Why do people lose faith?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

My eyes certainly aren't closed to the reality of this world around us. I don't know what gave you that idea.

Are you serious Kelly1? The nursery rhyme three blind mice just jumped into my head.

Mark Hamill

kelly1 wrote: »

Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception.

Really? Well here is a big list of contradictions attributed to Jesus. How can Jesus speak the truth and then contradict himself? One "truth" must be a lie surely?

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Really? Well here is a big list of contradictions attributed to Jesus. How can Jesus speak the truth and then contradict himself? One "truth" must be a lie surely?

Mark, instead of linking to a Islamic propaganda list (which contains some stuff that only a fathead could possibly see as Jesus contradicting himself) why don't you try expressing yourself in your own words? I, for one, would gladly respond to some of those 'contradictions'.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Wicknight, there's more to life than logic, reason and science. Can't you go beyond that, ever?

Considering logic, reason and science are methods and tools of though, I don't really understand what you mean by "beyond that"

But getting back to your post, you made some very definitive assertions, such as asserting that Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies.

If you didn't use "logic or reason" to arrive at these conclusions I would be very interested to know what you did use to judge the accuracy of that statement.

kelly1 wrote: »

Reincarnation is one example of a dangerous philosophy. If reincarnation is true, then Christ died in vain. If it's false, belief in it could very easily land one in Hell.

I'm not sure how Christ "dying in vain" is dangerous, but you are right that your religion sets up the rules of the game so that any acceptance of external dogma is threatened with eternal punishment. Believe what we say, reject everything else, or go to hell (literally)

Funny that. Its almost as if it is trying to manipulate people into following it through fear of eternal punishment. Even if you aren't 100% sure, why take the risk.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

My eyes certainly aren't closed to the reality of this world around us. I don't know what gave you that idea.

Probably your comment about logic, reason and science.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

Mark, instead of linking to a Islamic propaganda list (which contains some stuff that only a fathead could possibly see as Jesus contradicting himself) why don't you try expressing yourself in your own words?

Because I was responding to another post where someone said that "Jesus speaks the truth and all else is lies". Why, if I wanted to show Jesus not speaking the truth (by contradicting himself), would I use my own words?

PDN wrote: »

I, for one, would gladly respond to some of those 'contradictions'.

Ehh then why don't you respond to some of those contradictions like:

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:39)

He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." (Mark 8:12)

or

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Matthew 10:34,35)

Honour thy father and mother: (Matthew 19:19)

and lastly

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (Luke 18:19)

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mark 14:61,62)

(last quote also in also in Matthew 26:63-65, and Luke 22:67-70)
A contradiction because i thought Jesus was God (the holy Trinity and all)

aggresso

kelly1 wrote: »

Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception. There are many false prophets but only one true Mediator between God and man.

You sound very sure. How come you're so convinced? You just set out a series of assertions that you don't argue for. Do you have arguments for them, or are your beliefs to do with a "leap of faith" or do they result from some sort of visionary experience, or something else?

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you believe in the complex of beliefs you've just listed, when you surely know that to any objective outsider there's not a shred of objective evidence for them.

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Because I was responding to another post where someone said that "Jesus speaks the truth and all else is lies". Why, if I wanted to show Jesus not speaking the truth (by contradicting himself), would I use my own words?

Because simply linking to something you googled usually adds little or nothing to a debate. I can refute some of the so-called contradictions in the link and then you can say something like, "Well, I'm not saying I agree with all of it. I just thought it was an interesting link" etc.

So it is much better if you actually post what it is you want to say and then be prepared to stand over it.

Ehh then why don't you respond to some of those contradictions like:

That's more like it!

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:39)

He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." (Mark 8:12)

There is no contradiction here. Both Matthew and Mark accurately report the words of Jesus, but Mark omits the reference to the sign of the prophet Jonah.

This is entirely understandable when you consider that Matthew was written to a Jewish audience whereas Mark was written for Gentile Romans. The readers of Matthew would be familiar with the rabbinical tradition that Jonah actually died and was resurrected in the belly of the whale, and so would understand that Jesus was saying to the Pharisees, "You guys keep banging on about seeing some mighty miracle in the sky to vindicate me, but you aren't going to get it. The main miracle you will see is when I rise from the dead after three days, and if you reject that then you're toast."

