Winning the title on Goal Difference.

Töpher

Goal difference is fine, it's straightforward and easy to use, especially if more teams end up on the same number of points. Taking England again as an example, at one stage you could conceivably have have 3 or 4 teams vying for 5th place in the PL ending on the same number of points - how do head to heads sort that out, realistically?

citytillidie

BaZmO* wrote: »

Still another game to go people, mightn't need goal difference to decide it. And besides, I don't think GD is a particularly bad way to decide the winners. If it's good enough to get you relegated it's good to get you the title.

I think the only reason that head to head results are used in European & World Cup qualifiers is because teams quite often finish on the same points due to the relative small amount of games each country plays. Whereas in something like the PL, playing 38 games in a season teams are less likely to finish on the same points.

They do it in only leagues to I.E Spain

BaZmO*

citytillidie wrote: »

They do it in only leagues to I.E Spain

I know that, I was just giving the reason as to why I think they use head to heads for the WC & Euros.

eirebhoy

Celtic lost the league in 2003 by 1 goal. If Celtic win their last 2 games this season, and Rangers win 4 and draw 1... Celtic can win the league this season on goal difference.

Unearthly

Nothing wrong with goal difference.

Helps the team who can score more goals than concede which is refreshing.

gucci

Of course the difference is who wins the title. I can imagine if it was Liverpool who won the title on goal difference there would be lots of jokes about how lucky it was etc, just like the 2005 Champions league.



id settle for liverpool to win the league on number of hot dogs sold at anfield at this stage

rossie1977

what i find funny is that the team with the most defeats in the top 4 i.e. Man Utd will more than likely take the title, that must be a first, liverpool have lost less games than Man Utd in the league

What is also remarkable is that combined the top 4 have lost just 15 games all season spanning 148 games. Those stats make even worse reading for those chasing when you take into account that:
2 of liverpools four defeats were by Man Utd
Man utd lost to chelsea and vice versa
arsenal lost to chelsea and vice versa
arsenal lost to man utd

meaning................

outside of the games played against each other this season

the top four have lost just 8 games between them against the other 16 teams spanning an incredible 136 games

for the record those 8 defeats were:

West ham 1-0 liverpool (last second penalty deep into injury time)
Reading 3-1 liverpool
Aston Villa 2-0 chelsea (way back on September 2nd, meaning Grant has not lost to a team outside the top four in the league)
Man Utd 1-2 Man City
West Ham 2-1 Man Utd
Bolton 1-0 Man Utd
Man City 1-0 Man Utd
Middlesbrough 2-1 Arsenal

BaZmO*

gucci wrote: »

Of course the difference is who wins the title. I can imagine if it was Liverpool who won the title on goal difference there would be lots of jokes about how lucky it was etc, just like the 2005 Champions league.

Well there's no fear of that happening any time soon so I wouldn't worry too much about it!

gucci wrote: »

id settle for liverpool to win the league on number of hot dogs sold at anfield at this stage

rossie1977

the current league table if there were 2 points for a win, interesting......

Chelsea W:25 D:9 L:3 GD:39 Pt:59
Man Utd W:26 D:6 L:5 GD:56 Pt:58
Arsenal W:23 D:11 L:3 GD:42 Pt:57
Liverpool W:20 D:13 L:4 GD:37 Pt:53

Now what a final day we would have in store if it were back to 2 points for a win

kida

rossie1977 wrote: »

what i find funny is that the team with the most defeats in the top 4 i.e. Man Utd will more than likely take the title, that must be a first, liverpool have lost less games than Man Utd in the league

Yu don't win the league by losing less but by winning more

Unearthly

rossie1977 wrote: »

the current league table if there were 2 points for a win, interesting......

