Israel Independence Day!....Whats your thought?

LordSutch · 08-05-2008 3:54pm

I find it really sad that Today of all days, a Thread is opened to celebrate Israel's Birthday, & all we get is this typical Anti-Israel flack from Irish people who are just as unaware of the real circumstances in Israel, as many in the US were unaware of the real circumstances (here on this little island) only twenty years ago ~ je those poor little irish people, lets donate some more money to those nice IRA fellers & help them kill all those nasty English fellers, etc . . . BANG*

At least I was in Israel, I lived in Israel, I know its people & I know the threats & where they come from!

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

humberklog · 08-05-2008 3:54pm

wes wrote: »

You are congratulating Israel on being a great country as others are. I disagree and I am providing examples of how thats not the case. Hardly hijacking anything. Why shouldn't Israel treatment of Palestinians not be brought up? Your trying to make Israel out to be a normal country, when it is an apartheid state. I think its appropriate to mention that, especially when people are praising an apartheid state.

Anyway, the Nakba and the creation of the state of Israel are events that are linked. I don't see how one can seperate them. So bringing it up is essential in this discussion imho.

Sure Wes there is a point there(as always). But really... every thread about Israel ends up down the same cul-de-sac and then the discussion turns to an arguement and then any based comment just gets lost. I'm fully aware of the wrongs of Israel. I wouldn't be a fan of its administration over the last 12years. But any intillegent debate keeps getting lost in the anti-israeli ranting. Tellsya if a levelled discussion can't happen on boards think how difficult it is at the coal-face.

wes · 08-05-2008 3:57pm

humberklog wrote: »

Sure Wes there is a point there(as always). But really... every thread about Israel ends up down the same cul-de-sac and then the discussion turns to an arguement and then any based comment just gets lost. I'm fully aware of the wrongs of Israel. I wouldn't be a fan of its administration over the last 12years. But any intillegent debate keeps getting lost in the anti-israeli ranting. Tellsya if a levelled discussion can't happen on boards think how difficult it is at the coal-face.

This is pretty much how message boards work. You hardly going to have a one way conversation. If you want that, you should start a blog or something.

humberklog · 08-05-2008 3:58pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I find it really sad that Today of all days, a Thread is opened to celebrate Israel's Birthday, & all we get is this typical Anti-Israel flack from Irish people who are just as unaware of the real circumstances in Israel, as many in the US were unaware of the real circumstances (here on this little island) only twenty years ago ~ je those poor little irish people, lets donate some more money to those nice IRA fellers & help them kill all those nasty English fellers, etc . . . BANG*

At least I was in Israel, I lived & worked in Israel, I know its people & I know the threats & where they come from!

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

Where wre you Arthur? Anywhere nice? Like I said I love tel-aviv but I now stay around ashdod. Always love a trip to Haifa,not the prittiest but damn fine fun. People in Haifa are a lot more 'earthier' than in Tel aviv. I've a few bottles of goldstar and a few packs of Noblesse here. Cracking them open at weekend.

Gobán Saor · 08-05-2008 3:59pm

I never cease to be amazed at the anti - Israel vitriol in this country. The standard story is 1948, Jews seize Palestinian land, kill and expel Palestinians and steal their land. Its not so simple. In the first half of the 20th century, Palestine (comprising present day Jordan, Israel and the West Bank/Gaza) had both Jews and Arabs living there. Not too many of either (about 750,000 in total) as it wasn't (then) a particularly desirable place to live. The League of Nations appointed Britain to rule the place with a "Mandate" to facilitate Jewish immigration and settlement and create a Jewish state, without prejudice to the rights of other groups living there. Jews arrived in increasing numbers particularly after the Nazis came to power in Germany. They didn't steal anybody's land, they bought land or moved onto unoccupied land - of which there was quite a lot. Inter-community conflict was rife and after WW2, Britain tried to damp it down by restricting Jewish immigration to Israel. This failed and The United Nations drew up a partition plan in 1947 for a Jewish state and an Arab state . While the plan allocated more than 50% of the land area to the Jewish state, most of this was the pretty useless Negev desert. The fertile areas bordering the coast and the river Jordan were pretty fairly divided. Obviously, many Jews lived in the proposed Arab state and many Arabs lived in the proposed Arab state. Impossible to be otherwise. The UN partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership in Palestine but was rejected by the Arab League. Attacks on isolated Jewish settlements were common and the Jewish population of Jerusalem was blockaded and besieged by Arab forces. Gradually the Jewish forces came to the realisation that their people were undefendable without capturing more territory and they went on the offensive, securing a larger area. In doing so, they defeated the Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian and Iraqi armies who invaded Israel immediately the British withdrew. While many Palestinians did flee the new state many also stayed. Indeed, the most secure Palestinian Arabs today are the 1 million who live in and are full citizens of the State of Israel. They have full civil and political rights and are represented in the Israeli parliament and in the upper ranks of the judiciary. Oppression, I don't think so. They play a full part in Israeli life and are well represented on the country's international soccer team, for instance. Those Palestinian Arabs who fled and came under the rule of their fellow Arabs in Gaza (ruled by Egypt from 1949-1968) or in the West Bank (ruled by Jordan from 1949-1968) have indeed fared badly. Not entirely Israel's fault when you look at the whole picture.