If Mark included the aside about Jonah then he would have to explain to the Roman readers who Jonah was, and also about the rabbinical allusion. Therefore it made more sense in his shorter and snappier account of Jesus to simply leave Him saying, "You won't see the mighty miracle in the sky that you're looking for. Sorry guys, you're varking up the wrong tree."

Good editing by an author to retain that which served his purpose, but not a contradiction by any reasonable reading of the text.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Matthew 10:34,35)

Honour thy father and mother: (Matthew 19:19)

Because human nature is fundamentally flawed, then those who follow Jesus may expect to receive opposition, even from their loved ones. However, this does not excuse being disrespectful to those family members who oppose us.

I have a friend, Yang, who was the Youth secretary for the Communist Party in the Yellow river region of China. He became a Christian as a result of reading the Bible at university, even though he had never met a Christian. For a long time his father used to beat him regularly in an attempt to force him to renounce Christ. Despite this he continued to honour his father and, in every other respect, was an obedient son. This eventually resulted in his father alspo accepting Christ. Yang would most definitely see no contradiction in these two verses.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (Luke 18:19)

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mark 14:61,62)

By asking the young man who came to Him, "Why do you call me good, since no-one except God is good?" Jesus was inviting the young man to look closer at how Jesus' goodness was different from the young man's own goodness. To claim divinity when talking to a devout monotheistic Jew was certainly to broach a touchy subject, but Jesus was encouraging the young man to come to the obvious conclusion - that the goodness of Jesus was such that the claims he made about Himself were true. Jesus was leading the young man to see that it was not enough, and indeed was illogical, to simply view Jesus as 'just a good man'. The claims He was making were so extraordinary that He was either a blasphemous liar, a lunatic, or God.

So, no contradictions there as far as I can see.

kelly1

aggresso wrote: »

You sound very sure. How come you're so convinced? You just set out a series of assertions that you don't argue for. Do you have arguments for them, or are your beliefs to do with a "leap of faith" or do they result from some sort of visionary experience, or something else?

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you believe in the complex of beliefs you've just listed, when you surely know that to any objective outsider there's not a shred of objective evidence for them.

Agresso, part of the problem is that it's hard to articulate these things.

I converted after a trip to Lourdes in Sep 2004. Before I went to Lourdes I was convinced that Yoga was the route to God. I read lots of new-age books, taoism and all that malarkey. Even while I was in Lourdes I was talking to people and telling them that they should check out the writing of Yogananda.
Obviously God had other ideas. The night before I left, I went to the grotto and prayed for faith and my prayer was answered big-time. Quite suddenly I had the urge to explore my Catholic faith again which I had abandoned 15 years earlier. It was like discovering a treasure chest! I had finally found the truth I had been looking for for years and it had been under by nose all the time.

A while after I came back from Lourdes I had a very powerful "prodigal son" experience. I became keenly aware of how sinful my life had been and how loving and merciful God is. I cried like a baby but I was so happy knowing that I was back in the arms of God. Confession can also be a wonderful experience.

There have been countless times when I've felt the Holy Spirit working in my soul, guiding and consoling me. It's so wonderful to feel God's grace at work in my soul. And how terrible it is to sin and destroy this grace...

I've also read heaps of Catholic book on the lives of the saints and other theological works. The saints are always a great inspiration to me. They showed me what God does for those people who devote their lives completely to Him. They all said the same thing; the joy that God puts into a soul is totally beyond words!

Reading the gospel also has its "lightbulb" moments where the Holy Spirit inspires me with understanding of what I'm reading and makes it real.

Everything I've ever read or experienced about Jesus is just so right, so true. I just "know" that He's the Good Shepherd and that He'll never let me down.

There's no point in my trying to explain any of this by natural means because it's supernatural. Have you tried reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis? Apparently He gives a good rational argument for Christianity. I've just ordered the book.

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Obviously God had other ideas. The night before I left, I went to the grotto and prayed for faith and my prayer was answered big-time. Quite suddenly I had the urge to explore my Catholic faith again which I had abandoned 15 years earlier.

If you had "abandoned" Christianity why where you in a grotto in Lourdes praying to God for faith?

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

If you had "abandoned" Christianity why where you in a grotto in Lourdes praying to God for faith?

I was in Lourdes because my mother died there in 1999 and I only went there because my brother paid for the ticket. Before I went to Lourdes, I had no time for the Church. I never went to Mass and had stopped praying and going to confession. My life was mess.

I probably prayed for faith because the Holy Spirit inspired me. I'm not sure why I did it. Maybe I wanted the same faith as the other pilgrims I saw around me.

