Israel Independence Day!....Whats your thought?

Suff

Israel Independence Day
Today marks Israel's "independence day" celebrations in Mount Hertzel in Jerusalem.

imho it should be called "Occupation Day"...

I would like to know whats your thoughts on this.

mike65

My thought is that Israel has every right to mark the day as it is an independent state which achived that status on a particular date.

If you would like to bang on about other matters then start a thread.

Mike.

wes

Israel has every right to celebrate there successful ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians via expulsion and murder to create a Jewish state.

[sarcasm]Who wouldn't want to celebrate such a monumental achievement?[/sarcasm]

LordSutch

Lets not start a thread about a 'Celebration' of Israel's independence & then start knocking her, specially on this day .............

Well done & congratulations to Israel & her people, may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

Kev_ps3

Occupation Day is the real name for that farce.

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

Lets not start a thread about a 'Celebration' of Israel's independence & then start knocking her, specially on this day .............

So we should just ignore the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousand of Palestinians, which the founder of Israel are responsible for? Simply put, the creation of the state of Israel and what the Palestinians call "Al Nakba" are one and the same event and this should be pointed out. Criticism of Israel on this day is appropriate as many will do there best to ignore the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

This is the perfect time to talk about this. The celebration of ethnic cleansing is quite frankly disturbing and the fact that there are people who think this should be ignored is profoundly disturbing.

ArthurF wrote: »

Well done & congratulations to Israel & her people, may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

Of course Israel provocation should be ignored. Driving out the native populace was never going to end well. Something Zionists (and there defenders) will always ignore.

Suff

The creation of Israel resulted in establishing a troubled region for over 60 years. Just think of this...If Isreal didn't exist would you have the cliche terms used today to describe the region? "Terrorism", "Freedomfighters" and "islamic extremists"...it all resulted of Israel.

I recommend people view the links in my sig to understand the real issue here.

wes

Suff wrote: »

The creation of Israel resulted in establishing a troubled region for over 60 years. Just think of this...If Isreal didn't exist would you have the cliche terms used today to describe the region? "Terrorism", "Freedomfighters" and "islamic extremists"...it all resulted of Israel.

I think your overstating Israel effect on the region. A lot of that stuff would most certainly exists in some form. Remember that Arab dictators are responsible for the unrest in there own nations. All the problems in the Middle East are not Israels fault.

Now, the Palestinians on the other hand would not be living in refugee camps and not suffering due to Israel actions. It can easily be shown that Israel creation resulted in misery for Palestinians, which continues to this day.

meditraitor

Independence is the self-government of a nation, country, or state by its residents and population, or some portion thereof, generally exercising sovereignty.

The term independence is used in sorkaray contrast to subjugation, which refers to a region as a "territory" —subject to the political and military control of an external government. The word is sometimes used in a weaker sense to contrast with hegemony, the indirect control of one nation by another, more powerful nation

Maybe it should be called SUBJUGATION DAY

Manic Moran

Two different issues. The simple creation of the country did not automatically result in four wars and a bunch of occupations.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Two different issues. The simple creation of the country did not automatically result in four wars and a bunch of occupations.

NTM

Yes, yes it did. The Nakba and the creation of Israel are one of the same. The wars that followed were just a continuation of the first one in 1948.

Attempts to pretend otherwise is to make excuses for what Zionists did to the Palestinians.

mikeindublin

I was happy and proud to attend Israeli independence celebrations at the Ballsbridge COurt Hotel in Dublin last night. There was a small group of protesters outside shouting abuse at guests as we arrived, but, there were as many Gardai as protesters.

wes

mikeindublin wrote: »

I was happy and proud to attend Israeli independence celebrations at the Ballsbridge COurt Hotel in Dublin last night. There was a small group of protesters outside shouting abuse at guests as we arrived, but, there were as many Gardai as protesters.

So your proud to celebrate the independence of an Apartheid state? A state that ethnically cleansed 1000's of Palestinians. Good to know.

rowlandbrowner

ArthurF wrote: »

may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

Israel has invaded and occupied Lebanon and Palestine, they literally wiped Palestine off the map. Their benefactors the United States have used its veto power to prevent resolutions concerning Israel from passing through the Security Council on 42 occasions.

The Israeli population have every right to have a national day of independence, but considering the countries history what you said is not only inaccurate but offensive.

humberklog

Congratulations. A special thanks for Tel aviv. (Best gay breakaway destination). Beautiful country, I'd fully recommend a trip. Could be an eye opener for many that post on this thread. As reading about a country and seeing is very different. Beautiful fertile land where once was desert. Anni yo'ev attak.Shababa.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Congratulations. A special thanks for Tel aviv. (Best gay breakaway destination). Beautiful country, I'd fully recommend a trip. Could be an eye opener for many that post on this thread. As reading about a country and seeing is very different.

Did you go to the occupied territories? How about refugee camps in other states in the Middle East?

Does visiting Israel change the reality magically?

humberklog wrote: »

Beautiful fertile land where once was desert.

The old Zionist saying. Of course this is untrue, as Palestinians were farming the lands before the creation of the state of Israel. Sure it was poor, but the Palestinians were living there and it was there home.

ivan087

mike65 wrote: »

My thought is that Israel has every right to mark the day as it is an independent state which achived that status on a particular date.

If you would like to bang on about other matters then start a thread.

Mike.

just like it had every right to force over 4 million people off their land, destroy their houses and not pay them a penny. happy independence day israel!

