Why do people lose faith?

Soul Winner

RealEstateKing wrote: »

You know the way you as a Christian feel when you see Ganesh the elephant God? You think "Oh come on, yis must be having a laugh!"

Try applying the same sceptical rigour to your own and you'll find he falls apart quite quickly.

I for one never expressed any opinion in regards to another religion on this forum unless I was specifically asked to do so by a poster. My opinion of other religions is irrelevant to this discussion. How do you know I don't have the utmost respect for those who believe in Ganesh? You don't, so stop trying to hoodwink irrelevancies into this discussion in order to support your position. And if you want to know I have applied much scepticism to my beliefs over the years. No religion in the world is subject to as much of it as Christianity and it is still standing. Must have something going for it. One of the reasons I come in here is to have my beliefs challenged. I can find now better method to test your beliefs than to try and find out the answers to the questions genuine doubters and sceptics have. I think Depeche Mode asks the best questions. He has me stumped on a few I'm checking out at the moment, but nothing that will make me lose my faith, just some things are hard to get to the bottom of. I think all beliefs should be tested to the max. If they are really based on genuine truth then they will stand up to it. If God exists then He is not afraid of truth. He is truth.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

What alternative would you suggest?

Not torturing people for all eternity. its really quite simple.

Yes I see where your coming from, in human terms. But you don't understand sin. You don't understand what it means to offend an infinitely Holy God, who created you to be like Him.

poor god. I feel so sorry for him. I finally understand, yes, yes he is totally justified in burning me for all of eternity in a lake of fire just because I don't accept the extremely unconvincing evidence that he has given us for his own existence.

His plan for all of us it to become like Him and share in His divinity and you want to reject that?!?! Remember we are supposed to be temples of the Holy Spirit and grave sin causes the Spirit to leave.

God created it that way, he is responsible for everything, he can only blame himself. (but he doesn't, he tortures humans for all eternity for his own mistakes, very very petty)

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

I for one never expressed any opinion in regards to another religion on this forum unless I was specifically asked to do so by a poster. My opinion of other religions is irrelevant to this discussion. How do you know I don't have the utmost respect for those who believe in Ganesh? You don't, so stop trying to hoodwink irrelevancies into this discussion in order to support your position. And if you want to know I have applied much scepticism to my beliefs over the years. No religion in the world is subject to as much of it as Christianity and it is still standing. Must have something going for it. One of the reasons I come in here is to have my beliefs challenged. I can find now better method to test your beliefs than to try and find out the answers to the questions genuine doubters and sceptics have. I think Depeche Mode asks the best questions. He has me stumped on a few I'm checking out at the moment, but nothing that will make me lose my faith, just some things are hard to get to the bottom of. I think all beliefs should be tested to the max. If they are really based on genuine truth then they will stand up to it. If God exists then He is not afraid of truth. He is truth.

Do you believe there is any evidence or any information at all that would cause you to lose your faith?

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

Not torturing people for all eternity. its really quite simple.

poor god. I feel so sorry for him. I finally understand, yes, yes he is totally justified in burning me for all of eternity in a lake of fire just because I don't accept the extremely unconvincing evidence that he has given us for his own existence.

God created it that way, he is responsible for everything, he can only blame himself. (but he doesn't, he tortures humans for all eternity for his own mistakes, very very petty)

You'll get what you deserve. Only the perfectly pure can exist in God's presence and exclusion from God's presence is Hell. You will certainly understand this when you die. A person in a state of mortal would rather go to Hell that Heaven because darkness cannot tolerate light as scripture says. Ugliness detests beauty.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

You'll get what you deserve. Only the perfectly pure can exist in God's presence and exclusion from God's presence is Hell. You will certainly understand this when you die. A person in a state of mortal would rather go to Hell that Heaven because darkness cannot tolerate light as scripture says. Ugliness detests beauty.

Its not a preference or a choice. I do not believe either of them exist.

If you suspect your wife of cheating on you and you find love letters to her from another man hidden in a dresser, you might 'want' to believe there is another explanation, but wanting to believe something does not mean you should believe something. The consequences of not believing her could mean the end of your marriage, but the consequences of believing her even though she is lying could mean your wife loses respect for you and treats you like a fool for the rest of your life.

Your wife might feel hurt that you don't believe her explanation (that she's, um, secretly writing a novel and this is part of her research) but it's certainly not your fault if you can't bring yourself to accept it.