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

Obviously God had other ideas. The night before I left, I went to the grotto and prayed for faith and my prayer was answered big-time. Quite suddenly I had the urge to explore my Catholic faith again which I had abandoned 15 years earlier. It was like discovering a treasure chest! I had finally found the truth I had been looking for for years and it had been under by nose all the time.

All well and good and I'm happy you found some meaning in a troubled life... but you said before you now regard all other paths to the truth as treacherous and fatal. What would you say of people who have had similar epiphanies to yourself when praying to other gods or following other paths?

Why do you feel the need to condemn other paths as evil simply because they didn't work for you?

Malari

Kelly1, when you say you felt the holy spirit and god's presence and jesus in your life, etc., how do you differentiate between these feelings?

I mean, you seem pretty sure it was was the holy spirit that turned you back to catholicism...how do you know? I mean a lot of people who had that experience would just call it god. What was holy spirity about it? What's the difference?

kelly1

rockbeer wrote: »

All well and good and I'm happy you found some meaning in a troubled life... but you said before you now regard all other paths to the truth as treacherous and fatal. What would you say of people who have had similar epiphanies to yourself when praying to other gods or following other paths?

Why do you feel the need to condemn other paths as evil simply because they didn't work for you?

God has revealed to us how He wants us to worship Him through Jesus because Jesus taught the truth and was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, the spotless Lamb. Jesus is God made man. i.e. Jesus took on a human nature in addition to His divine nature.

Clearly only 1 religion can be true because different religions contradict each other. So I've made up my mind after a lot of investigation that Christianity and in particual Catholicism is the one true relgion. Other contain different degrees of truth. Non-christian relgions are man made. Made to suit man's purposes, not God's.

For instance, Christians say that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to ask her to be the Mother of the Redeemer the Messiah. Yet Mohammed claimed to be visited by the same angel and said that he was the greatest prophet. I dare suggest he was visited by a demon rather than the angel Gabriel. As scripture says, the devil can appear as an angel of light as long as we go along with his plan. It's only when we follow God that the devils treacherous plans become apparent.

The devil and his minions are hard at work in this world putting false notions of religion in peoples minds - astrology, tarot cards, angel reading/therapy, chakara healing, yoga, buddism, paganism, taoism etc, etc, etc. My God, this world is so corrupt, full of sin, turning its back on God the creator, man putting himself above God! The arrogance!!! The world is in such a mess because man puts his will before God's holy will.

Unless we remain with Jesus, the Good Shepherd, we will get lost and caught in the endless snares that surround us - money, greed, power, perverse pleasures, gambling, drugs/drink, time wasting electronic gadgets, useless television/internet, mobile phones, false religion/spirituality. All these distractions take our focus off Jesus and harms our relationship with Him and ultimately puts our salvation at risk.

Enough rambling for now...

kelly1

Malari wrote: »

Kelly1, when you say you felt the holy spirit and god's presence and jesus in your life, etc., how do you differentiate between these feelings?

I mean, you seem pretty sure it was was the holy spirit that turned you back to catholicism...how do you know? I mean a lot of people who had that experience would just call it god. What was holy spirity about it? What's the difference?

[/QUOTE]I can't really tell the difference. Jesus acts through the Holy Spirit. Jesus is obviously easier to relate to than God or the Holy Spirit being human (and divine). I usually speak to Jesus more casually than to the Father or the Spirit. I usually pray to the Holy Spirit for His gifts and to the Father in thanks and praise. No hard and fast rules.

Malari

Clear as mud...

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

God has revealed to us how He wants us to worship Him through Jesus because Jesus taught the truth and was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, the spotless Lamb. Jesus is God made man. i.e. Jesus took on a human nature in addition to His divine nature.

<snip>

Enough rambling for now...

Holy baloney, this is quite unbelieveable. So every subscriber to a faith other than yours - or no faith - is corrupt and sinful, "lost and caught in the endless snares", a greedy, gambling, drug-taking timewaster. I'm glad I don't live in your world.

However, by focussing on all that you've completely missed the point of my question. What do you say of good, ordinary people who have epiphanies such as yours whilst following other paths. Are you saying such a thing is impossible? Can non-christians never live decent lives?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

My life was mess ... I'm not sure why I did it. Maybe I wanted the same faith as the other pilgrims I saw around me.