LordSutch

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

Lets not start a thread about a 'Celebration' of Israel's independence & then start knocking her, specially on this day .............

Well done & congratulations to Israel & her people, may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

hope you're being sarcastic! read your history from 1947/48, then you might understand why there is hostility and provocation. try thinking WHY they face hostility and provocation. it is a pity the palestinians are not given the chance to 'flourish and prosper.'

humberklog

ArthurF wrote: »

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

Good man arthur. Thankfully someone that's actually been there. It's a very impressive country.

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact. As are all the Palestinians living in refugee camps. To ignore these facts is being "blinkered".

ArthurF wrote: »

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

No, one said Israeli's weren't nice people or anything like that.

Zionists wiped Palestine off the map, when it drove the Palestinians from there home land.

ArthurF wrote: »

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

The old accusation of racism, coming from someone defending an apartheid state, that has Jewish only roads.

humberklog

wes wrote: »

Did you go to the occupied territories? Yes. How about refugee camps in other states in the Middle East? No.

Does visiting Israel change the reality magically? No.

Yes. I trained in civil engineering in the IDF and brought water mains to west bank.
No.
No.
Have you?

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Yes. I trained in civil engineering in the IDF and brought water mains to west bank.

Well, then your well aware of the illegal occupation and Jewish only roads then. Something you conveniently ignore. Also, you fail to mention the vast majority of water goes to illegal Zionist colonists.

Then there is this:

From Independent.co.uk article by Johann Hari:

But I can't do it. Whenever I try to mouth these words, a remembered smell fills my nostrils. It is the smell of ****. Across the occupied West Bank, raw untreated sewage is pumped every day out of the Jewish settlements, along large metal pipes, straight onto Palestinian land. From there, it can enter the groundwater and the reservoirs, and become a poison.

Pretty horrible state of affairs for Palestinians. Of course, so many here would rather ignore this and pretend Israel is great and when this kinda crap is happening.

humberklog wrote: »

Have you?

Can't say that I have.

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

funny that, since it was the jewish nutters that wiped palestine off the map!

do you just ignore the facts about invading another nation, ethnic cleansing and bloody murder!!!

then, can the republic of ireland just march up to northern ireland and start knocking people out of their houses, because let's face it, it was ours a while back! no, no, no that just sounds like ethnic cleansing!!!!!!!!!!!

LordSutch

wes wrote: »

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact. As are all the Palestinians living in refugee camps. To ignore these facts is being "blinkered".

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term as 'ethnic cleansing' then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

humberklog

wes wrote: »

Well, then your well aware of the illegal occupation and Jewish only roads then. Something you conveniently ignore. Also, you fail to mention the vast majority of water goes to illegal Zionist colonists.

Then there is this:



Pretty horrible state of affairs for Palestinians. Of course, so many here would rather ignore this and pretend Israel is great and when this kinda crap is happening.



Can't say that I have.

Nothing conveniently ignored nor failed to mention. As this and every other woe gets dragged up in every thread regarding Isreal then why would I? I don't see it from the OP as kicking off in that direction. You may,I don't. If it was I'd choose to read the thread and not comment. That's my choice.
Personally I thnk that a lot of the arguement against Isreals activities gets lost among the hubris as every thread regarding Isreal gets taken down the same avenue each and every time. It kinda loses it. If the thread jackers had the imagination to create a thread that was more specific to their gripes than their opinions would carry more impitus.

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

sorry, i didn't know we were talking about numbers. and yes i am using an emotive term to describe simple fact. i think you really, really need to read some history of the period. i'm talking about plain simple facts. by the way arthurF, here is a definition of ethnic cleansing:

Ethnic cleansing refers to various military policies or military practices aimed at achieving security during war through displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

am i still wrong, or should i use less 'emotive terms'. my posterior indeed...

Kev_ps3

humberklog wrote: »

Congratulations. A special thanks for Tel aviv. (Best gay breakaway destination). Beautiful country, I'd fully recommend a trip. Could be an eye opener for many that post on this thread. As reading about a country and seeing is very different. Beautiful fertile land where once was desert. Anni yo'ev attak.Shababa.

Gays and jews! (gets my nuclear bomb)

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

I never said Genocide. Ehtnic cleansings and Genocide have different meanings.

Genocide Definition

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

Definition of Ethnic cleansing

the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

As you can see the 2 terms mean different things. So you entire post is utter nonsense.

humberklog

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Gays and jews! (gets my nuclear bomb)

Cracker!
But yep there's a lot good about the region. Great gay scene, women vote, drink booze, wear what they want...eh exact same as here. Very different from other countries in the region.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Nothing conveniently ignored nor failed to mention. As this and every other woe gets dragged up in every thread regarding Isreal then why would I? I don't see it from the OP as kicking off in that direction. You may,I don't. If it was I'd choose to read the thread and not comment. That's my choice.
Personally I thnk that a lot of the arguement against Isreals activities gets lost among the hubris as every thread regarding Isreal gets taken down the same avenue each and every time. It kinda loses it. If the thread jackers had the imagination to create a thread that was more specific to their gripes than their opinions would carry more impitus.

You are congratulating Israel on being a great country as others are. I disagree and I am providing examples of how thats not the case. Hardly hijacking anything. Why shouldn't Israel treatment of Palestinians not be brought up? Your trying to make Israel out to be a normal country, when it is an apartheid state. I think its appropriate to mention that, especially when people are praising an apartheid state.

Anyway, the Nakba and the creation of the state of Israel are events that are linked. I don't see how one can seperate them. So bringing it up is essential in this discussion imho.