The evidence for the Christian god is very flimsy and I don't believe it. I could pretend to believe it but some Christians consider this to be just as bad if not worse than non belief. 'Forcing' myself to believe something that I don't really believe would probably result in a mental breakdown sooner or later.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

The evidence for the Christian god is very flimsy and I don't believe it. I could pretend to believe it but some Christians consider this to be just as bad if not worse than non belief. 'Forcing' myself to believe something that I don't really believe would probably result in a mental breakdown sooner or later.

Luke 11:9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

That is Jesus' promise to you. I strongly recommend that you read some biographies of the saints for ideas as to just how much God can act in a person's life.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

If I have a child, I am the originator of that child (or half of it anyway) but I do not own the child, nor do I have complete control over what it does or what happens to it.

You don't produce children you re-produce them. There is a difference. There are two words in the Hebrew for create. On is used to create something out of something already created and the other is to create from nothing at all. Can you create in the sense of the latter? Can you choose the design of your child. Can you choose the eye colour. You are not in control at all. If God exists then He is the true originator and owner and therefore has the right to do whatever He pleases with what He originates and the thing which He originates can decide that it doesn't like what the originator is doing but it is not the one with the power to do anything about is it?

Akrasia wrote: »

Simply creating something says nothing about the ability to control it afterwards. 'God' might have set off a chain reaction billions of years ago without the ability to control what happens afterwards.

I believe this universe was created and is ordered and maintained by God’s Word. How? I don’t know.

Akrasia wrote: »

Seeing as you're using gardening as an analogy, what do you do with the vegetables or fruits in that garden when they're ripe? Thats right, you eat them. You certainly don't 'reward' them for managing to grow into fruits and vegetables.

No but you do still throw out the garbage. Now to a gardener the garbage is defined by that which has no good use to him. To God He has defined what is no good to Him and that is those with no faith in Him. And as He is the originator then He can choose that to be the garbage if He so pleases. You might not like that kind of God but I don't see Him checking opinion polls about it.

Akrasia wrote: »

But he is subject to some laws. Even Christians admit that God cannot contradict itself and some christians say God cannot lie. Who made these 'laws'?

The 'cannot lie' attribute of Gods is just that, an attribute. It is not that He is not allowed to lie. He just isn't a liar. If He were a liar then there would be no basis for faith. But anyone who has taken the time to practice faith in His word knows that He is faithful to it. There are just some things you cannot know until you have tried them out. God wants the attitude that Job eventually got. "Though He slay me yet will I trust Him." I’m not there yet but I, like Paul, press towards the mark.

Akrasia wrote: »

Is there another god that has authority over this one? the truth god?
Of course not. Christians want to believe that god cannot lie because if he could, then it would be a massive blow to their entire belief system (if god can lie, then its entirely possible that he lied about the whole afterlife thing)

That is very true. If God could be found out to be a liar then yes there would be no basis for faith in Him. Is this yet another argument form silence or can you prove this to be the case? Have you found an instance where you know God was lying about something? Let us have it and be done with this discussion.

Akrasia wrote: »

There is absolutely no basis for Christians to believe that God is telling the truth. (even leaving aside the multiple separations the information has to pass through between scripture and the source of that scripture where humans could have lied or made mistakes)

Well assuming He exists at all then He has revealed two ways in which we can operate. 1. To trust in what we see rather than in what He says. or 2. To trust what He says. If you ever take the time to study Gods Word you will notice a pattern of faithfulness from beginning to end in His word, especially with regards to the promises He made to Abraham. That through His seed the whole world would be blessed. Christ came from the seed of Abraham and through Him the whole world is blessed because He died for the whole world and the whole world’s sins are forgiven. The only reason why some have not forgiveness of sins is because they reject this provision of Christ. That's their prerogative. If they want forgiveness then accept that they are forgiven through Him. That they don't, results in them staying in their sins.

Akrasia wrote: »

Its not about laws, its about right and wrong. Some things are always wrong no matter who does them or what the law says. It is inherently wrong to rape a child. It is inherently wrong to torture something for your own pleasure. Even if God did these things, they would still be wrong.

In some countries it is wrong to behead people yet in others it is ok. Depends on the culture. There is no universal definition of sin. If there is an originator then what that originator says is wrong, is wrong. Not what the product of that originator thinks should be wrong. Rape might be wrong but it is not wrong because you said it is.