wes · 08-05-2008 4:03pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I find it really sad that Today of all days, a Thread is opened to celebrate Israel's Birthday, & all we get is this typical Anti-Israel flack from Irish people who are just as unaware of the real circumstances in Israel, as many in the US were unaware of the real circumstances (here on this little island) only twenty years ago ~ je those poor little irish people, lets donate some more money to those nice IRA fellers & help them kill all those nasty English fellers, etc . . . BANG*

Its also the day Palestinians remember as "Al Nakba". A bit insensitive to be congratulating (and throwing a party to celebrate) the nation that drove them out of there country.

ArthurF wrote: »

At least I was in Israel, I lived in Israel, I know its people & I know the threats & where they come from!

Doesn't change anything brought up here. Doesn't change the fact Palestinians were driven from there homes.

ArthurF wrote: »

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

So collective punishment (essentially state terrorism) is ok then.

ArthurF wrote: »

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

Again, "Al Nakba" was caused by Zionists who founded Israel. I don't think this should be forgotten.

humberklog · 08-05-2008 4:04pm

wes wrote: »

This is pretty much how message boards work. You hardly going to have a one way conversation. If you want that, you should start a blog or something.

I disagree. I think the original topic is more adhered to on other forums. Take a look at the 'irish priests at western(I prefer wailing, it's more apt!) wall thread. I laughable topic that took about four threads in befor the brigade waded in.
You may have a point on this thread, it could be the thread for such posting. My point is that every thread everytime doesn't make sense and loses its importance.

djpbarry · 08-05-2008 4:10pm

ArthurF wrote: »

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

What "good reasons" would they be?

ArthurF wrote: »

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

So you're saying that just because it's Israel's birthday, we should all turn a blind eye to the injustices perpetrated in the region?

I am not celebrating Israel's independence, but then I didn't celebrate 4th July when I lived in the US either; that doesn't make me anti-Israeli or anti-American.

humberklog wrote: »

I'm fully aware of the wrongs of Israel.

But nobody else is allowed to point them out?

humberklog wrote: »

I wouldn't be a fan of its administration over the last 12years. But any intillegent debate keeps getting lost in the anti-israeli ranting.

In fairness, I don't think Wes could be accused of ranting; his arguments have been well-made and to-the-point. Just because you don't agree with a point of view, doesn't make it a rant.

wes · 08-05-2008 4:12pm

humberklog wrote: »

I disagree. I think the original topic is more adhered to on other forums. Take a look at the 'irish priests at western(I prefer wailing, it's more apt!) wall thread. I laughable topic that took about four threads in befor the brigade waded in.

Fair enough, its up to the moderators then. Not you or me.

humberklog wrote: »

You may have a point on this thread, it could be the thread for such posting. My point is that every thread everytime doesn't make sense and loses its importance.

Yes, you have a point, but I am talking about this thread and not others and again "Al Nakba" and the creation of the state of Israel can't be separated. There both the same thing. There are 2 points of view on this event. I see no reason why the Palestinian side should be ignored. I find it odd you seem to think its not relevant.

LordSutch · 08-05-2008 4:15pm

Looks like its just you & me humberklog fighting off the hoards ......

