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Israel Independence Day!....Whats your thought?

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    #62
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Ethnic Cleansing it shall be for the next ten pages ~ Happy Now Wes?

    Surely there is more to discussing the country & foundation of Israel then just accusing them of ethnic cleansing, there must be more to talk about ..........


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    #63
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Kindof waiting for someone to say that today's Hezbullah/Lebanon declaration of war is the fault of the Israelis or their American backers...

    NTM


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    #64
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Ethnic Cleansing it shall be for the next ten pages ~ Happy Now Wes?

    The topic is about what people think about Israels independence. I am just saying what I think as per the topic.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    Surely there is more to discussing the country & foundation of Israel then just accusing them of ethnic cleansing, there must be more to talk about ..........

    There was ethnic cleansing. The counter argument you provide admitted to expulsions and tried to justify them. There was no denial at all. Perhaps, you should choose the arguments from others more carefully next time.

    All, I am doing is stating facts that have an effect on millions of people today. The Palestinian "Nakba", is the other side of the story and shouldn't be ignored.


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    #65
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Whichever side of the fence you are on, one cannot deny the fact that the 60 years has been heavily punctuated by violence. Blame is not clear cut: Israel stated but unfortunately the Palestinians replied (as is human nature). The only reason it has continued is because of the failure of the UN, or otherwise, to intervene. The U.S. is great for claiming human rights abuses in China etc, but not so great at criticizing its friends like Israel.

    The core issue is that Israel has US support, which has resulted in them getting the upper hand (arsenal of "democracy" and all that). Its time Israel gave the respect to Palestinians that it demands off of them. For example not killing innocent people, and I have a certain Reuters cameraman in mind.


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    #66
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Your like a dog with a bone Wes, you just wont let go ............

    As I said before, there must be more to talk about than Wes's preoccupation with ethnic cleansing & 'his personal view' of Israel.

    I lived there (as I said before), and its a truly Great Country with a very complex history, the food is great, the wine too, the people are very welcoming with a touch of suspicion & paranoia about visitors intentions, but who could blame them with what they have had to put-up with since the foundation of the modern State of Israel, from suicide Bombings to the Six Day War & beyond.

    The first Kibbutz I visited in Northern Israel several years ago had been attacked by a loan gunman parrachuting into the Kibbutz & straffing the Kibbutznicks with his automatic rifle, many died .........
    that was just one story from 'my' side of the argument.

    I have nothing but support for Israel & her people.


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    #67
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    turgon wrote: »
    Whichever side of the fence you are on, one cannot deny the fact that the 60 years has been heavily punctuated by violence. Blame is not clear cut: Israel stated but unfortunately the Palestinians replied (as is human nature). The only reason it has continued is because of the failure of the UN, or otherwise, to intervene. The U.S. is great for claiming human rights abuses in China etc, but not so great at criticizing its friends like Israel.

    The core issue is that Israel has US support, which has resulted in them getting the upper hand (arsenal of "democracy" and all that). Its time Israel gave the respect to Palestinians that it demands off of them. For example not killing innocent people, and I have a certain Reuters cameraman in mind.

    Well said, but it should be noted that the UN did try to intervene, with hundreds of condemnations and about 65 resolutions. All have sadly been ignored though by Israel. Unfortunately we live in a world where 'might makes right'. Much like Yahweh's behaviour in the Old Testament - he can fvck with everyone because he can, and nobody can stop him.


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    #68
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    ArthurF wrote: »
    I lived there (as I said before), and its a truly Great Country with a very complex history, the food is great, the wine too, the people are very welcoming with a touch of suspicion & paranoia about visitors intentions, but who could blame them with what they have had to put-up with since the foundation of the modern State of Israel, from suicide Bombings to the Six Day War & beyond.

    Arthur F, I don't doubt for a second that living in Israel is great and god knows they have a such a strong culture (I suppose because it is threatened). What we are saying is that life in Palestine, east of the wall, is atrocious because of Israels actions.

    Sorry if this is OTT, but the great Israel you experienced was created on the blood of many thousands of innocent people, and this bloodshed continues because of a failure by Israel to respect the Arabs. And it is not helped by the US.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
    Terms and conditions: Only if you friend of the US.