Akrasia wrote: »

Jesus is said to have died without ever committing a sin. That was in human terms, not godly 'he can do anything he likes' terms. If Jesus went around murdering and raping people, would you still think he died without sin? (according to your logic that everything god does by definition must be right)

The Bible points out that God emptied Himself and took upon Himself the likeness of sinning flesh. Jesus Christ was the servant of God the Father. He said my meat is to do the will of the Father who sent me. He was constrained down a particular path that only He could go. When He prayed in the garden “if it be possible let this cup pass from me never the less not my will be done but thine" that was a further emptying. The scripture says that He was obedient unto death. He was subject to the law that God subjected us to. In order for Him to get rid of its hold on us and to be faithful to His own word that "for sin comes death" he had to fulfil it in the flesh of man in order that all flesh can be delivered from its hold and ultimate condemnation. The law required that only one near of kin could redeem a lost inheritance, that is why He was kinned to us, made flesh and blood as we are. We cannot chose to not be flesh and blood but He could. And He chose to take on this flesh and blood and fulfilled the perfect law and to take the penalty of death for those who cannot keep it. So no, Jesus could not have gone around and raped and murder and yet still be called the spotless lamb slain from the foundations of the world that had to be without blemish as the Old Testament sacrificial lambs had to be without blemish or spot. If Jesus had thought a wrong thought once in His lifetime then His sacrifice could not have been accepted as adequate in the presence of the Father when He ascended and presented His sacrifice to Him. Not only was it accepted as adequate but it is forever adequate. That is why He is now seated (a picture of work finished) at the right hand of God. And you want to tell me that God is not faithful to His Word? He is faithful, faithful to His own hurt. Would you out of love for another send your only begotten son to pay the penalty for evil people's sins in order that they might have forgiveness? God's goodness is incomprehensible and the suggestion that He is a liar can only begotten from the pit of Hell.

Akrasia wrote: »

Actually, we do have a fair idea what life for early humans was like. We have discovered this through science, not holy books. Science allows us to explore things that happened in the past 'on the other side of the fence'. Only willful ignorance prevents you from sharing in that exploration.

Go on humour me. Tell me about this other side of the fence so. I'm all ears.

Akrasia wrote: »

We certainly never had the ability to fly or any other supernatural abilities. We know this because the human body is physically incapable of flying under its own power. (lots of people died trying to prove this wrong) Imagining a superman style adam is pretty laughable, its not something an intelligent and mature adult should be taking seriously.

Akrasia wrote: »

A perfect example of the subtle put downs I was talking about earlier. How is it ok for you guys to put us down but when we do it you run home to Mammy moderator?

Akrasia wrote: »

We weren't, adam never existed, and the common evolutionary ancestor for homo sapiens certainly did not carry all of us around in his loins. And even if he did, it is totally unfair to punish the offspring of someone for the activities of his ancestor that he did thousands of years before they were even born.

Who said God has to be fair? You're cultural upbringing, you're frame of reference that you are trapped in tells you that. God doesn't have to be fair in order to be God. Your concept of "fair" is inherited culturally.

Akrasia wrote: »

It used to be that the debt of a father fell on his son (through intergenerational slavery and bonded labour) I don't know how much of this was justified through reference to religious texts, but thankfully, we've moved past such barbarism in western democracies.

Ah yes the western civilised democratic world. What a model standard for perfect living.

Akrasia wrote: »

The moon has glory? Its just a huge rock that separated from earth billions of years ago. The only 'glory' it has is gravity and its ability to reflect light from the sun.

I think the Moon is quite beautiful, but you see what you want to see I suppose. As a side road: Can you tell why the moon doesn't rotate on its axis? Strange how something which supposedly separated from the earth billions of years go can still be shaped spherically and never moves except to orbit this beautiful planet of ours. Why does it not rotate on its axis? Surely the momentum of such a separation would cause the moon to spin. Why no spinning? Just curious not relevant to this discussion I know.

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Ah yes the western civilised democratic world. What a model standard for perfect living.

Where would you prefer to live, and in what time?

Soul Winner wrote: »

As a side road: Can you tell why the moon doesn't rotate on its axis? Strange how something which supposedly separated from the earth billions of years go can still be shaped spherically and never moves except to orbit this beautiful planet of ours. Why does it not rotate on its axis? Surely the momentum of such a separation would cause the moon to spin. Why no spinning? Just curious not relevant to this discussion I know.

Er, the moon does spin on its axis -- at exactly the same rate as it rotates about the earth -- that's why we see the same view all the time. You've been reading creationists on astronomy again, haven't you...?

Soul Winner wrote: »

I think the Moon is quite beautiful, but you see what you want to see I suppose.

<cough, cough>

.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

Do you believe there is any evidence or any information at all that would cause you to lose your faith?