Do you think that might have had any effect on you being inspired to take a renewed interest in Catholicism and exploring your old faith?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Unless we remain with Jesus, the Good Shepherd, we will get lost and caught in the endless snares that surround us - money, greed, power, perverse pleasures, gambling, drugs/drink, time wasting electronic gadgets, useless television/internet, mobile phones, false religion/spirituality. All these distractions take our focus off Jesus and harms our relationship with Him and ultimately puts our salvation at risk.

Yeah the Buddhists are all about the time wasting gadgets :pac:

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

There is no contradiction here. Both Matthew and Mark accurately report the words of Jesus, but Mark omits the reference to the sign of the prophet Jonah.

PDN wrote: »

If Mark included the aside about Jonah then he would have to explain to the Roman readers who Jonah was, and also about the rabbinical allusion.

Just because the contradiction is because of how Mark wrote it, doesn't mean it no longer exists, it just means its Marks fault. Also you have just claimed that the bible was edited from the truth to save time and make it snappier. If it was edited here, who knows where else it was edited.

PDN wrote: »

Because human nature is fundamentally flawed, then those who follow Jesus may expect to receive opposition, even from their loved ones. However, this does not excuse being disrespectful to those family members who oppose us.

Fair enough.

PDN wrote: »

By asking the young man who came to Him, "Why do you call me good, since no-one except God is good?" Jesus was inviting the young man to look closer at how Jesus' goodness was different from the young man's own goodness. To claim divinity when talking to a devout monotheistic Jew was certainly to broach a touchy subject, but Jesus was encouraging the young man to come to the obvious conclusion - that the goodness of Jesus was such that the claims he made about Himself were true. Jesus was leading the young man to see that it was not enough, and indeed was illogical, to simply view Jesus as 'just a good man'. The claims He was making were so extraordinary that He was either a blasphemous liar, a lunatic, or God.

So, no contradictions there as far as I can see.

The contradiction is still there ("Why do you call me good, since no-one except God is good" and "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?And Jesus said, I am") Why he said it doesn't change that a contradiction is made.

NB The original point of me mentioning contradictions was to show Kelly1 that to say "Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception" is based on what Jesus supposedly says according to the bible, and in the bible there are things he says which contradicts other things he says. In fact by pointing out that Mark edited what Jesus actually said (according to Matthew) you have just shown that what the bible claims Jesus said might not have been actually said by him at all.

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

Good editing by an author to retain that which served his purpose, but not a contradiction by any reasonable reading of the text.

One wonders what other 'editing' the authors of the gospels did in order to make their argument as convincing as possible.

kelly1

rockbeer wrote: »

Holy baloney, this is quite unbelieveable. So every subscriber to a faith other than yours - or no faith - is corrupt and sinful, "lost and caught in the endless snares", a greedy, gambling, drug-taking timewaster. I'm glad I don't live in your world.

Everyone is corrupt and sinful to some extent. Basically I'm saying that I don't think we can't rise about our corrupt nature without God's grace. I believe original sin is a reality which explains our tendency to sin and turn against God. So it's all too easy for us to stray off the "narrow path" if we don't have Jesus in our lives.

rockbeer wrote: »

However, by focussing on all that you've completely missed the point of my question. What do you say of good, ordinary people who have epiphanies such as yours whilst following other paths. Are you saying such a thing is impossible? Can non-christians never live decent lives?

Someone could for instance worship buddah and have a vision of him or some voice or whatever and believe this to be true and real. I'm saying that any "revelations" which don't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God are false. So that includes Vishnu, Ganesh, Krisna, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith etc.
As I said already the devil can appear as an angel of light and that includes the ability to cause a false ecstasy. This is what happens to yoga practicioners who claim to have achieved enlightenment, Nirvana, Samadhi etc.

All the mystic saints have warned against seeking apparitions etc because it's all too easy to be deceived.

As for people living decent lives, yes non-christians can live decent lives in the eyes of other human beings. Our good works only have value and merit when we are done in union with Jesus and in a state of grace. A persons good deeds have little or no value in God's eyes unless we're in a state of grace. Christians in a state of grace are united to Jesus by His mystical body of which He is the Head. What the members of the body do for the sake of God's will are accepted by God as if they are done by Christ Himself thereby dramatically increasing their value and merit.

John 15:
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.

It's vitally important to remember that we are nothing and that God is everything and infinite. But the presence of God's grace within us raises us up to become like God. We humans of ourselves are nothing like God. It's grace that makes us like God, that "divinizes" us. This is why commiting a mortal sin, which destroys sanctifying grace, is such a tragedy. We become enemies of God rather than sons of God and where once we were glorious in God's sight, we become ugly sinners.