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    #69
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Your like a dog with a bone Wes, you just wont let go ............

    Childish name calling.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    As I said before, there must be more to talk about than Wes's preoccupation with ethnic cleansing & 'his personal view' of Israel.

    Its hardly a personal view. I am not the only one who shares it. You have yet to challenge what I am saying successfully.

    You tried to say that ethnic cleansing should only apply to the holocaust and that it had the same meaning as genocide, I proved you wrong there.

    You then presented someone else argument, that didn't even deny what I was saying at all and tried to justify it. It was also largely irrelevant.

    Anyway, I am just talking about the thread topic.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    I lived there (as I said before), and its a truly Great Country with a very complex history, the food is great, the wine too, the people are very welcoming with a touch of suspicion & paranoia about visitors intentions, but who could blame them with what they have had to put-up with since the foundation of the modern State of Israel, from suicide Bombings to the Six Day War & beyond.

    So?

    Doesn't change what was done to the Palestinians.

    Also, you didn't live in say, Gaza. Maybe you would have a different view.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    The first Kibbutz I visited in Northern Israel several years ago had been attacked by a loan gunman parrachuting into the Kibbutz & straffing the Kibbutznicks with his automatic rifle, many died .........
    that was just one story from 'my' side of the argument.

    No one is denying that Israeli civilians have been attacked. This doesn't change or excuse what Israel does.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    I have nothing but support for Israel & her people.

    Not everyone shares you view.


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    #70
    Gobán Saor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭Gobán Saor


    OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »
    Well said, but it should be noted that the UN did try to intervene, with hundreds of condemnations and about 65 resolutions. All have sadly been ignored though by Israel.
    What about the very first one, Resolution 181 in 1947 which proposed a 53% to 47% split between the Jewish and the Arab states to be established in Palestine. The Jewish groups accepted this, though it was far less than they had argued for. The Arabs didn't, they weren't prepared to accept any Jewish state at all. War ensued, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq invaded, the Arabs lost and ended up with 23% of the territory.


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    #71
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Gobán Saor wrote: »
    What about the very first one, Resolution 181 in 1947 which proposed a 53% to 47% split between the Jewish and the Arab states to be established in Palestine. The Jewish groups accepted this, though it was far less than they had argued for. The Arabs didn't, they weren't prepared to accept any Jewish state at all. War ensued, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq invaded, the Arabs lost and ended up with 23% of the territory.

    They did? Why is there no Palestinian state with 47% of the land then? There is no Palestinian state and Israel is still ignoring all the resolutions. Lets not forget all the Palestinians driven out of what is today Israel, I don't remember the resolution okaying that. Also, the Palestinians were the majority and were not consulted on western nations giving away there country.

    The state of Israel is stealing more land as we speak, violating resolutions as we speak and yet you seem to think it ok. Where is the Palestinian state that Israel agreed to? There doesn't seem to be one. So there acceptance, has yet to be backed up with any action.

    Still it always amazing how Zionists seem to think it ok for Israel to ignore resolutions, but everyone else should abide by them.


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    #72
    rowlandbrowner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭rowlandbrowner


    ArthurF wrote: »

    I have nothing but support for Israel & her people.

    question, how do you feel about palestine & the palestinians? you seem so besotted with Israel and its population, I wonder what feelings you have towards the palestinians. Would you ever holiday or live there?


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    #73
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    wes wrote: »
    Childish name calling.