If I believed that then I wouldn't have the faith I have would I? There was one time when I was puzzled over something Jesus said to the women after the resurrection. He said do not touch me, I have not yet ascended to the father. Yet in another appearance to His disciples he allows them to touch Him. Did this make me loose my faith? No, but it bugged me fro ages. My faith said that if God is truth then there is an answer to this. What I failed to realise at this time was that the problem arose only in my mind. It was not in the scripture. Jesus could have made many ascensions after the resurrection between the time He spoke to the woman and the time he appeared to his disciples. In fact He tells the woman that that is what He was going to do and to tell His disciples about it. After more study I also found out why the woman was not allowed to touch Him until He had presented Himself to His Father. It was to do with an Old Testament Law. The High Priest could not be touched until He offered the sacrifice in the Holy of Hollies in the Tabernacle in the Old Testament otherwise he would have to do it all over again. Once the sacrifice was accepted and the priest came out only then could he be touched. Anyway that's just one example of something that bugged me. What I usually find when I delve deeper into things like this is more times than not I come away with an even stronger faith than before.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

We always have free will even in Heaven. In God's universe, there are two ultimate destinations for all of us and there's nothing anyone can do change that. Our destination is our own choice.

I can't quite see how this can be classed as free will though. It's basically, "Believe that this dude died for your sins, or else burn forever in eternal torture."
Firstly, one cannot make oneself believe, and secondly, it's still not much of a choice. If God was respecting my free will I would have an alternative to heaven or hell. Really, if God was respecting my free will he would have (somehow) asked me if I even want to be created in the first place. To paraphrase a section in a book called "The Mystic Christ" (forget who wrote it now) the general Christian idea of God is that of a bloke who created these sentient creatures, put them in a world rigged so that they would fail his tests and then torture them for eternity as punishment. Either one believes in Jesus and obeys Gods laws, or they suffer horribly. I can't see where free will comes into it. Is it free will for me to try and convince myself to believe in Jesus and love God, or choose to burn instead? I choose neither! Where's my free will?

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

What alternative would you suggest? You don't understand what it means to sin against God what rejecting Him means. Our whole life is a pilgrimage towards God's ultimate glorious plan for us. Of course you can turn your back on this.

The alternative could be that God just wipes out the existence of the rest of us. I don't have a problem with this and it seemes fairer than hell. Once again, if we don't understand what rejecting God means, why should we suffer for it? Of course we can turn our back on God, but only if we get burned forever instead.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

You'll get what you deserve. Only the perfectly pure can exist in God's presence and exclusion from God's presence is Hell. You will certainly understand this when you die. A person in a state of mortal would rather go to Hell that Heaven because darkness cannot tolerate light as scripture says. Ugliness detests beauty.

Well no-one who leaves this earth is perfectly pure, you will be cleansed by purgatory. So why not cleanse everyone? when they die, they can get the evidence that god is real and be offered purgatory followed by heaven. Alternatively, their existence can be wiped out. I still haven't seen any convincing argument on this forum for the existence of an everlasting hell.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

That is Jesus' promise to you. I strongly recommend that you read some biographies of the saints for ideas as to just how much God can act in a person's life.

What of the people who knock and another God reveals himself, like Allah? Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, after all.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

Are you guys serious? We Christians get put down all the time on this our own forum for believing in God

If anyone on this forum said that someone believing in God "has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department" they would be given a warning or possibly banned.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Oh but when we give you a taste of your own medicine it is cry to the mods time. Give me a break!

No one cried "mods time" ... I warned RealEstateKing not to respond in like to your insult, as he would be breathing the charter, which was confirmed by the warning he received from PDN.

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

Where would you prefer to live, and in what time?

Haven't thought about that much. Mars when it was supposedly habitable maybe?

robindch wrote: »

Er, the moon does spin on its axis -- at exactly the same rate as it rotates about the earth -- that's why we see the same view all the time. You've been reading creationists on astronomy again, haven't you...?

You see what happens when we judge things from our limited perspective? If you could see my face

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

No one cried "mods time" ... I warned RealEstateKing not to respond in like to your insult, as he would be breathing the charter, which was confirmed by the warning he received from PDN.

If Soulwinner had made such an insult he would have received an infraction. I believe that his statement was that anyone who chose hell over heaven, believing both to be real and being aware of their nature, would be a few fries short of a happy meal (or words to that effect).

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

You don't produce children you re-produce them. There is a difference. There are two words in the Hebrew for create. On is used to create something out of something already created and the other is to create from nothing at all. Can you create in the sense of the latter? Can you choose the design of your child. Can you choose the eye colour. You are not in control at all. If God exists then He is the true originator and owner and therefore has the right to do whatever He pleases with what He originates and the thing which He originates can decide that it doesn't like what the originator is doing but it is not the one with the power to do anything about is it?