So everything good is a gift from God, we are of little value in ourselves but with God's grace we can reach great heights (if we remain humble). That's why we owe God so much love and praise. Everything of value comes from God but so many of us are puffed up with self-pride whereas we should be giving God all the thanks and glory.

Mark Hamill

kelly1 wrote: »

Clearly only 1 religion can be true because different religions contradict each other.

If different religions contradict each other then surely a likely possibility is that none of them are true? or the bits of all of them that don't contradict are true?

kelly1 wrote: »

For instance, Christians say that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to ask er to be the Mother of the Redeemer the Messiah. Yet Mohammed claimed to be visited by the same angel and said that he was the greatest prophet.

Is there a particular reason why Mary couldn't have been the Mother of the Redeemer the Messiah and Mohammed the greatest prophet? Are they mutually exclusive?

kelly1 wrote: »

I dare suggest he was visited by a demon rather than the angel Gabriel. As scripture says, the devil can appear as an angel of light as long as we go along with his plan. It's only when we follow God that the devils treacherous plans become apparent.

By that logic its possible Mary was visited by the Devil too. In fact in one way it makes sense. Look at it like this: now, 2000 years later, in ever single Christian church (and in many buildings and house too) is an effigy of God nailed to a cross, usually shown in great sadness or pain. Think of what a win that would be for the devil, every Christian worshipping an image of God suffering, and what it would do to the very foundations of Christian belief if the image ever had to be removed?

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Just because the contradiction is because of how Mark wrote it, doesn't mean it no longer exists, it just means its Marks fault. Also you have just claimed that the bible was edited from the truth to save time and make it snappier. If it was edited here, who knows where else it was edited.

There is no contradiction. If one reporter quotes an excerpt from a speech by John McCain, but another reporter quotes a longer excerpt, that does not constitute a contradiction.

Of course each Gospel writer edited the words of Jesus. They selected some words and they chose not to include others. I don't know of anyone who would be stupid enough to suppose that no editing went on and that each Gospel writer claimed to have recorded every single word that Jesus ever spoke.

John, in particular, clearly states that he chose to record those words and actions of Jesus that suited His purpose as a writer:

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30-31)

The fact that the biblical writers edited their sources, in the sense that they chose to include some material and omit others, in no way casts doubt upon the accuracy of what they wrote. That would be a strange leap of logic indeed.

The contradiction is still there ("Why do you call me good, since no-one except God is good" and "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?And Jesus said, I am") Why he said it doesn't change that a contradiction is made.

No, I think the contradiction is in what you are choosing to read between the lines.

In the first quote Jesus does not deny that He is God. His words can have either of the following meanings:
a) Why do you call me good when only God is good? I am not God, therefore I am not good?
b) Why do you call me good when only God is good, yet you fail to acknowledge me as God? Can't you see that if I am good then I am also God?

If a) is correct then Jesus would be contradicting Himself. If b) is correct then there is no contradiction except in your own head.

NB The original point of me mentioning contradictions was to show Kelly1 that to say "Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception" is based on what Jesus supposedly says according to the bible, and in the bible there are things he says which contradicts other things he says.

And you still haven't shown anything that is a contradiction. Would you like to try again? In your own words, or even a cut and paste job that you are prepared to stand over as your own opinion?

In fact by pointing out that Mark edited what Jesus actually said (according to Matthew) you have just shown that what the bible claims Jesus said might not have been actually said by him at all.

Maybe you should read that statement again and see how illogical it is.

I have pointed out that Mark edited what Jesus said by omitting a part of Jesus' speech that was irrelevant to his purpose. This does not in any way suggest that anyone added to the words of Jesus. To claim so is an unwarranted leap of logic.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Do you think that might have had any effect on you being inspired to take a renewed interest in Catholicism and exploring your old faith?

Probably. I do find it interesting that before I went to Lourdes I thought the Catholic faith had nothing to offer me and was misguided. I thought the Church had it wrong and that I could discover all I wanted to know through meditation and chanting. While I was in Lourdes I didn't engage anyone on a discussion about the faith but there was a beautiful sense of peace and goodwill there. It was the best week of my life.