    Its not childish of me to say that 'you are like a dog with a bone' because here we are at Post#73, still going-on about your constant use of the term Ethnic Cleansing' & you just wont stop because you are so brainwashed & blinkered, its hardly (childish of me) to point this out! & all I am saying is, lets move on ...
    wes wrote: »
    Its hardly a personal view. I am not the only one who shares it. You have yet to challenge what I am saying successfully.
    But I did respond by saying that we could take over the next ten pages with Ethnic Cleansing, but I added that this was probably not the thread to take over with your 'preocupation' so I suggested a LINK which argues my point as to who has done ethnic cleansing to who in Israel ~ but you obviously didnt didnt like the Link argument ~ so you dismissed it!
    wes wrote: »
    You tried to say that ethnic cleansing should only apply to the holocaust and that it had the same meaning as genocide, I proved you wrong there.
    Maybe you have proved me wrong (but only in your own mind) and the point I was making was that if you are going to throw around a provocative & emotive term like 'ethnic cleansing' or even Genocide then maybe you should apply these terms to Explosive & Obvious situations (Like the Holocaust)! I didnt say the term should only apply to the Holocaust . . . . . but if one starts using a 'Powerful & Hatefilled' term then it looses its currency, because everybody can start saying that they were ethnically cleansed by somebody else if they go back through their history, and you have deliberately used the term as a 'hate tool' against Israel.
    wes wrote: »
    You then presented someone else argument, that didn't even deny what I was saying at all and tried to justify it. It was also largely irrelevant.

    Irrelevent? only if it suits you no doubt :cool:
    wes wrote: »
    Anyway, I am just talking about the thread topic.
    Er, No, you are not talking about the thread Topic, you are fixated by your hatred for Israel & by your constant references to ethnic cleansing of Palistinians (by Israel) & I happen to Strongly disagree with you.
    wes wrote: »
    Not everyone shares you view.

    And not everybody shares your view either ~ Good night.


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    #74
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    meh... a huge amount of Western countries foundations are overshadowed by tragedy and violence. personally i find most 'independence days' offensive, but meh. if 4th of July can pass of annually without hitch then Israel should be allowed also. 'tis to the future we should look anyway, what's done is done, and can't be changed. We should be looking to end differences, not create them. so all this is pointless imo.


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    #75
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island :(

    Would you consider retracting this comment ?? I mean, you wouldn't want to be labeled Anti Irish, or Anti Christian, would you?? Consider if someone slurred Israel in this way ? The AIPAC and ADL attack dogs would eat you to the f*cking bone...
    The fact that "Ehud Olmert" has just been snared taking backhanders from a wealthy Jewish American businessman says it all IMO.


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    #76
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Its not childish of me to say that 'you are like a dog with a bone' because here we are at Post#73, still going-on about your constant use of the term Ethnic Cleansing' & you just wont stop because you are so brainwashed & blinkered, its hardly (childish of me) to point this out! & all I am saying is, lets move on ...

    Erm, no. You have proven nothing at all. I have pointed that out already.

    Again it was a childish insult. Its amazing that you are actually trying to present it as anything else. Instead of trying to discuss anything you decided to insult me. You compared me to a dog. Most people would consider that a childish insult.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    But I did respond by saying that we could take over the next ten pages with Ethnic Cleansing, but I added that this was probably not the thread to take over with your 'preocupation' so I suggested a LINK which argues my point as to who has done ethnic cleansing to who in Israel ~ but you obviously didnt didnt like the Link argument ~ so you dismissed it!

    I didn't dismiss it at all. I addressed it. The argument you presented, didn't back you up.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    Maybe you have proved me wrong (but only in your own mind) and the point I was making was that if you are going to throw around a provocative & emotive term like 'ethnic cleansing' or even Genocide then maybe you should apply these terms to Explosive & Obvious situations (Like the Holocaust)!

    I never said Genocide. There is already a term for the holocaust. Also, we aren't discussing the holocaust.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    I didnt say the term should only apply to the Holocaust . . . . . but if one starts using a 'Powerful & Hatefilled' term then it looses its currency, because everybody can start saying that they were ethnically cleansed by somebody else if they go back through their history, and you have deliberately used the term as a 'hate tool' against Israel.

    You keep accusing me of hate. Truly pathetic. Back it up.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    Irrelevent? only if it suits you no doubt :cool:

    Yeah, it was largely that.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    Er, No, you are not talking about the thread Topic, you are fixated by your hatred for Israel & by your constant references to ethnic cleansing of Palistinians (by Israel) & I happen to Strongly disagree with you.

    I have addresses all your points and the argument you grabbed from somewhere else.

    Also, you keep accusing me of this hatred. Again, back it up.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    And not everybody shares your view either ~ Good night.

    True.


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    #77
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Arthur F is a troll and should be banned IMHO.