It still doesn't follow that a creator must necessarily have the ability to control his creation.
One thing I can create is an idea or a piece of Art. But once I release that creation into the world I suddenly lose control over it. (it could be stolen, it could be used out of context or it could inspire someone else to have a different idea that I might not agree with)

There is no logical necessity for a creator to be all powerful over the creation.

I believe this universe was created and is ordered and maintained by God’s Word. How? I don’t know.

The universe is ordered by physical forces. Whether or not god designed them is for a different debate.
Once the laws of physics are there, there is no need for anymore intervention, the universe can operate by itself. God doesn't interfere. There is no evidence (outside of the bible) of any miracles or any divine intervention that can not be explained using science.

No but you do still throw out the garbage. Now to a gardener the garbage is defined by that which has no good use to him. To God He has defined what is no good to Him and that is those with no faith in Him. And as He is the originator then He can choose that to be the garbage if He so pleases. You might not like that kind of God but I don't see Him checking opinion polls about it.

Yes, I throw out the rubbish, (or recycle it into compost) I certainly don't put it in an alternate existence and punish it for all eternity.

If there are slugs eating my lettuce I kill them or find a way to stop them from getting to the lettuce.. I don't torture them as punishment, that would be cruel (and serve no purpose)

The 'cannot lie' attribute of Gods is just that, an attribute. It is not that He is not allowed to lie. He just isn't a liar. If He were a liar then there would be no basis for faith. But anyone who has taken the time to practice faith in His word knows that He is faithful to it. There are just some things you cannot know until you have tried them out. God wants the attitude that Job eventually got. "Though He slay me yet will I trust Him." I’m not there yet but I, like Paul, press towards the mark.

That is very true. If God could be found out to be a liar then yes there would be no basis for faith in Him. Is this yet another argument form silence or can you prove this to be the case? Have you found an instance where you know God was lying about something? Let us have it and be done with this discussion.

We can't prove God is lying because none of the claims can be tested in any way. But believing promises about future rewards without any real basis usually results in disappointment.
God could easily provide concrete evidence of his own existence and end all of this uncertainty and save billions of souls from damnnation but he chooses not to.
It sounds like a con to me.

Well assuming He exists at all then He has revealed two ways in which we can operate. 1. To trust in what we see rather than in what He says. or 2. To trust what He says. If you ever take the time to study Gods Word you will notice a pattern of faithfulness from beginning to end in His word, especially with regards to the promises He made to Abraham. That through His seed the whole world would be blessed. Christ came from the seed of Abraham and through Him the whole world is blessed because He died for the whole world and the whole world’s sins are forgiven. The only reason why some have not forgiveness of sins is because they reject this provision of Christ. That's their prerogative. If they want forgiveness then accept that they are forgiven through Him. That they don't, results in them staying in their sins.

You can find fulfilled prophesies in almost any book if you use hindsight to interpret passages to coincide with events you know took place.
A prophesy is absolutely useless if it doesn't predict things before they happen.
There is a book out that claims the Bible prophecised 9/11. No it didn't cause 9/11 came as a complete surprise and wasn't predicted by any bible scholars before it happened.

In some countries it is wrong to behead people yet in others it is ok. Depends on the culture. There is no universal definition of sin. If there is an originator then what that originator says is wrong, is wrong. Not what the product of that originator thinks should be wrong. Rape might be wrong but it is not wrong because you said it is.

It is always wrong to kill an innocent person, even in places where capital punishment is routinely used. There is no culture in the history of human civilisation that would consider killing the first born son in every family to be a morally right thing to do. (there may be some who might consider it an effective strategy, but nobody would argue that it is morally right)

Go on humour me. Tell me about this other side of the fence so. I'm all ears.

I was referring to things that are not available to our empirical senses. Through science we know what the sun is made out of. According to religion, the sun is just something created by god for the benefit of people. A religious attitude would be 'We can't possibly understand what the sun is, made out of, lets just take it on faith that its a glorious gift from god and use it as proof that god loves us. A scientist will look for ways to find measure and examine the sun so we can understand it better than our 5 senses should allow.

A perfect example of the subtle put downs I was talking about earlier. How is it ok for you guys to put us down but when we do it you run home to Mammy moderator?

I never called for a moderator.

Who said God has to be fair? You're cultural upbringing, you're frame of reference that you are trapped in tells you that. God doesn't have to be fair in order to be God. Your concept of "fair" is inherited culturally.

Justice and fairness are intertwined. It is not justice to hold someone responsible for something he/she had absolutely no control over. It is not just to punish an innocent for the crime of someone else.

Ah yes the western civilised democratic world. What a model standard for perfect living.