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm saying that any "revelations" which don't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God are false. So that includes Vishnu, Ganesh, Krisna, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith etc.

im actually a bit confused by that statement.. so everyone else is wrong? How do you know for sure that you aren't wrong? im just curious - not bein smart..

kelly1 wrote: »

As I said already the devil can appear as an angel of light and that includes the ability to cause a false ecstasy. This is what happens to yoga practicioners who claim to have achieved enlightenment, Nirvana, Samadhi etc.

Also, this cant be the case all the time, i mean, not with everyone - plenty of newcomers would be able to tap in pretty quick if they are 'tuned in'.. I mean, why must you say its the devil..

kelly1 wrote: »

All the mystic saints have warned against seeking apparitions etc because it's all too easy to be deceived.

Also, they say its mot christian to communicate with the dead or believe astrology or psycics.. however, i have personal experience that it is possible and not the devil.. (please dont try saying it is.. coz i dont wanna get into all that im right , your wrong stuff.. )

rockbeer

PDN wrote: »

There is no contradiction. If one reporter quotes an excerpt from a speech by John McCain, but another reporter quotes a longer excerpt, that does not constitute a contradiction.

That depends entirely on what's left out of the shorter report and how it changes the meaning.

There's a world of difference between "there will be no tax cuts" and "there will be no tax cuts except for the super rich"

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

Maybe you should read that statement again and see how illogical it is.

I have pointed out that Mark edited what Jesus said by omitting a part of Jesus' speech that was irrelevant to his purpose. This does not in any way suggest that anyone added to the words of Jesus. To claim so is an unwarranted leap of logic.

You can mislead by omission as well as by deliberate fabrication.

"You will all receive eternal life"
is a lot more appealing than
"you will all receive eternal life so you can toil for etrenity in my underground salt mines"

AngryHippie

kelly1 wrote: »

Everyone is corrupt and sinful to some extent. Basically I'm saying that I don't think we can't rise about our corrupt nature without God's grace. I believe original sin is a reality which explains our tendency to sin and turn against God. So it's all too easy for us to stray off the "narrow path" if we don't have Jesus in our lives.


Someone could for instance worship buddah and have a vision of him or some voice or whatever and believe this to be true and real. I'm saying that any "revelations" which don't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God are false. So that includes Vishnu, Ganesh, Krisna, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith etc.
As I said already the devil can appear as an angel of light and that includes the ability to cause a false ecstasy. This is what happens to yoga practicioners who claim to have achieved enlightenment, Nirvana, Samadhi etc.

As for people living decent lives, yes non-christians can live decent lives in the eyes of other human beings. Our good works only have value and merit when we are done in union with Jesus and in a state of grace. A persons good deeds have little or no value in God's eyes unless we're in a state of grace. Christians in a state of grace are united to Jesus by His mystical body of which He is the Head. What the members of the body do for the sake of God's will are accepted by God as if they are done by Christ Himself thereby dramatically increasing their value and merit.

All of the above points as raised by Noel, And repeated ad nauseum by the hypocrites dictating what people should think, They are the reasons I have lost my faith. If I rememer my primary school catechism correctly it is worth sacrificing everything to save just one sinner, and yet here they are damning people who live righteously and worship in their own traditions as they were raised.....you people are what is worng with organised religion. The sooner you realise it, the better for the instituions you claim to support (blindly).

Peace out

kelly1

all the stars wrote: »

im actually a bit confused by that statement.. so everyone else is wrong? How do you know for sure that you aren't wrong? im just curious - not bein smart..

I won't know for certain that I'm right until I'm dead but it's a very strong conviction of mine. One of the reasons I believe in Jesus is that the more I work to do His will, the more peace and grace I feel.

all the stars wrote: »

Also, this cant be the case all the time, i mean, not with everyone - plenty of newcomers would be able to tap in pretty quick if they are 'tuned in'.. I mean, why must you say its the devil..

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

all the stars wrote: »

Also, they say its mot christian to communicate with the dead or believe astrology or psycics.. however, i have personal experience that it is possible and not the devil.. (please dont try saying it is.. coz i dont wanna get into all that im right , your wrong stuff.. )

I'm not sure what you're saying. What's possible?

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

Someone could for instance worship buddah and have a vision of him or some voice or whatever and believe this to be true and real.

Just as you had a vision of "god" and believed that to be real. Nothing except your opinion confers truth on either experience.

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm saying that any "revelations" which don't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God are false. So that includes Vishnu, Ganesh, Krisna, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith etc.

