FCP Conference this week

Sparks

Thanks guys, nice to know it's appreciated, they're talking about stalking down the boards.ie people here and giving us special badges

Back to it...

fishdog

nice to know it's appreciated

It really is. Thanks!

ditpaintball

Can you sneak in a questions about the whole 1 joule thing, specifically in relation paintball markers. Will they the be removed from the firearms act

Keep up the good work.

bunny shooter

WTF. Sure they aren't involved in this process

Vegeta

fishdog wrote: »

It really is. Thanks!

I second this

Sparks

Similar hassles when Gardai started having to stamp forms for passports - most people just don't know their local Gardai.
Also, districts are changing come July, so the district you're in now may not be your district in August.
(District boundaries are moving to follow county borders).

Gardai are now bound to follow all the laws and if they don't it's a disciplinary offence.

This is the first time that an act has been amended (by the actions of the FCP) before it's even fully implemented.

Case law is important as the oireactas can't decide what parts of the law has more weight than others, and so forth. This is standard for all garda activities.

In short, firearms licencing isn't straightforward for the Gardai because of this.

Talking about Section 4:
"shall" and "may" are worlds apart in this area for Gardai...
"and" is not a small word!

(Most of all of this is stuff everyone here knows, but this is it seen from the Gardai's perspective.)

The gardai know that they're generally seen as getting in the way between people and their shooting, and that they bristle off the shooting community, but it's a role they're required to take up by law.

O'Leary's judgement cited.

The judgement in Dunne v Donohoe was of immense impact within the Gardai because of the explicit persona designata status that resulted.

Sparks

Having minor network problems, bear with me

Difficulty in interpreting some things in the legislation ("what's an intemperate habit?")

Only real way to get uniformity is to have one person make all the decisions for all licences!
Can't be done. No best practise is identified, no set guidelines, nothing is there for the superintdents to make their decisions.

The upcoming guidelines will give advice and best practise notes to supers, but it won't be an order - it will be advice, no more.
The section relevant to that isn't enacted yet either so these haven't gone out yet.

Guidance as given by associations to applicants? That's grand if it's presenting the important information better so that an applicant with real merit is distinguishable from someone applying on a whim.
The decision will always have to be subjective - numerical methods aren't feasible. So presentation counts.
Having proof of a good reason is a good thing.

Up until a few years ago, only .22 and shotguns had to be dealt with - so the Gardai are not experts on the wide range of stuff out there now, and they shouldn't have to be, but the supers do need to have some knowlege sufficient to make the licence/no-licence decision.

The lad at the desk telling you "erra, no problem with that" doesn't have the authority to say that, he's just trying to be helpful (but ultimately isn't). Only the super has that authority.

Will not discuss individual cases because it's not fair (he wouldn't know the details or the people involved).


Note that district court appeals are held in public, there is no in camera facility. That's not intended as a deterrent, but just as a note.

Sparks

Now an open forum for discussion.


Irish Deer Society to Clarke - More questions posed than answers given. On appeals, if I'm refused, is it not possible to request in writing the reasons why?
Clarke - The 2006 Act obliges that to be done, but it's not commenced yet, but most supers are doing so already.
IDS - public appeals to the DC would lead to information in the public domain; that has the appearance of being unpleasant;
Clarke - not intended as such, the super will maintain confidentiality where he can but in the DC he hasn't got that option.
Surrey Police representative - the rejection letter in the UK contains whatever will become public in the case of an appeal for the information of the applicant to facilitate their decision.


Des Crofton - An observation: there's a lot of emphasis on the persona designata status, but the discretion conferred on the persona is not limitless but bounded by the law.


Firearms Dealer - some people are coming in buying stuff where they don't know what it is, what it's for or whether it's suitable and so it's needed for the dealer to be more proactive and responsible and to maintain active communications with their superintendets.

Sparks

DIT, there's already a question on the muzzle energy limit and possibly raising that on my list for workshop 3.

