Rules of the Road

kc66

I have a couple of questions to do with driving and rules of the road. I have drawn a very rough diagram of 2 scenarios. These have possibly been asked before but I want to find out what should be done if this was the test. These are 2 scenarios in Navan and I have spoken to a few instructors with different opinions.

1: There is a one-way street with 2 lanes. Traffic lights at the junction at the top of the road. There is an adjoining road from the left 20m before the lights. There is a yellow box at this junction, the only obvious reason is to allow cars to get out from the adjoining road when traffic is stopped for the lights. The rules of the road state you should only stop on a yellow box if you are turning right. Should you pull out onto the yellow box if the traffic is stopped (you are turning left)? If not then what is the point of the box?

2: 2 lanes of traffic both sides of the road. There is a junction with a left turn and a right turn and traffic lights. There is a yellow box in the junction as shown in the diagram. You are entitled to pull out and stop at on the box. If the lights change to red what should you do? You are blocking traffic coming from the right if you stay. Breaking a red light if you go.

Diagram

Cionád

kc66 wrote: »

2: 2 lanes of traffic both sides of the road. There is a junction with a left turn and a right turn and traffic lights. There is a yellow box in the junction as shown in the diagram. You are entitled to pull out and stop at on the box. If the lights change to red what should you do? You are blocking traffic coming from the right if you stay. Breaking a red light if you go.

Diagram

I don't think you are breaking the red light if you have already passed the white line at the junction, so I would continue on red (as long as the traffic coming the opposite way has stopped. Even if it was an offense, its a far worse offense to be stuck in the middle of the road obstructing traffic imo.

For the other scenario (1), I would pull out into the yellow box turning left if there are cars stopped just before it. I know they are supposed to be just for turning right in the rules of the road booklet but i would reason that as the cars have stopped before the yellow box they have acknowledged your presence and would therefor deem it safe to do so.

Alun

Cionád wrote: »

I don't think you are breaking the red light if you have already passed the white line at the junction, so I would continue on red (as long as the traffic coming the opposite way has stopped. Even if it was an offence, its a far worse offence to be stuck in the middle of the road obstructing traffic imo.

Correct. Traffic lights only control the entrance to a junction, not it's exit. The lights on the other side of the junction are just repeaters of the lights at the entrance, for convenience only, not traffic lights in their own right, if you get my meaning.

Spud83

1: There is a one-way street with 2 lanes. Traffic lights at the junction at the top of the road. There is an adjoining road from the left 20m before the lights. There is a yellow box at this junction, the only obvious reason is to allow cars to get out from the adjoining road when traffic is stopped for the lights. The rules of the road state you should only stop on a yellow box if you are turning right. Should you pull out onto the yellow box if the traffic is stopped (you are turning left)? If not then what is the point of the box?

I would pull out, however I might wait until the traffic begins to move before pulling into the yellow box therefore minimizing the time you spend stopped in the yellow box.

However by the law I believe you should wait behind the stop line, and hope that the driver before the yellow box lets you out.

2: 2 lanes of traffic both sides of the road. There is a junction with a left turn and a right turn and traffic lights. There is a yellow box in the junction as shown in the diagram. You are entitled to pull out and stop at on the box. If the lights change to red what should you do? You are blocking traffic coming from the right if you stay. Breaking a red light if you go.

In this scenario only one car should move into the yellow box on a green light. All other cars should remain behind the stop line. The car in the yellow box has "taken control of the junction". If the light turns red the car in the yellow box still has control of the junction and should complete there turn.

The important thing to remember here is that only one car should pass the stop line at any one time. You often see a queue of people moving up when they should be waiting for either a green arrow or wait for the car infront to complete there turn.

BrianD3

Scenario 1: it would seem that the only reason the box is there is to facilitate traffic turning left out of the side road. However it is stated in the ROTR (the old one anway) that you may only stop in a yellow box when turning right AND if you are only blocked from progressing by oncoming traffic or by other right turning vehicles.

There was a big can of worms about this scenario in this forum a few years back.

Scenario 2: Easier, you have entered the junction/yellow box legally and as others have said you are "in control of the junction" and may proceed even if the light turns red, however you must be aware of other road users especially pedestrians who may have a green man .

kc66

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I would pull out, however I might wait until the traffic begins to move before pulling into the yellow box therefore minimizing the time you spend stopped in the yellow box.

However by the law I believe you should wait behind the stop line, and hope that the driver before the yellow box lets you out.

Its hard to know what to do in the test. You could get a fault for delaying traffic. Its a grey area and probably depends on the tester you get. I think I would wait until the lights are green and traffic is about to move off and then edge out.

Wishbone Ash

1. No obstruction could be caused by stopping in the box anyway as both lanes and the traffic from the left are all going in the same direction and cannot move anyway until the way ahead is clear.

A possible reason for the yellow box is that the two lanes are for different directions. A driver exiting from the left may need to get into the right hand lane for the lights ahead.

2. I reiterate what others have said in relation to control of the junction.

(Just because traffic from the opposite direction gets a green light, that does not mean they can proceed. They must also wait until their way is clear).

Wishbone Ash

kc66 wrote: »

Its a grey area and probably depends on the tester you get

Test routes usually avoid 'grey areas' and if they have them, the candidate is usually given the benefit of the doubt. There are never any 'trick' scenarios.

t-ha

kc66 wrote: »

Its hard to know what to do in the test. You could get a fault for delaying traffic. Its a grey area and probably depends on the tester you get. I think I would wait until the lights are green and traffic is about to move off and then edge out.

Simple advise for a driving test is 'it's better to pick up a grade 2 fault than a grade 3 fault'. If the tester thought you should've gone but you didn't it's a grade 2 fault - no biggy as you can get alot of them and still pass. If you do pull out and the tester thinks you shouldn't have then you could be looking at a grade 3 fault which would be an automatic fail. Always play it safe on test day.

Echelle

Whats the situation nlegally with the following?
cyclist cycling on pedestrian crossing? should the cyclist be treated as a pedestrian or should he dismount for a car to stop for him?

peasant

Echelle wrote: »

Whats the situation nlegally with the following?
cyclist cycling on pedestrian crossing? should the cyclist be treated as a pedestrian or should he dismount for a car to stop for him?

Does it really matter? You can't just mow him down either way.

"But guard ...he was cycling and not walking, so I saw no legal reason to stop"

Steve

Situation 1 is yet another example of bad planning and inappropriate placement of road signs in this country.

In this case, it is clear that the intention of the engineer involved was to facilitate drivers exiting the side road, it does not seem to have any meaning within the ROTR though.

The rules are simple: do not enter the box unless the exit is clear except if you are turning right.
From the diagram, there is no possible right turn from within the box.