We're an awful lot better than society of the old testament with all its stonings and animal sacrifices

I think the Moon is quite beautiful, but you see what you want to see I suppose.

beauty and glory aren't the same things.

[/quote] As a side road: Can you tell why the moon doesn't rotate on its axis? [/quote]
It does rotate, it just happens to rotate in such a way that makes it always show the same side to the earth.. It might seem like an amazing coincidence, but it's actually as a result of the earths gravity (the earth has a 'tidal' influence on the moon just like the moon has a tidal influence on the earth and this caused the moons rotation to become synchronised with the rotation of the earth.

There you go. Now can you tell me the reason why you think God would design the moon so that it always shows the same side to the earth? What benefit does that give to humans?

Strange how something which supposedly separated from the earth billions of years go can still be shaped spherically and never moves except to orbit this beautiful planet of ours.

Large Celestial bodies are spherical because of gravity.
Gravity pulls everything towards the center of the object. Large objects behave like a fluid (cause of pressure and weight, the stone and metals aren't strong enough to resist the force of gravity. If there was a very high mountain that distorted the shape of the moon, the weight at the base of the mountain would be so heavy it would crush the rocks and the mountain would collapse.

Why does it not rotate on its axis? Surely the momentum of such a separation would cause the moon to spin. Why no spinning? Just curious not relevant to this discussion I know.

I hope my explanation was satisfactory.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

If Soulwinner had made such an insult he would have received an infraction. I believe that his statement was that anyone who chose hell over heaven, believing both to be real and being aware of their nature, would be a few fries short of a happy meal (or words to that effect).

I said I would choose hell over heaven, and gave the reasons why

Soul Winner responded saying that anyone who would choose hell over heaven is a few cans short of a six pack, a few fries short of a happy meal, a few Christians short of a Crusade. etc etc

Now I don't really care, which is why I didn't complain to you or Asia. I certainly see that as a mild insult, I understand that he thinks such a positions nuts and that anyone who holds such a position is either lying to themselves or a bit crazy.

But lets not pretend it wasn't what it was.

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Mars when it was supposedly habitable maybe?

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. Can't imagine it would be much fun with just the odd bacterium for company though, if even that. No nightlife either and only what I produce myself for wine and beer. Nah, doesn't do it for me!

Soul Winner wrote: »

You see what happens when we judge things from our limited perspective?

That was rather my point -- I can feel the waves of embarrassment from here -- you should try some real science books instead of Ham's and Snelling's frightful nonsense. There are far more interesting things in the universe than stationary moons

StormWarrior

I just found the book I mentioned earlier, "The Mystic Christ." It's by Ethan Walker and very interesting. I would like to quote a bit that is relevant to the discussions that have been going on in this forum lately:

In Hinduism and Buddhism, the concept of reaping what we sow is called karma. God is not seen as vengeful and punishing but rather compassionate and merciful, waiting to respond to our slightest whimper and call. The jealous, tyrannical god who is perpetually punishing, smiting and casting the naughty into the sulphurus flames of eternal damnation is simply a projection from the minds of humans who are themselves jealous, cruel and punishing. God is love. God is compassionate and watches our suffering with sadness, not anger or contempt. He does not even go so far as to say "I told you so," because that would defy God's eternal spirit of love. God loves us intensely. He has only care and concern that we are ignorant and suffer because of our ignorance. It is a mistake to say that God angrily metes out punishment to sinners. Only egos do that.

Elsewhere in the book it says that Christianity originally preached re-incarnation, and says that everyone gets more chances until they make it to heaven. What do you think?

PDN

StormWarrior wrote: »

Elsewhere in the book it says that Christianity originally preached re-incarnation, and says that everyone gets more chances until they make it to heaven. What do you think?

I would like to see their evidence for claiming that Christianity originally preached reincarnation.

StormWarrior

Supposedly Constantine had that bit removed to make people behave themselves:
http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk/index-page14.html

PDN

StormWarrior wrote: »

Supposedly Constantine had that bit removed to make people behave themselves:
http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk/index-page14.html

He must have used a time machine. All the New Testament manuscripts we have from before Constantine's time (over 70 0f them) read the same as the ones from after Constantine's time.

StormWarrior

The bible has been edited so many times, who knows what was in it before? What do you think of the rest, that the cruel God is the projection of a cruel mind?

PDN

StormWarrior wrote: »

The bible has been edited so many times, who knows what was in it before? What do you think of the rest, that the cruel God is the projection of a cruel mind?