Oh yes, nobless ciggies bring back memories (great name for a cigarette) but I am no longer a smoker, I lived on Kibbutz Yagur down south, spent time in Tel Aviv, spent a couple of months in Jerusalem, then lived near Haifa & Acko up North^ (where Jews & Arabs live peacefully) Happy memories indeed humberklog, oh yes & I remember Goldstar bier too ..............

humberklog · 08-05-2008 4:20pm

Although I don't think you have to have been in israel to comment on it it does help. It's a very complex region where history becomes blurred and clear and sometimes all at once. Of all the troubled regions in the world I'd say that Israel is far more understood by a bit of hands on experience. It is a little like describing an orange by its colour without tasting it. I wonder how many people that've spent a bit of time with Israelis in Israel (not back packers in india) have a fully negative view of Israels handling of the situation. What gets my goat moreso is how palastinians are treeted by their arab brothers. Generally disgracefully and more often abysmally. I scratch my head when someone tells me they're going to Dubai for holidays. The same people screamed abuse at S.africa in the '80,s. Dubai was built and is still building on the backs of occassionally enforced slaved labour. Sure no whips and chains, just the threat of starvation and rape of family.

Agent Smith · 08-05-2008 4:20pm

Happy Birthday Isreal.

humberklog · 08-05-2008 4:24pm

wes wrote: »

Fair enough, its up to the moderators then. Not you or me.

Yes, you have a point, but I am talking about this thread and not others and again "Al Nakba" and the creation of the state of Israel can't be separated. There both the same thing. There are 2 points of view on this event. I see no reason why the Palestinian side should be ignored. I find it odd you seem to think its not relevant.

I'm not ignoring its relevance I just have neither the time nor 'will' to get involved. Its less fun also. And if being really honest I'd be outta my depth of understanding on a historical level too. I'd be buried in minutes. I'm a 'Jew-lite'.

wes · 08-05-2008 4:28pm

humberklog wrote: »

Although I don't think you have to have been in israel to comment on it it does help. It's a very complex region where history becomes blurred and clear and sometimes all at once. Of all the troubled regions in the world I'd say that Israel is far more understood by a bit of hands on experience. It is a little like describing an orange by its colour without tasting it. I wonder how many people that've spent a bit of time with Israelis in Israel (not back packers in india) have a fully negative view of Israels handling of the situation.

Great, we know you have been to the occupied territories. Have you lived there? Perhaps those who defend Israel, should live there for a while then, see the other side?

I personally don't think you need to live in either the OT or Israel proper to help understand the situation. However, if you think living in Israel will help matters, then I would suggest those who making that suggestion should live in Gaza or the West Bank then.

humberklog wrote: »

What gets my goat moreso is how palastinians are treeted by their arab brothers. Generally disgracefully and more often abysmally. I scratch my head when someone tells me they're going to Dubai for holidays. The same people screamed abuse at S.africa in the '80,s. Dubai was built and is still building on the backs of occassionally enforced slaved labour. Sure no whips and chains, just the threat of starvation and rape of family.

You were only just complaining about people going off topic. What exactly does Dubai have to do with Israel?

Dubai sucks, I agree and I personally refused to go there myself as people of my ethnicity are treated like ****.

Still the actions of Dubai, don't make Israel better. In fact the actions of that state have nothing to do with Israel.

Btw, aren't you guilty of the same thing you accuse people of in this post then?

I agree the treatment of Palestinians by Arab states is abysmal, kinda shows that the Palestinians have where else to go.

wes · 08-05-2008 4:29pm

humberklog wrote: »

I'm not ignoring its relevance I just have neither the time nor 'will' to get involved. Its less fun also. And if being really honest I'd be outta my depth of understanding on a historical level too. I'd be buried in minutes. I'm a 'Jew-lite'.

Fair enough, guess I misunderstood what you were getting at.

LordSutch · 08-05-2008 4:33pm

I watch events in Israel from afar these days humberklog, now that I live in Dublin, but I have fond memories of Israel & I will always raise a glass to Israel & her people at this time of year where ever I am.

Cheers for now humberklog, & 'Happy Birthday Israel'.

Lemming · 08-05-2008 4:53pm

ArthurF wrote: »

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term as 'ethnic cleansing' then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

I've not read the rest of this thread yet, but ArthurF ... might I suggest you go and educate yourself on the definition of ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing does not equate to genocide although the two can often be found side by side. Ethnic cleansing is the forced clearing of a group or sub-group of people based on criteria such as religion, race, nationality or creed from a region. Whether they are dragged or killed makes little difference. They are forcibly removed.