Based on what evidence other than your own opinion based on your personal experience? What makes your personal experience more valid or reliable than anyone else's?

kelly1 wrote: »

As for people living decent lives, yes non-christians can live decent lives in the eyes of other human beings. Our good works only have value and merit when we are done in union with Jesus and in a state of grace. A persons good deeds have little or no value in God's eyes unless we're in a state of grace.

So if I save a life the act is meaningless and the life saved worthless unless I also happen to believe in god. Is this really what you meant to say? Doesn't the tale of the good samaritan have something to say about this?

Here I am giving theological advice to a christian, how bizarre.

kelly1

AngryHippie wrote: »

All of the above points as raised by Noel, And repeated ad nauseum by the hypocrites dictating what people should think, They are the reasons I have lost my faith. If I rememer my primary school catechism correctly it is worth sacrificing everything to save just one sinner, and yet here they are damning people who live righteously and worship in their own traditions as they were raised.....you people are what is worng with organised religion. The sooner you realise it, the better for the instituions you claim to support (blindly).
Peace out

How could I help save a sinner by condoning false relgion? The truth shall set you free. The charitable thing to do for a sinner is to introduce him/her to Christ as the source of all good/peace/love/salvation etc. It would be wrong of a Christian not to tell someone that yoga etc won't save your soul.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

How could I help save a sinner by condoning false relgion? The truth shall set you free. The charitable thing to do for a sinner is to introduce him/her to Christ as the source of all good/peace/love/salvation etc. It would be wrong of a Christian not to tell someone that yoga etc won't save your soul.

Right, I'm just imagining you arriving at the scene of an Air India plane crash.

"What? Your legs are trapped and you're in extreme pain?

Well, have you ever heard of a man called jesus......."

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

No, I think the contradiction is in what you are choosing to read between the lines.

In the first quote Jesus does not deny that He is God. His words can have either of the following meanings:
a) Why do you call me good when only God is good? I am not God, therefore I am not good?
b) Why do you call me good when only God is good, yet you fail to acknowledge me as God? Can't you see that if I am good then I am also God?

If a) is correct then Jesus would be contradicting Himself. If b) is correct then there is no contradiction except in your own head.

I think the best way to figure out the meanings is look at the context:

18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
18:26 And they that heard [it] said, Who then can be saved?
18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

He isn't trying to convince anyone he is god, (in fact he seems to say it in passing) and the point of his discusiion is to tell the man what is required to get into heaven.

PDN wrote: »

I have pointed out that Mark edited what Jesus said by omitting a part of Jesus' speech that was irrelevant to his purpose. This does not in any way suggest that anyone added to the words of Jesus. To claim so is an unwarranted leap of logic.

Akrasia and rockbeer hav already pointed out about lying by omission. What someone means when they say something is entirely dependent on context, if you omit something, thereby changing the context, you change what they mean.

kelly1

rockbeer wrote: »

So if I save a life the act is meaningless and the life saved worthless unless I also happen to believe in god.

Of course God wants everyone to do good regardless of their membership of the Body of Christ. What I'm saying is that good acts are far more meritorious in God's eyes when we are "branches grafted onto the True Vine" i.e. we offer up our good works in union with Christ as a member of His body.

rockbeer wrote: »

Doesn't the tale of the good samaritan have something to say about this?

The story of the good Samarithan shows us how we should act regardless of our religion or the state of our souls. Good acts always bring us nearer to God. They open a door for God to enter.

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

I won't know for certain that I'm right until I'm dead but it's a very strong conviction of mine. One of the reasons I believe in Jesus is that the more I work to do His will, the more peace and grace I feel.

Ok, i understand that - honestly i do, but everyone believes in their own faith as the one true faith.. and argueing it or being pushy (please dont be offended) will not be doing any good.
Jesus will apreciate your faith even if do not to spread it - wont he? (i imagine he would)

kelly1 wrote: »

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

i kinda dunno what to say to that.. You just cant say that every belief other than your is self dilusion.. its just wrong. Coz nobody has proof of their beliefs - apart from the pagans who worship the elements and physical things they can point at and say " i worship that sun there, the one burning your skin".

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're saying. What's possible?

Its possible to commune with the dead and have visions of the future. Clear ones at that. Its just that its against christian beliefs ... thats all my point was on that..

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

Our good works only have value and merit when we are done in union with Jesus and in a state of grace.

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course God wants everyone to do good regardless of their membership of the Body of Christ.