Maybe you could cite some evidence for your assertion that the Bible has been edited so many times? Or are you just repeating what someone else has told you without being sceptical enough to check the facts? All the evidence I have seen demonstrates that the biblical text has been preserved with remarkable integrity. If you compare manuscripts from different centuries they are consistent.

As for the rest, about the cruel projection? I think an author that is so lamentably ignorant of biblical manuscripts and history (the reincarnation and Constantine claims) can hardly expect me to worry about what he thinks of God.

aggresso

It's just a book. There are lots of books to be lamentably ignorant about.

PDN

aggresso wrote: »

It's just a book. There are lots of books to be lamentably ignorant about.

Indeed there are. And I would take the same view in those cases.

For example, if someone shows themselves to be lamentably ignorant about the Quran then I'm hardly going to be bothered to listen to their theories about Mohammed.

StormWarrior

PDN wrote: »

Maybe you could cite some evidence for your assertion that the Bible has been edited so many times?

The book I mentioned earlier has many pages listing all the editing that has been done. I don't have time to type it all out but if anyone is interested they can read the book.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

All the evidence I have seen demonstrates that the biblical text has been preserved with remarkable integrity. If you compare manuscripts from different centuries they are consistent.

Yes, if you compare manuscripts from after the normalization of Constantine and the other christian Emperors and bishops of the third and fourth centuries. There are so few manuscripts from the first century or so, that a meaningful comparison cannot be made.

Regardless of that, scholars have still recorded over 200,000 textual differences amongst the 5,600 or so early manuscripts available.

If you're interested in reading up on the latest ideas, I do recommend "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why", by Bart Ehrman, who began his academic career as a biblical literalist, but abandoned this belief in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. From the wikipage:

wiki wrote:

The book describes an early Christian environment in which the books that would later compose the New Testament were copied by hand, mostly by Christian amateurs. Ehrman concludes that various early scribes altered the New Testament texts in order to deemphasize the role of women in the early church, to unify and harmonize the different portrayals of Jesus in the four gospels, and to oppose certain heresies (such as Adoptionism). Ehrman contends that certain widely-held Christian beliefs, such about the divinity of Jesus, are associated not with the original words of scripture but with these later alterations.

.

HalloweenJack

kelly1 wrote: »

Seems a bit contradictory? How do you keep in touch with God and not believe in Him?

The reason why I rejected Christianity wasn't to do with losing touch with God, that's what I was saying.

I rejected Christianity because I didn't believe it was all it was cracked up to be and, therefore, I rejected the idea of a Christian God.

kelly1

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I rejected Christianity because I didn't believe it was all it was cracked up to be and, therefore, I rejected the idea of a Christian God.

OK. Any may I ask, what were you expecting from Christianity and why did you reject it?

HalloweenJack

kelly1 wrote: »

OK. Any may I ask, what were you expecting from Christianity and why did you reject it?

I rejected Christianity because the infrastructure is full of people who act in hypocritical, un-Christian ways. I'm not going to accept a religion/organisation that does not get rid of these people.

kelly1

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I rejected Christianity because the infrastructure is full of people who act in hypocritical, un-Christian ways. I'm not going to accept a religion/organisation that does not get rid of these people.

It not true to say the Church is *full* of hypocrites. We're all hypocrities to some extent. Whether you believe it or not, the pope is the successor of Peter and the bishops are the successors of the apostles and they have the divine authority to teach in the name of Jesus and to administer the sacraments. Jesus never promised that His followers would be free from sin. So let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

HalloweenJack

Ferns Report.

kelly1

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Ferns Report.

What happened in Ferns sickened me too. But I believe the Catholic Church is the same Church founded by Christ. The perpetrators of those abominable acts will be brought to justice by severe punishment in the next life in Hell or Purgatory and more so because they were charged with bringing souls to Christ. Instead they committed the worst possible crimes by defiling the young and innocent. I could never condone such crimes but I'm faithful to Christ and His Church.

HalloweenJack

Well I couldn't stay in the Church after that.

aggresso

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm faithful to Christ and His Church.

Why?

kelly1

aggresso wrote: »

Why?

Because as I said already, Christ founded a Church and I believe the CC is that same Church today and as a follower of Christ, I'm faithful to the Church founded by Him despite it's failings and sins. I believe the CC has the divine authority to teach the truth and to dispense His grace via the sacraments. It's like Christ is the fountain of grace and the Church has the authority to draw from this Fountain. I believe Sacred Tradition to be equally important as Sacred Scripture so I don't accept "bible only" Christianity.