So, what happened in 1948 and since was and is ethnic cleansing whether you want to face that rather important fact or not. It's your decision on whether or not you want to bury your head in the sand. I'm not going to sugar-coat fact for you. To paraphrase Chomsky at a lecture I attended: "Facts matter, even when you don't happen to agree with them".

meditraitor · 08-05-2008 5:07pm

ArthurF wrote: »

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

Apologising for murder doesnt help your point darling

I dont think that because its Independance Day in Isreal that there should be no mention of the horrific crimes carried out in the name of the Jewish people(many of them are not so blind as to deny the crimes of the state and wish what we all wish).

If the state of Isreal would only stop the ethnic cleansing then Im sure we would all gladly wish Isreal a happy Independance day.

But it will not happen because the state of Isreal does not see itself a criminal (even though anyone in their right mind knows what is happening in Palestine is disgusting).

LordSutch · 08-05-2008 5:19pm

I stand by my criticism of the use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' when used in the above context, otherwise we could all claim to have been ecthnically cleansed by each other . . . The Romans ethnically cleansed the Angles & the Picts?, the European ethnically cleansed the american indian?, the Norseman ethnically cleansed the Celts, the Roman catholic ethnically cleansed the protestants in the border counties, etc etc. you get my drift? ~ the list is endless.

So I would tend only to ues the term 'Ethnic Cleansing' when appropriate as in the Jewish Holocaust . . . darling meditaitor

humberklog · 08-05-2008 5:25pm

ArthurF wrote: »

Looks like its just you & me humberklog fighting off the hoards ......

Oh yes, nobless ciggies bring back memories (great name for a cigarette) but I am no longer a smoker, I lived on Kibbutz Yagur down south, spent time in Tel Aviv, spent a couple of months in Jerusalem, then lived near Haifa & Acko up North^ (where Jews & Arabs live peacefully) Happy memories indeed humberklog, oh yes & I remember Goldstar bier too ..............

Good point there. Very good neighbours around that area.
Love acre, bit seedy,good boozers and proper arab restuarants. Proper humus,sug and warmed pitta, ancient,ancient ancient place. Good crack taking the wedding boats out and going on the rip. There's afew kibbutz around there, my cousin married a kibbutznic from kibbutz Yasur which's about 4km from there on the Nazereth road. Very pretty for a farm girl. Had the party on the kibbutz, brilliant places,met a few hungarian survivors there too. Very interesting and loads of german jews that had spent the war in n. ireland in munition factories. Great stories. (Not too keen on Nazereth).

djpbarry · 08-05-2008 5:28pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I stand by my criticism of the use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' when used in the above context, otherwise we could all claim to have been ecthnically cleansed by each other
...
the European ethnically cleansed the american indian?

You don't think that native Americans were ethnically cleansed? Are you serious?

oscarBravo · 08-05-2008 5:48pm

Polite note: let's not get personal, folks.

wes · 08-05-2008 5:54pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I stand by my criticism of the use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' when used in the above context, otherwise we could all claim to have been ecthnically cleansed by each other . . . The Romans ethnically cleansed the Angles & the Picts?, the European ethnically cleansed the american indian?, the Norseman ethnically cleansed the Celts, the Roman catholic ethnically cleansed the protestants in the border counties, etc etc. you get my drift? ~ the list is endless.

So I would tend only to ues the term 'Ethnic Cleansing' when appropriate as in the Jewish Holocaust . . . darling meditaitor

Definitions of the term have been provided, they showed you were clearly wrong.

The term ethnic cleansing came into popular use during the break up of the former Yugoslavia. The term was never intended for exclusive use to describe the Jewish holocaust.

Simply put, your understanding of the term is simply wrong. Your criticism has been proven wrong already, by the definitions provided earlier.

dlofnep · 08-05-2008 6:00pm

Happy illegal occupation day to Israel.

humberklog · 08-05-2008 6:08pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Happy illegal occupation day to Israel.

Oyevay. Meh.
LeChaim and shalom. (Am off to fire up bar b q on such a glorious week. And no joke...I do have 2 isaeli flags flying off my balcony for this whole week. Good metre long ones too. Dada,dedede,dada,dedede,dada.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 08-05-2008 6:16pm

Let Israel celebrate all they want, but I don't think there should be worldwide celebration complete with fireworks and tributes. At least not until Israel is made to answer for at least, say, ONE war crime... or maybe until they sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, or give equal rights to non-Jews.

Sure, the Israeli people are fine and good - it's the government at fault. Same with the United States - Bush isn't the most popular of figures, but that doesn't mean the good people of America are to blame for his decisions.