Sparks

Discussion on some individual cases with recalitrant supers and such - dealers having to confront supers with the law.
Clarke - there are some gardai who aren't perfect but we're trying to move forward on this and we're on a steep learning curve after the reintroduction of pistols and fullbore.

Sparks

Discussion on large firearms such as .375 H&H rifles for safari. UK perspective is, if you can pay for it (and the secure storage we'll ask for), okay.
Expanding ammo discussed - UK law won't allow an exception for it to be used except on deer and vermin, so if you're training for buffalo, you can't use expanding ammo, because there's nothing in the UK to use it on legally.


- Why is there a per-calibre restriction (on, for example, a .375)?
UK - it's restricted because it's designed to be used on things that don't exist in the UK.

packas

Hi Sparks,

Is there any talk of the letter published in the ISD by DOJ regarding target shooting. As you're aware that may have huge implications for some target shooting styles.

Pat.

Sparks

Rovi now asking, can we do one man one licence?

GB - I don't know. Still dealing with 2006. There's scope for much more efficiency and the system's evolving. Not in the immediate future though. There are IT-related problems. Countries like NZ or the like with that system have more advanced IT systems than we do. Lets get through the 2006 act and then work on that.
Rovi - many people would find it far more convienent, if they had one bit of paper with several licences.

Breaking now for lunch.

Sparks

Packas, that's probably going to come up in workshop 3, but I'll try to get an informal answer before then - but there's a hundred people here or more, and GB's trying to talk to all of them!

packas

cheers Sparks. BTW great great work you're doing.

Sparks

And we return with the presentation from FACE...

Sparks

Asked informally about the IPSA presence btw, and not great news - I'm told that invitations were not forthcoming because the DoJ did not want to get involved in internal politics in the shooting community. Which isn't a wonderful answer to listen to, but on the other hand, I'm told that the IPSA were met and will be met and they would like for all areas to be represented, but there are issues there and they'll have to work them out. (Can we push discussion of that to another thread? I can't touchtype notes and talk about it easily).

Sparks

Discussion on the amendments to the EFP directive that we mentioned in boards earlier. The directive is passed, but the ink's not dry yet and as of when Yves left the office yesterday hadn't been published yet. It's about 91/477/EEC, which is the EU version of the Firearms Act 1925. The point of the directive that he's talking about, which amended 91, was to allow for honest civilian ownership but prevent criminal and arms dealership abuses.

FACE had a lot of input into the drafting the directive. The scope of which is restricted to civilian ownership - not collectors, not armed forces. Antiques are not specified but are regarded as pre-1899. Practically, the scope is marksmen (shooting sports) and hunters. It has nothing to do with national laws on carrying or licencing of firearms. The EU has no legal competence for hunting, and only restricted competence in civilan ownership.

Sparks

The main contents of the directive are a minimum level of hamonisation between nations for legislation, simplified transfer procedures and the europass.

On the harmonisation, note that member states are entitled to take more stringent measures than the EU legislation provides for.

4 firearm classifications -
a) prohibited (automatic firearms) - but can be licenced individually by member states
b) authorisation (handguns, short pump-action shotguns, semiauto rifles and shotguns with more than 2 rounds)
c) decleration (all other rifles, semi auto or repeating shotguns)
d) no specific requirement (single-shot, side-by-side/over-under shotgun)

Firearms in C and D deserve a less stringent regieme. (these are almost all the firearms used in hunting)

Sparks

FACE is in favour of this classification scheme but only a few member states implement the system fully. Some have a more restrictive legislation. France is fully aligned with the scheme, so you could buy anything you want in C, just tell the police later (within 15 days); and in D whenever and don't need to report. This doesn't impact on safety.