Chelsea W:25 D:9 L:3 GD:39 Pt:59
Man Utd W:26 D:6 L:5 GD:56 Pt:58
Arsenal W:23 D:11 L:3 GD:42 Pt:57
Liverpool W:20 D:13 L:4 GD:37 Pt:53

Now what a final day we would have in store if it were back to 2 points for a win

Isn't it ironic how Arsenal are better off in the old system of points when it was set to be favouring defensive teams

rossie1977

kida wrote: »

Yu don't win the league by losing less but by winning more

you could easily win the league by not winning more games, so its incorrect to say you win the league by winning more games

e.g P:38 W:25 D:10 L:3 Pt:85

>

P:38 W:26 D:6 L:6 Pt:84

man utd only lead chelsea because they scored in the last minute against blackburn and spurs and chelsea dropped points in the last minute against villa, spurs and wigan, fine margins; thats five separate results (five draws) that have gone man utds way which could so easily have gone chelseas or at least half gone chelseas and then the league would already be over.

Eirebear

rossie1977 wrote: »

man utd only lead chelsea because they scored in the last minute against blackburn and spurs and chelsea dropped points in the last minute against villa, spurs and wigan, fine margins; thats five separate results (five draws) that have gone man utds way which could so easily have gone chelseas or at least half gone chelseas and then the league would already be over.

But they didnt.....so it isnt......

A football match is played over 90 minutes. it doesnt matter when you score, it still counts.

You dont hear people walking about saying...Ah FFS we would have won the league if Chelsea hadnt scored that blasted 57th minute goal against Arsenal do you?

_blank_

If my aunty had balls.

United lead chelsea by virtue of the fact they have scored more, and conceded less, goals.

leninbenjamin

personally i think a play-off is a fairer solution, but considering the fixture congestion already it's an impossibility. as for head to head versus goal difference, i personally prefer goal difference. a head to head isn't always a fair reflection on the season, due to injury crises, or as happened Chelsea this year being disorganised due to change of management. that's why i think goal difference is fairer, it's at least something that is accumulated over the course of the season, and from a consumer's viewpoint goals are to be encouraged. so yeah, i think goal difference is fair.

Eirebear

leninbenjamin wrote: »

personally i think a play-off is a fairer solution, but considering the fixture congestion already it's an impossibility. as for head to head versus goal difference, i personally prefer goal difference. a head to head isn't always a fair reflection on the season, due to injury crises, or as happened Chelsea this year being disorganised due to change of management. that's why i think goal difference is fairer, it's at least something that is accumulated over the course of the season, and from a consumer's viewpoint goals are to be encouraged. so yeah, i think goal difference is fair.

Huh?!

BaZmO*

rossie1977 wrote: »

man utd only lead chelsea because they scored in the last minute against blackburn and spurs and chelsea dropped points in the last minute against villa, spurs and wigan, fine margins; thats five separate results (five draws) that have gone man utds way which could so easily have gone chelseas or at least half gone chelseas and then the league would already be over.

Absolute complete and utter nonsense.

Boggles

leninbenjamin wrote: »

personally i think a play-off is a fairer solution, but considering the fixture congestion already it's an impossibility. as for head to head versus goal difference, i personally prefer goal difference. a head to head isn't always a fair reflection on the season, due to injury crises, or as happened Chelsea this year being disorganised due to change of management. that's why i think goal difference is fairer, it's at least something that is accumulated over the course of the season, and from a consumer's viewpoint goals are to be encouraged. so yeah, i think goal difference is fair.

Double Huh!!!

CHD

leninbenjamin wrote: »

personally i think a play-off is a fairer solution, but considering the fixture congestion already it's an impossibility. as for head to head versus goal difference, i personally prefer goal difference. a head to head isn't always a fair reflection on the season, due to injury crises, or as happened Chelsea this year being disorganised due to change of management. that's why i think goal difference is fairer, it's at least something that is accumulated over the course of the season, and from a consumer's viewpoint goals are to be encouraged. so yeah, i think goal difference is fair.

you had a good old debate with yourself writing that!

leninbenjamin

chdpoker wrote: »

you had a good old debate with yourself writing that!

I meant playoffs in an ideal world fools, which i already ruled out because of fixture congestion (which is the prime cause of temporary imbalances in teams in the modern football league should i have to state the bleedin' obvious) . :pac:

so in an ideal world i'd prefer playoffs > head to head > goal difference. but given reality i think the status quo is the best solution.

