London Siege

metman

Armed siege here last night.

kaizersoze1980

yeah heard about that, were you involved metman?

Any idea what set him off?

tintin

A tragedy for all concerned, the mans family and the officers involved...but can you imagine the media frenzy with a likewise incident over here???

Eru

tintin wrote: »

A tragedy for all concerned, the mans family and the officers involved...but can you imagine the media frenzy with a likewise incident over here???

Whats the difference between this and Abbylara?

Man with legally held gun goes crazy and starts shooting at police. After a few hours negotiations he is shot dead.

In London the police storm the house and shoot him and thats ok.

In Ireland the guy leaves the house and is shot as he fires at police but thats not OK.

Disclaimer: Im sure he had issues and its sad that this happened but if you shoot at the police they MUST be allowed put you down.

metman

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Whats the difference between this and Abbylara?

Man with legally held gun goes crazy and starts shooting at police. After a few hours negotiations he is shot dead.

In London the police storm the house and shoot him and thats ok.

In Ireland the guy leaves the house and is shot as he fires at police but thats not OK.

Disclaimer: Im sure he had issues and its sad that this happened but if you shoot at the police they MUST be allowed put you down.

I take your point about public support here and how the Guards are hung drawn and quartered there however the police having to storm the house is pretty tragic really and just to highlight that in any police involved shooting here officers involved will be all suspended from firearms duties while investigations are carried out, both internal and IPCC (GSOC) and face a long road back to operational firearms duty.

In answer to the earlier poster's question, no I wasn't involved in the siege as it wasn't on my ground, and my team was busy trying to arrest an idiot for possession of an uzi.

metman

For those interested in the training of CO19, MetPol's armed response officers, that haven't seen Sky News' mini-series on the OCU look here.

culabula88

seen it before , its fairly good. dont know if the guards are as well trained.

JonAnderton

To second Metmans post, this is just the beginning for the officers involved.

There will be a lot of things going on in their lives right now. The IPCC investigation (which will eventually be made public for all to se via their website) will be part of that. The Post Incident Procedure will kick in and look out for their welfare and make sure everythings covered.

It's not a decision taking lightly and never without good reason...

I recently did a Tactical Refresher which covered tactical movement in buildings (a mere sliver compared to the full search to contact course). I don't envy the search to contact teams at all.. it's tought training and fair play for them for doing it, cos someone has too.

As for public perception, I remember the Hackney seige back in 2002/3. The public hated us and hated the fact it went on for so long. I remember being sworn at by a woman who wanted to walk her dog past the subjects address because she "does it every day"... We (the Job) took a lot of slack for that.

I'm sure the usual "why didnt they TASER him?" and "couldn't they have just winged him?" will start up...

Fair play to the boys and girls on Tuesday night...

Eru

culabula88 wrote: »

seen it before , its fairly good. dont know if the guards are as well trained.

Lets not go down that road

culabula88

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Lets not go down that road

Agreed . Kind of could see where it could lead to eventually & I dont really want a discussion of cases etc that happened.

I more making the point of garda management & govn not providing funding or resources to have the gardai trained up to the same level as the trojan units of London.Imo , it should and would lead to better preparations for officers. Look at the problems the guards were having with getting a proper gun range set up - currently sharing one with the army i believe and one in HQ. - its a poor reflection on the govn and garda management and their inadequacies to provide proper resources.

eroo

culabula88 wrote: »

seen it before , its fairly good. dont know if the guards are as well trained.

I have no doubt they are.

JonAnderton

Coroners been adjorned for four months...

Esel

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Whats the difference between this and Abbylara?

Man with legally held gun goes crazy and starts shooting at police. After a few hours negotiations he is shot dead.

In London the police storm the house and shoot him and thats ok.

In Ireland the guy leaves the house and is shot as he fires at police but thats not OK.

Disclaimer: Im sure he had issues and its sad that this happened but if you shoot at the police they MUST be allowed put you down.

What?!

Oilrig

Forget the rubbish in the press, this was posted on another forum by a Judge who lives in the area.

"1630 approx:
Saunders fires a shotgun from his flat at 46 Markham Square into rear garden.
Armed officers arrive.

1650 approx:
Saunders fires his shotgun into a rear bedroom of my friends' house at 1 Bywater Street.
(The East side of Markham Square backs onto the West side of Bywater Street, separated by small gardens. #46 MS backs onto #1 BS.)
While police attend to investigate, he fires his shotgun again. Armed officers return fire. (Diplomatic Protection Group, I'm told.)

Large 'Safety Zone' created: Section of King's Road closed to pedestrians and traffic. Shops closed. Residents evacuated or told to remain inside away from rooms facing the incident scene - depending upon distance.

Police reinforcements arrive, including armed officers from CO19 - the Specialist Firearm Branch of the Metropolitan Police.
Ambulances/fire engines arrive, kept on stand-by at a safe distance.
My friend from #1 taken to the Safety Zone and waits with ‘neighbours group’ which grows as people return from work. She is interviewed by various TV news crews about Saunders firing shotgun into her house.

1700 approx: Stand-off begins.
All members of the public/residents moved well away from the area - otuside the Safety Zone cordons.

1800: Stand-off continues.
Police negotiator speaking to Saunders from another flat in 46 Markham Square - according to a police contact I saw at the scene.

1900: Stand-off continues.

2000: Stand-off continues.

Police Incident Commander tells us and waiting press/tv news crews there is one gunman, no hostage, the incident is contained, safety of 'paramount importance' so Police will wait "for as long as it takes."
No complaints from any residents in our group; we accept that's obviously the right course. Some start making arrangements to stay with friends overnight if it becomes necessary.