Lemming · 08-05-2008 6:24pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I stand by my criticism of the use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' when used in the above context, otherwise we could all claim to have been ecthnically cleansed by each other . . . The Romans ethnically cleansed the Angles & the Picts?, the European ethnically cleansed the american indian?, the Norseman ethnically cleansed the Celts, the Roman catholic ethnically cleansed the protestants in the border counties, etc etc. you get my drift? ~ the list is endless.

So I would tend only to ues the term 'Ethnic Cleansing' when appropriate as in the Jewish Holocaust . . . darling meditaitor

Neither the state of Israel nor the Jewish religion holds monopoly over the term Ethnic Cleansing nor on persecution.

Regards your examples to counter (and in a really p*ss-poor manner I might add) the _actual_ notion of ethnic cleansing, you have a horrendously skewed concept of what ethnic cleansing is or where it would apply.

I would LOVE to hear your account of what entailed ethnic cleansing of protestants in the border counties .... please!! I f*cking AWAIT with eagerness to hear. Or the Romans, or the Norse. Might I suggest that everyone else please switch the sarcasm detectors on at this point.

LordSutch · 08-05-2008 8:37pm

Thanks to 'Wes' in Post#21 the provocative & emotive term 'ethnic cleansing' has been introduced into this topic about 'Israel indepencence Day'.

I personally think that to accuse any people &/or state of Ethnic Cleansing is a very serious accusation that can only lead to hatred towards the accused (in this case Israel) and I am certainly not about to hate or accuse Israel or the Israeli people of 'ethnic cleansing' specially today.

Those who hate & accuse Israel of this deed should realise that there is of course a very strong counter argument that could fill this thread for the next ten pages, but this Thread is meant to be about a celebration of Israel & not a 'Witch Hunt' against the Israel & the Israeli's, so I wont go off on one ......... but if those who accuse Israel want to read the counter argument against their Anti-Israel, ethnic cleansing guff, then may I suggest they read this link which is a very good & thought provoking counter argument. http://www.amazon.com/review/R20VFV845EWEAK/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R20VFV845EWEAK

Now can we please get off the 'ethnic cleansing' name calling, and carry on sensibly . . . . . .

fly_agaric · 08-05-2008 8:54pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I personally think that to accuse any people &/or state of Ethnic Cleansing is a very serious accusation that can only lead to hatred towards the accused (in this case Israel) and I am certainly not about to hate or accuse Israel or the Israeli people of 'ethnic cleansing' specially today.

I know, we'll say Israel is "reclaiming the Jewish homeland" bit by bit. Is that better?

ArthurF wrote: »

this Thread is meant to be about a celebration of Israel

Haven't read all this thread but I really don't think the poster who started off this thread intended it as a "celebration of Israel" LOL!:pac:
Think you'll need a new thread for that.

wes · 08-05-2008 8:57pm

ArthurF wrote: »

Thanks to 'Wes' in Post#21 the provocative & emotive term 'ethnic cleansing' has been introduced into this topic about 'Israel indepencence Day'.

Ethnic cleansing is regularly used to describe what happened to Palestinians. Hardly the first to use it.

ArthurF wrote: »

I personally think that to accuse any people &/or state of Ethnic Cleansing is a very serious accusation that can only lead to hatred towards the accused (in this case Israel) and I am certainly not about to hate or accuse Israel or the Israeli people of 'ethnic cleansing' specially today.

No one accused the people of Israel of anything. Just its founders and leaders. Your accusation of hate is baseless.

ArthurF wrote: »

Those who hate & accuse Israel of this deed should realise that there is of course a very strong counter argument that could fill this thread for the next ten pages, but this Thread is meant to be about a celebration of Israel & not a 'Witch Hunt' against the Israel & the Israeli's, so I wont go off on one

Nonsense, the OP has actually criticized Israel in this thread and the purpose is not what you say.

Suff wrote: »

Israel Independence Day
Today marks Israel's "independence day" celebrations in Mount Hertzel in Jerusalem.

imho it should be called "Occupation Day"...

I would like to know whats your thoughts on this.

The thread was created to ask people what they taught about it and not as you claim to celebrate anything.

You other claims are also nonsense, since you don't seem to know why the thread was started in the first place.

