place is bedding in now and we will hopefully see better results in the near future.
As far as I'm aware there is no direct evidence that Rossiter's death was the rresult of Garda involvement. There is a question of the abrasion on the side of his face but tbh this could have happened if he resisted arrest. Also 2 other teenagers already in cells claim he could have been assaulted in the cell but again alot of people arrested for public order scream, kick and fight when brought to the cells. You would not believe the strenght of a person who does not want to be arrested.
I could only find this report where it was PSNI officers who beefed up their evidence, no Garda involvement here.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1220/breaking62.html?via=me
how is this the fault of the gardai? This is a problem for the OPW and the Dept of Justice to assign adequate parking for Garda vehicles. These are first responder vehicles and do need to kept as near to Gardai assigned to them for that job. Would you think that parking an ambulance or fire engine a good distance from their respective stations would be a good idea?
Anyway if these people on crutches and mothers with prams are so concerned for their safety and if memory serves me correctly, it is a short walk to go around the back of the station to reach the other side.
Brian Rossiter was unlawfully detained
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0411/breaking52.htm
If I unlawfully detained someone, I could be charged with false imprisonment, a charge that on conviction caries up to Life imprisonment
Colm Murphy trial
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4193307.stm
My point about the poor parking on Townsend st was the complete lack of consideration for any body else as reinforced in your post. At the point on townsend st this bad parking occurred, the street is about 50 feet wide, from kerb to kerb. the footpath is about 3.5 feet wide. Gardaí*park their private or unmarked garda cars on the footpath, blocking pedestrians, when they could easily park entirely on the double yellow lines and not park on the path. they would not block busses, cars or other traffic on the street by not parking on the road.
your last sentence is pretty revealing. Do you think it is reasonable to expect handicapped people and people with reduced mobility to go way out of their way to allow lazy gardaí park inconsiderately?
Blaming the OPW for gardaí's bad parking?
lest you think I'm all against the gardaí, I've been very impressed with them on occasion. of the top of my head the body in the suitcase case was top notch police work. to secure a conviction against the killers was amazing, considering the original evidence.
facing down the rioters on the day of the love ulster march when coming under petrol bomb attack was extremely brave,
work done abroad in former yugoslavia is especially unsung,
these are all really excellent pieces of work done, and probably coud not be done all day every day, by any police force anywhere.
i think most of the posters on this thread expressing their dissatisfaction with the Gardaí just want a better police force. Garda are best placed to provide that and don't appear to be doing it. yet.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »Brian Rossiter was unlawfully detained
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0411/breaking52.htm
If I unlawfully detained someone, I could be charged with false imprisonment, a charge that on conviction caries up to Life imprisonment
Regulations about detaining people in Garda Stations has been tightened up significantly since 2002 when Brian Rossiter was in Clonmel GS. If a child (under 18) is brought to a station the parents or guardian are notified immediately and the child is not kept in a cell but in a room where they can be kept on eye on. They are realised into the custody of their parents/guardian when prudent to do so. Any more incidents such as this should never happen again.
Do you remember years ago when children who misbehaved were brought to the Garda Station by the parent in the hope that the experience could frighten the child into behaving more appropriately? I imagine this was one of those occasions which went terribly wrong not to mention illegal too.Carawaystick wrote: »
Again this incident occured in 2002 when if memory serves me correctly electronic recording of an interview was not in place. Every prisoner who is interviewed or even making a cautioned statement must be recorded throughout the process otherwise the statement and any admissions is and can be inadmissable in court.Carawaystick wrote: »
My point about the poor parking on Townsend st was the complete lack of consideration for any body else as reinforced in your post. At the point on townsend st this bad parking occurred, the street is about 50 feet wide, from kerb to kerb. the footpath is about 3.5 feet wide. Gardaí*park their private or unmarked garda cars on the footpath, blocking pedestrians, when they could easily park entirely on the double yellow lines and not park on the path. they would not block busses, cars or other traffic on the street by not parking on the road.
Pearse St station is an extremely busy station with cars coming and going at all times of day and night. So do you not think that parking on the footpath was the only space available when parking on the lines was already taken up?
You are also presuming that some of the cars are private cars. It would be an easy assumption to make when you see a MH or C or WH reg car parked there. Could these cars belong to members of the public who are inside the station or these could be unmarked cars of the AGS. AGS have in the past used registration numbers from around the country and even foreign registered cars too. About 10 yrs ago I saw a NI or GB reg car with blue lights on the M7 outside Newbridge with a Garda standing beside it. I don;t work in Dublin so personally I couldn't say if these cars to belong to members or not and neither could you.Carawaystick wrote: »your last sentence is pretty revealing. Do you think it is reasonable to expect handicapped people and people with reduced mobility to go way out of their way to allow lazy gardaí park inconsiderately?
Blaming the OPW for gardaí's bad parking?
No I don;t think it reasonable for people with reduced mobility to have to go the long way around nor do I think it is reasonable for marked and unmarked cars to parked on double yellow lines and/or on the footpath. It creates a poor impression of the Gardai when people see this carry on and I think you are one of them however I think that your complaint here is misguided and that is why I mentioned the OPW. It is up to the Dept of Justice and the OPW to supply the AGS with the proper accomodation to carry out our work and that includes parking not only for the gardai within the station but also for the public too who come into the station. Unfortunately the members working in Pearse St have to work within a bad situation as do many other members throughout the country.0 -
lostexpectation wrote: »http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=Tribune/News/Home%20News&id=87390&SUBCAT=Tribune/News
original news report
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/four-gardai-suspended-after-alleged-assault-of-19yearold-1298016.html
this sounds a total outside of duties revenge posse, more judge dredd policing from the gardai.
how many gardai and cars would there be in one of the those city centre stations?
we have to wait to see if anyone actually does get fired. coming after the settlement with the 3 other people assaulted by pearse station guards.
would you feel safe around any gardai.
There is only word to describe the actions of these Gardai.....HEROS!!!
Dead Right i say.0 -
I have trouble believing that 8 Gardai would all be stupid enough to jump into squad cars and go there and forcibly enter the home and beat the guy up - especially if the Garda who'd been fighting was out drinking. It just doesn't fly. If they were going to do that, they would have organised something outside of working hours and in anonymous vehicles.
As some involved were trainees, as far as I recall, yes, I've no problem believing it at all. I though there was less than 8 involved, however. What I never understood was why the individual in the house wasn't arrested over the altercation with the Garda, if it was sufficient to warrant the "house call".0 -
ARISE ZOMBIE THREAD!0
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DIE ZOMBIE THREAD DAI!0
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Don't blame me. The guy on the previous page dug it up....0
This discussion has been closed.
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