Mad_Max

rossie1977 wrote: »

man utd only lead chelsea because they scored in the last minute against blackburn and spurs and chelsea dropped points in the last minute against villa, spurs and wigan, fine margins; thats five separate results (five draws) that have gone man utds way which could so easily have gone chelseas or at least half gone chelseas and then the league would already be over.

Eh... Didn't chelsea secure last minute points against utd that otherwise would have seen the league (practically) over by now. Pointless statement.

LuckyLloyd

Just because the default is there and it's what people have always done doesn't mean that it is the best method / option available. This goes for all walks of life.

I personally think that a head to head record check like they use in Spain is the fairest solution. I think a two - legged playoff at the end would be epic - but it is two extra games at the end of a long season so there may be problems with the players union before that could be instigated.

Goal difference can depend on outside factors like whether the opposition has a man sent off; is struggling with an injury crises at that particular time; is still in the running for something at that particular time, etc, etc. The luck of the fixture schedule should not have a bearing on where the title goes at the end of the year imo.

Additionally, a line that goes something like: "everyone knew where they stood at the start of the season" is kinda irrelevant too. If either of the alternatives were introduced for next year then everyone would know where they stand before the new season kicks off!!

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Just because the default is there and it's what people have always done doesn't mean that it is the best method / option available. This goes for all walks of life.

I personally think that a head to head record check like they use in Spain is the fairest solution. I think a two - legged playoff at the end would be epic - but it is two extra games at the end of a long season so there may be problems with the players union before that could be instigated.

Goal difference can depend on outside factors like whether the opposition has a man sent off; is struggling with an injury crises at that particular time; is still in the running for something at that particular time, etc, etc. The luck of the fixture schedule should not have a bearing on where the title goes at the end of the year imo.

Additionally, a line that goes something like: "everyone knew where they stood at the start of the season" is kinda irrelevant too. If either of the alternatives were introduced for next year then everyone would know where they stand before the new season kicks off!!

What if 3 teams finish level?

ROCKMAN

Boggles wrote: »

What if 3 teams finish level?

With all their heads up games finishing 1-1

By the way does it not go to heads up results if Points and Goal Difference finish the same??

Mitch Connor

ROCKMAN wrote: »

With all their heads up games finishing 1-1

By the way does it not go to heads up results if Points and Goal Difference finish the same??

if points are the same it goes to GD, if GD is also the same it goes to head to head results, if they are the same it goes to a play-off, i think.

Eirebear

Tried and tested, Goal difference is fine with me.

A play off would be an amazing spectacle, but it would also be like a cup final...leagues are played over a set amount of games and shouldnt involve knock out style scenarios.

Also making it a two legged affair, never mind the players...what about the fans who have spent a fortune following their teams all season already?

Head to head gos against the whole point of a league for me also.

The other teams in the league have a say, why should it be discounted at the end?

smcelhinney

Im sorry, its probably already been said here, but that sounds uncannily like bitter Chelsea-speak to me. Im with Eirebear, tried and tested.

We cant change the rules every season (ala that Liverpool Champions League fiasco 2 years ago) to suit everyone who feels hard done by.

Probably no secret Im a Man U fan, but I can guarantee you that if the roles were reversed, I wouldnt be looking for a rule change, and there's many in the same boat as me.

LuckyLloyd

smcelhinney wrote: »

Im sorry, its probably already been said here, but that sounds uncannily like bitter Chelsea-speak to me. Im with Eirebear, tried and tested.

We cant change the rules every season (ala that Liverpool Champions League fiasco 2 years ago) to suit everyone who feels hard done by.

Probably no secret Im a Man U fan, but I can guarantee you that if the roles were reversed, I wouldnt be looking for a rule change, and there's many in the same boat as me.

You guys still win the title on a heads up scenario anyway!! I just think that it is the fact that Utd have the better record over the two matches between them and Chelsea is what makes them worthy winners. Not the fact that they scored more goals.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

long as Bruce and his boys dont roll over we could all be celebrating a Chelsea double on the 21st!