Armed personnel wearing balaclavas drive through the cordon towards the incident. Some speculation about them being SAS, but actually police officers from a specialist unit part of the CO19 Firearms Branch mentioned above.

2100 approx: Sound of a shotgun, immediately followed by a few 'cracks' of firearms being used. No visible increase in police activity near the scene.

2132 approx: Sound of a shotgun again, this time immediately followed by several firearm 'cracks' all in just a few seconds.
We wonder if it's all over; some assume the man has been killed.

2145 approx: Several loud bangs. Some neighbours saw green flashes in the by now darkening sky. (I didn't.) We assume stun grenades or similar used.
Increased police activity at the scene. An ambulance crew moves forward.
Other ambulance crews and the fire service begin to leave.

2200 approx: Police announce the gunman is dead, and tell us we will be allowed back into our homes as soon as possible.
General relief at the latter, but also some concern and speculation about how the man had died. Given what the Incident Commander had said, some assumed he must have taken his own life.

2300 onwards:
Most residents allowed back gradually.
Those of us with houses nearest the scene are kept back until almost midnight because of the risk of lingering CS gas.
Residents of houses entered by armed Police during the operation are not allowed back."

metman

Oilrig wrote: »

Forget the rubbish in the press, this was posted on another forum by a Judge who lives in the area.

Well if it was posted on the net then it must be true.......:rolleyes:

vote4pedro

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

In Ireland the guy leaves the house and is shot as he fires at police but thats not OK.

As far as I know, you're lying. Didn't Carthy walk out of the house with the gun, but never fire at police? Wasn't there also evidence that Carthy had confided in the police or a witness that he didn't intend to shoot somone?
Between that and your defence of "Robocop" in the other thread....

Satan Polaroid

vote4pedro wrote: »

As far as I know, you're lying. Didn't Carthy walk out of the house with the gun, but never fire at police? Wasn't there also evidence that Carthy had confided in the police or a witness that he didn't intend to shoot somone?
Between that and your defence of "Robocop" in the other thread....

Oh Lord....

shakin

vote4pedro wrote: »

As far as I know, you're lying. Didn't Carthy walk out of the house with the gun, but never fire at police? Wasn't there also evidence that Carthy had confided in the police or a witness that he didn't intend to shoot somone?
Between that and your defence of "Robocop" in the other thread....

off thread?

vote4pedro

Not really that off topic is it, comparing a siege in London to a siege in Ireland? Especially as I wasn't the one who brought up Abbeylara, but rather just thought I could make a response to the allegation about the Abbeylara siege, though as I mentioned I'm no expert on it and can't remember the full details.

civdef

If you can't remember the full details, you have no business accusing anyone else of lying. any further repitions will mean a ban. I'm also deciding that Abbeylara is OT to this thread.

vote4pedro

I apologise if I caused offence, I did precede the comment with "as far as I know" , as I actually did want to know if it was true Carthy shot at police on coming out. However if Abbeylara is OT then fair enough, though a mention of a ban seems a bit harsh when I wasn't the one who brough it up in the first place

metman

As has been highlighted in the press the Entry Team from CO19 performed in a highly professional manner in this instance. Sadly the situation resulted in a fatality. However that doesn't detract from the courage and skill displayed by 19's personnel who took control of a very volatile situation thus protecting the public and ultimately prevented a further loss of life.

Speedy return to operational duty to the team involved.

eroo

metman wrote: »

As has been highlighted in the press the Entry Team from CO19 performed in a highly professional manner in this instance. Sadly the situation resulted in a fatality. However that doesn't detract from the courage and skill displayed by 19's personnel who took control of a very volatile situation thus protecting the public and preventing further loss of life. Speedy return to operational duty to the team involved.

Well said metman:)

Eru

metman wrote: »

As has been highlighted in the press the Entry Team from CO19 performed in a highly professional manner in this instance. Sadly the situation resulted in a fatality. However that doesn't detract from the courage and skill displayed by 19's personnel who took control of a very volatile situation thus protecting the public and ultimately prevented a further loss of life.

Speedy return to operational duty to the team involved.

I never doubted there actions were professional and justified for a minute. They did what they had to do and the loss of life was not their fault.

I have never agreed with the death penalty but we have to ackowledge that sometimes the police are left with no alternative.

eroo

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I have never agreed with the death penalty but we have to ackowledge that sometimes the police are left with no alternative.

What?

Eru

eroo wrote: »

What?

Do you not understand my comment or simple not agree with it?

eroo

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Do you not understand my comment or simple not agree with it?

I don't understand it!:o

JonAnderton

I'm with you eroo..

Are you comparing the death penalty to being shot by armed police????

Eru

Sorry, was just stating in advance of the trolls getting on that despite supporting the police actions Im not a nutter who thinks the answer to crime is the death penalty and castration.

Thats usually what gets thrown out when the police shoot someone and I support them.

Mr Magnolia

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

In Ireland the guy leaves the house and is shot as he fires at police but thats not OK.

If you are refering to the Abbeylara incident, then you are wrong. He did not fire at any of the Garda as he left his house.

vote4pedro wrote: »

Didn't Carthy walk out of the house with the gun, but never fire at police?

Correct.

civdef

Guys, seriously, Abbeylara is not for this thread.

sunnyjim

Sorry lads.

Shield

All ES mods have agreed that this thread should now be closed off as the seige is over.