So which is it?

kelly1 wrote: »

The story of the good Samarithan shows us how we should act regardless of our religion or the state of our souls. Good acts always bring us nearer to God. They open a door for God to enter.

The story of the good samaritan surely demonstrates that in Jesus' eyes the action was more important than the religion of the actor - in direct contradiction to your argument that good acts are worthwhile and meaningful only when carried "in a state of grace".

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

Malari

Wicknight wrote: »

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

That's what I wanted to know. I mean the holy spirit is pretty specific. If you had gone to Mecca do you think you'd be a muslim now?

Mark Hamill

kelly1 wrote: »

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

Assume for a minute that God is a false deity. Do you think insert deity of choice would do something to give you the impression that God is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of God comes from insert evil entity of choice or self-delusion.

Your point works backwards too.

kelly1

all the stars wrote: »

Jesus will apreciate your faith even if do not to spread it - wont he? (i imagine he would)

Jesus asks us all to preach the gospel and that doesn't necessarily mean standing on a soapbox in Stephen's green. We can also preach by our actions. As St Francis said "Preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words".

all the stars wrote: »

Its possible to commune with the dead and have visions of the future. Clear ones at that. Its just that its against christian beliefs ... thats all my point was on that..

It's very rare that God allows the dead to communicate with us but if they're not in Purgatory or Heaven, you can be sure they're not good spirits. So called mediums like John Edwards, if they're actually communicating with spirits, can only be demons. If he is in fact communicating with spirits, the purpose of their communication would be to lure people into a false sense of security. There's no mention of heaven, hell or judgement, just an afterlife where everyone goes.

As for telling the future, only God knows the future. Satan can only make an intelligent guess. Prophesy is a gift of the Holy Spirit and is only given to Christians. That's not to say that the Spirit does operate in the souls of others. The Spirit is always trying to draw us to truth.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

There's no way the devil is going to lead someone into Christianity.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

There's no way the devil is going to lead someone into Christianity.

Er, ok.

How do you know this?

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

There's no way the devil is going to lead someone into Christianity.

Fred Phelps?

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, ok.

How do you know this?

For God's sake, don't you know by now that this is my faith. You know I can't prove this scientifically, don't you? So why even ask (yet again)?

It is my belief and core conviction that Jesus in the only Son of God and that Satan is His sworn enemy so Satan isn't going to do Jesus' work, is he?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

For God's sake, don't you know by now that this is my faith. You know I can't prove this scientifically, don't you? So why even ask (yet again)?

I'm not asking you to prove anything, "scientifically" or otherwise.

I'm asking you how do you know what you are asserting. It is relevant because you are claiming that others who assert things about their religion are working under a deception.

Do you have some better system to work out that your belief isn't a deception than they do?

kelly1 wrote: »

It is my belief and core conviction that Jesus in the only Son of God and that Satan is His sworn enemy so Satan isn't going to do Jesus' work, is he?

But you say that others who have a "belief and core conviction" in, say, Buddhism, are being deceived by Satan.

So how do you know you aren't being deceived also?

Mark Hamill

robindch wrote: »

Fred Phelps?

Did a search on him and found: godhatesireland.com.
But everyone loves the Irish

CerebralCortex

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not asking you to prove anything, "scientifically" or otherwise.

I'm asking you how do you know what you are asserting. It is relevant because you are claiming that others who assert things about their religion are working under a deception.

Do you have some better system to work out that your belief isn't a deception than they do?



But you say that others who have a "belief and core conviction" in, say, Buddhism, are being deceived by Satan.

So how do you know you aren't being deceived also?

You do realise you'll never get a convincing answer of Kelly1 for any of those questions he probably won't even respond.

Akrasia

Malari wrote: »

That's what I wanted to know. I mean the holy spirit is pretty specific. If you had gone to Mecca do you think you'd be a muslim now?

I think we should all club together and send Noel to Burning Man.

That's a pretty spiritual experience, plus there's naked chicks

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

It's very rare that God allows the dead to communicate with us but if they're not in Purgatory or Heaven, you can be sure they're not good spirits. So called mediums like John Edwards, if they're actually communicating with spirits

They're not, it's all a total scam

, can only be demons. If he is in fact communicating with spirits, the purpose of their communication would be to lure people into a false sense of security. There's no mention of heaven, hell or judgement, just an afterlife where everyone goes.

So if John edwards mentioned heaven and jesus all the time then you'd be prepared to accept that they weren't demons?