ArthurF wrote: »

......... but if those who accuse Israel want to read the counter argument against their Anti-Israel, ethnic cleansing guff, then may I suggest they read this link which is a very good & thought provoking counter argument.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R20VFV845EWEAK/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R20VFV845EWEAK

How is a comment from Amazon proof of anything? The counter argument is by some random Amazon poster and simply isn't worth replying to.

Ilan Pappe is a actual historian, so his work is worth more than some random Amazon post.

**EDIT**
Ah hell, i will take apart the pathetic arguement:

Amazon Comment:

Ilan Pappe has a short memory. He has forgotten that Jews have lived in Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel) CONTINUOUSLY for 4000 years, far longer than have the Arabs who invaded in the 7th century and who ethnically cleansed much of the Jewish population, but a remnant heroically hung on. Many of the ethnically cleansed Jews moved to countries bordering Eretz Israel such as Syria, Egypt, North Africa, Iraq, Turkey in addition to Europe. The direct connection of the Jewish people was never broken, but you wouldn't know that from reading Pappe. That is why Pappe himself lives in Israel.

What does this have to do with anything exactly? No one is saying Jews never lived in what is today called Israel. Also, there were people there before them and people there after them.

Also, the history provided leaved out the Romans, Philistines etc who also lived there. Many different groups lived there. So complete nonsense.

Amazon Comment:

The modern Arabs/Muslims are the last people in the world who should complain about "ethnic cleansing". In the early 1920's, a population transfer between Greece and Muslim Turkey took place. In 1947, the Muslims of India demanded a separate state, expelled virtually entire Hindu population which numbered in the millions from its territory, killed hundreds of thousands and dispossessed the rest and brought in an alien, Mohammed Ali Jinnah who spoke neither Urdu or Bengali, the languages of West and East Pakistan to be the leader, nor was he native to these areas. I don't see any Muslims or supporters of the Palestinian myths worrying about this. Then there was the expulsion of the Christian Serb population of Bosnia in more recent times, not to mention the ethnic cleansing by Muslim Sudan of the Christians. Again, no mention of these things.

Completely irrelevant nonsense and half of it is factually incorrect at a minimum. None of this is the responsibility of Palestinians. Also, not all Palestinians are Muslims either.

So far there has been no counter arguement at all. Just idiocy that has nothing to do with the topic.

Amazon Comment:

Pappe, who is not taken seriously in Israel as a scholar and whose views were rejected even by the Post-Zionist Left including Uri Avnery, leaves out the repeated efforts by the Zionist leaders, starting with Chaim Weizman to reach an accomodation with the Arab leaders. Upon the UN adopting the partition resolution in 1947, the Arabs declared a jihad to destroy the Jewish community, (yes, the Arabs started the war), and announced it would be a war of extermination. Fortunately, they lost, many Arabs in the war zone fled, others were expelled, but their fate, as the aggressors, was the same as the Germans of the Sudetenland, Pomerania, Silesia and East Prussia who participated in agression against

So the poster admits that Arabs were expelled. How does that even disprove anything?

Also, the Arabs didn't start the war. Also, what right did other people have to give away Palestinians land? The answer is they didn't.

Trying to take over another country is a declaration of war. The Palestinians made up the majority were never asked about there fate, this was always going to lead to conflict, when people decide to give away there country.

Amazon Comment:

Czechoslovakia, Poland and the USSR. In both case the aggressors lost and the refugees from the aggressor country paid the price. Pappe, in his self-made guilt complex ignores all these facts to build his own fantasyland. He is not doing his Palestinian friends any favor, because by making them think that Israel can be erased, he is pushing peace further and further away. Peace will only come when the Arabs realize Israel is here to stay.

More nonsense.

The arguement doesn't counter anything and is largely irrelevant. It tries to justify the ethnic cleansing and doesn't even try to deny it. So you counter argument (which isn't even yours) is rubbish. The argument has only 1 star on Amazon and with good reason, as it tries to justify ethnic cleansing and doesn't even bother denying it.

I have to say it, its odd that you didn't even provide your own arguement and used a largely irrelevant one from a Amazon poster.

ArthurF wrote: »

Now can we please get off the 'ethnic cleansing' name calling, and carry on sensibly . . . . . .

What name calling? Ethnic cleansing is accurate as per the definitions provided. You just ignored the definitions provided. The counter argument tries to justify it and doesn't even bother to deny it.

Perhaps you should actually provide a actual arguement that isn't a 1 star comment from Amazon instead.

Israel Independence Day!....Whats your thought?

Comments