Celebrating? You're gonna go out on the piss and party up if the Renties win something? Some fan you are, I just wouldnt watch the match if it were Cheslea Liverpool final!

Mr Alan wrote: »

Not really.

I doubt you'd be loving the idea of a Liverpool win in the CL final if it were against Chelsea!

Next year Liverpool and Getafe are gonna run amuck. FACT.

Suppose its that time of year again when those 3 words go in the same sentence constantly!



And FYI its gonna be Villareal and Portsmouths years next year!

DSB

Amn't reading back 6 pages to see if this has been already said, but I'd consider goal difference a perfectly good measure, nice reward for Man Utd for actually bothering to play nice football.

Necronomicon

For anyone who doesn't want to wade through pages of debate, I'd like to point this out:

Iago wrote: »

Best Goal Difference United
Most Goals Scored United
Least Goals Conceded United
Better Head to Head United
Best record against top 3 United

Chelsea can feel unlucky if they lose the title on goal difference, but if United do go on and win, I don't think anyone can say they don't deserve it with the above in mind.

An Citeog

DSB wrote: »

Amn't reading back 6 pages to see if this has been already said, but I'd consider goal difference a perfectly good measure, nice reward for Man Utd for actually bothering to play nice football.

+1

The head-to-head ruling in Italy and Spain is an anti-corruption measure. Madrid won the title last year on head-to-head, even though Barça had a far superior goal difference. That's just the way it is there and particularly in Italy as there's a perfectly valid reason for it. Thankfully that problem doesn't seem to exist in England, so I don't really see the point in changing it.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

What if 3 teams finish level?

Also, the answer here is very obvious no? I'm sure you'll work it out.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, the answer here is very obvious no? I'm sure you'll work it out.

Ammm no, help me out.

astrofool

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You guys still win the title on a heads up scenario anyway!! I just think that it is the fact that Utd have the better record over the two matches between them and Chelsea is what makes them worthy winners. Not the fact that they scored more goals.

I'm sure if Chelsea knew they could go top of the league by beating Utd by more than two goals, the match score would have been different.

Teams play to what the rules are, both teams knew this, and Utd managed to build up the goal difference knowing this (they were well down at the beginning of the season after all the 1-0 wins). Chelsea were going through some turmoil post Mourinho, and never got the momentum going to steamroll teams, giving Utd the advantage.

Of course, nothing is stopping Chelsea winning the league on points

jesus_thats_gre

Goal difference is fair.

764dak

Goal difference is the best indicator. Some people even say goal difference is better than points.

http://arxivblog.com/?p=302

The_Kew_Tour

Points system has never been questioned for over 100 years. Changing it to 3 points for a win sorted out the minor problems

Its fine the way it is thank you very much.

UpTheSlashers

Is this Throwback Thursday or something?

764dak

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Points system has never been questioned for over 100 years. Changing it to 3 points for a win sorted out the minor problems

Its fine the way it is thank you very much.

What minor problems did it solve?

Lovely Bloke

old thread is old

The_Kew_Tour

764dak wrote: »

What minor problems did it solve?

Some teams at certain times playing for draws more like in WC etc.

Take Irelands World Cup group in Italia 90 as example.

messinkiapina

If the league finished next weekend and Spurs won 1-0, Liverpool drew 1-1. That would leave Spurs with a +2 total difference, Liverpool with +25. If Liverpool had to face Spurs in a playoff in that instance, I'd be seriously pissed off!

A little different to what you're asking, I know! But I think goal difference, or even the aggregate results of the game played against each other is fairer than a playoff. For a neutral, playoff is much more fun though!

764dak

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Some teams at certain times playing for draws more like in WC etc.

Take Irelands World Cup group in Italia 90 as example.

Teams that are leading by a goal have more of an incentive to play defensively.

http://www.econstor.eu/obitstream/10419/25576/1/572177976.PDF

http://cafefutebol.net/2013/09/11/why-three-points-for-a-win-is-a-loss-for-football-a-closer-look-into-one-of-the-most-important-rules-in-football-history/