The Netherlands is far more restrictive. So is the UK. Not mentioning Ireland as we know better than he does

3 conditions for acquisition and possession of firearms:
1) good cause
2) not likely to be a danger to themselves to public order or to public safety (this now reads "hasn't been convicted of a violent crime" and generally makes this more clear. Does not make reference to medical or psychological tests)
3) at least 18 years old except for hunting or target shooting

Sparks

Current directive text won't let an under-18 buy a firearm, but will let them acquire them through other means (gift, inheritance, etc); and to possess and use them (And parental permission or parental guidance or guidance of another adult with a valid licence is needed - or being a licenced training facility)

Sparks

Ammunition - only prohibition is penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles (penetrating meaning armour piercing). Expanding ammo allowed for hunting. No restrictions on calibre or muzzle energy, but hunting law can impose minimum standards.

Sparks

Movement of firearms
intra-community movement between dealers - just declare the transfers.

Europass
The point of the EFP is to prevent shooters being treated as criminals while transiting through airports and such. Idea put forward by FACE. fully accepted by almost all member states. Exceptions in practise - luxembourg, sweden, the UK, and Ireland. In eastern europe, it's fully accepted as the sole document needed.

Requirements for moving with a firearm are that you have a reason for the journey (say, an invitation to a match), a europass, and that the firearms be legal in the destination state. More flexible rules can be adopted between states, or more restrictive ones (eg Norway has fully recognised the EFP, but between the four nordic states, the EFP isn't needed for moving crossborder, just your national licence).

Most member states don't foresee specific formalities for visiting hunters past carrying the EFP; other states need the firearm declared at the point of entry. Practically, that system's a bit heavy on red tape.

In Ireland, lots of problems - sending the original EFP to the authorities is a bit daft. The new Directive does not allow the member state to charge a fee for the EFP.

Sparks

In practise in Ireland, it's harder to get from EU to Ireland with a firearm than to go from Russia or Afghanistan to an EU country! This is obviously unfair.
The hope is that this can be fixed - the start is just sending a copy of the EFP instead of the original for entry.

Sparks

"nowhere in the EU can we see a link from crime to [legally held] firearms"


Final conclusion is that the amended directive functions well, we can live with it and it's a decent bit of legislation.

Sparks

Next talk - approval of rifle and muzzle loading pistol clubs

Sparks

He's an ex-police officer (chief superintendent level) in surrey. Retired, took on the civilian licencing management stuff.
Not a poacher turned gamekeeper or vice versa, but fallen in between both camps.

Brief history recap - UK law starts with the firearms act 1968. Amended a lot since then. The 1988 Hungerford shooting led to major changes, because Ryan held his firearms legally. This led to the ban of multishot rifles/shotguns and was the start of the draconian rules. Dunblane led to the complete handgun ban, with the general election playing into it.

Gunter Mauser

Any discussion off topic as regards the use of abandoned / partially used or segmented sectioned off parts of Military ranges for civilian target shooters. Are all Military ranges in the UK for Military use only or can civilians also have access. If anyone can answer from the FCP, can this option can be looked at. Sparks takes it live line. Well done.

Sparks

Millions of pounds were paid in compensation arising from the ban - pistols, reloading presses, safes, everything that was used in pistol shooting was compensated. Far exceeded budget estimates.

Most recent changes (brought in under the anti-social behaviour act, and that was received as well as we received the firearms act being amended in the criminal justice act) banned the brocock air pistols. Age for possessing airguns was upped to 17, and then more changes came in in the Violent Crime Reduction act (again, the title not well received). Airguns have to be sold by dealers only, and only face to face, and the age was upped to 18, and other restrictions were brought in on shooting airguns. Primer sales were restricted to only those with firearms licences. There was also a restriction (yet untested) on "realistic imitation firearms" - what that is isn't readily clear, but airsoft would qualify. If it's brightly coloured or transparant, sure you can buy it, but if it's black, nope. (You can own them if you have them already, but not import or sell them)

Sparks

Discussion on the smallbore pistols used in the UK (ISSF Free pistol longarm pistols and similar stuff).

(This chap was the person in charge of licencing for the commonwealth games and is advising on the Olympics licencing by the way, and his take on using these in crime was that no self-respecting criminal would ever be seen dead using an ISSF free pistol )