The Church also teaches the fullness of Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything which teaches a contradictory doctrine is heresy. Many people say it's impossible to get at the truth but I disagree.

aggresso

kelly1 wrote: »

Because as I said already, Christ founded a Church and I believe the CC is that same Church today and as a follower of Christ, I'm faithful to the Church founded by Him despite it's failings and sins. I believe the CC has the divine authority to teach the truth and to dispense His grace via the sacraments. It's like Christ is the fountain of grace and the Church has the authority to draw from this Fountain. I believe Sacred Tradition to be equally important as Sacred Scripture so I don't accept "bible only" Christianity.

The Church also teaches the fullness of Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything which teaches a contradictory doctrine is heresy. Many people say it's impossible to get at the truth but I disagree.

But why are you faithful to Christ, rather than Buddha, Brian or Christopher Hitchens?

kelly1

aggresso wrote: »

But why are you faithful to Christ, rather than Buddha, Brian or Christopher Hitchens?

Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception. There are many false prophets but only one true Mediator between God and man.

Christianity is about reality. The reality of God's love and mercy. The reality of sin and how sin and God are totally incompatible. Christianity isn't about wishy-washy notions of the next life. It's about the reality of God's commandments to us and the reality of judgment following this life. It's the difference between Heaven and Hell. Christ doesn't lure us into a false sense of security the way other religions do. Christ has told us what we must do in order to be saved. I don't think for a moment that all religions are different paths to God. And I've looked at several other paths and found them to be false and treacherous.

MattKid

Kelly I don't see eye to eye with you on many of your posts but the above is a top post

marco_polo

kelly1 wrote: »

Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception. There are many false prophets but only one true Mediator between God and man.

Christianity is about reality. The reality of God's love and mercy. The reality of sin and how sin and God are totally incompatible. Christianity isn't about wishy-washy notions of the next life. It's about the reality of God's commandments to us and the reality of judgment following this life. It's the difference between Heaven and Hell. Christ doesn't lure us into a false sense of security the way other religions do. Christ has told us what we must do in order to be saved. I don't think for a moment that all religions are different paths to God. And I've looked at several other paths and found them to be false and treacherous.

You're not really big into that whole tolerance thing are you? :rolleyes:

kelly1

marco_polo wrote: »

You're not really big into that whole tolerance thing are you? :rolleyes:

I tolerate non-Christian beliefs and how could I not? But if someone comes to me telling me that for example reincarnation is true, I'll make my beliefs on the matter clearly known!

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception.

How can you possibly judge that?

kelly1 wrote: »

Christianity isn't about wishy-washy notions of the next life. It's about the reality of God's commandments to us and the reality of judgment following this life.

Isn't that a "wishy-washy" notion of the next life?

kelly1 wrote: »

Christ doesn't lure us into a false sense of security the way other religions do. Christ has told us what we must do in order to be saved.

Like your comments on the after life those two sentences are rather contradictory.

Christianity doesn't "lure" you into a false sense of security, but it does tell you that if you do certain things you will be saved from hell and live for eternity in heaven ... ummm, do you see what you did there?

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't think for a moment that all religions are different paths to God. And I've looked at several other paths and found them to be false and treacherous.

And you judged that how exactly?

kelly1

Wicknight, there's more to life than logic, reason and science. Can't you go beyond that, ever?

Reincarnation is one example of a dangerous philosophy. If reincarnation is true, then Christ died in vain. If it's false, belief in it could very easily land one in Hell.

marco_polo

kelly1 wrote: »

I tolerate non-Christian beliefs and how could I not? But if someone comes to me telling me that for example reincarnation is true, I'll make my beliefs on the matter clearly known!

You are more than entitled to express your views and beliefs but the the use of phrases such as "false and treacherous" is unnecessary and inflamatory language, and doesn't exactly help you come across in a good light.

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

Reincarnation is one example of a dangerous philosophy. If reincarnation is true, then Christ died in vain. If it's false, belief in it could very easily land one in Hell.

Only if you interpret everything through the prism of christianity.

(Aside: everyone dies in vain.)

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

there's more to life than logic, reason and science.

Nobody ever said there wasn't, though most religious people seem to think that atheists think there isn't.

Closing your eyes to the reality of the world you can see, to replace it with the imaginary irreality of one you can't is unwise. A reasonable destination is rarely reached via an unreasonable road.

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

Nobody ever said there wasn't, though most religious people seem to think that atheists think there isn't.

Closing your eyes to the reality of the world you can see, to replace it with the imaginary irreality of one you can't is unwise. A reasonable destination is rarely reached via an unreasonable road.

My eyes certainly aren't closed to the reality of this world around us. I don't know what gave you that idea.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Wicknight, there's more to life than logic, reason and science....

Prove it!