    Nothing to do with Isreal, It's ethnic cleansing is well documented. Its exactly the same as the Nazi's did onto them. The Americans selected land for them. Isrealis should not exist. It is not their land. Even their physical look iis changing fast. They look more like arabs by the day!


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    #78
    Gobán Saor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭Gobán Saor


    wes wrote: »
    They did? Why is there no Palestinian state with 47% of the land then?
    Because in 1947, the Palestinians themselves rejected this option. Also the surrounding Arab states were opposed or at best, highly suspicious of an independent Palestinian state. Which is largely why they invaded and tried to annex the territory themselves

    Because in the years from 1949 to 1969, the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian rule. Ask why no Palestinian state was set up them? Or ask why the Palestinian inhabitants were kept in miserable refugee camps not by the Israelis but by their Arab rulers (occupiers?)

    Because after 1969, the Palestinians ignored that bit of Resolution 242 which called for peace between the parties (thus recognising Israel's right to exist) and focussed only on the bit that said (that after such a peace) Israel should withdraw to the 1949 boundaries.

    Because the Palestinians rejected the Clinton peace plan in 2000 (which the Israelis were willing to accept) Which would have given them an independent state on 100% of Gaza and 95% of the West Bank plus some additional territory transferred from Israel.
    wes wrote: »
    Still it always amazing how Zionists seem to think it ok for Israel to ignore resolutions, but everyone else should abide by them.
    And likewise in reverse! :cool:


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    #79
    tallus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭tallus


    leninbenjamin wrote: »
    meh... a huge amount of Western countries foundations are overshadowed by tragedy and violence. personally i find most 'independence days' offensive, but meh. if 4th of July can pass of annually without hitch then Israel should be allowed also. 'tis to the future we should look anyway, what's done is done, and can't be changed. We should be looking to end differences, not create them. so all this is pointless imo.

    +1
    Excellent post.


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    #80
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    darkman2 wrote: »
    Arthur F is a troll and should be banned IMHO.

    Nothing to do with Isreal, It's ethnic cleansing is well documented. Its exactly the same as the Nazi's did onto them. The Americans selected land for them. Isrealis should not exist. It is not their land. Even their physical look iis changing fast. They look more like arabs by the day!

    Two things:
    What in God's name is a Troll? (thats the 3rd time I have been accused of this) but what does it mean?

    And the "Israelis should not exist" comment ~ are you serious?

    P.S. I wont come back on Wes, otherwise we will be here all day, dog with a bone, or no dog with a bone :)


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    #81
    El Stuntman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    darkman2 wrote: »
    Isrealis should not exist. It is not their land. Even their physical look iis changing fast. They look more like arabs by the day!

    hardly surprising - they are all Semites


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    #82
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    ArthurF wrote: »
    What in God's name is a Troll? (thats the 3rd time I have been accused of this) but what does it mean?
    A troll is something the charter explicitly says you're not allowed to accuse people of being, and darkman2 is on thin ice.
    And the "Israelis should not exist" comment ~ are you serious?
    No, he's trolling.

    I've asked already that this discussion be kept civil. I won't ask again.


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    #83
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Gobán Saor wrote: »
    Because in 1947, the Palestinians themselves rejected this option. Also the surrounding Arab states were opposed or at best, highly suspicious of an independent Palestinian state. Which is largely why they invaded and tried to annex the territory themselves

    Because in the years from 1949 to 1969, the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian rule. Ask why no Palestinian state was set up them? Or ask why the Palestinian inhabitants were kept in miserable refugee camps not by the Israelis but by their Arab rulers (occupiers?)

    Because after 1969, the Palestinians ignored that bit of Resolution 242 which called for peace between the parties (thus recognising Israel's right to exist) and focussed only on the bit that said (that after such a peace) Israel should withdraw to the 1949 boundaries.

    Well, when the PLO did accept Israel, why was no state then offered? Israel has never actually taken any such steps, they offered what amounted to Bantustan.
    Gobán Saor wrote: »
    Because the Palestinians rejected the Clinton peace plan in 2000 (which the Israelis were willing to accept) Which would have given them an independent state on 100% of Gaza and 95% of the West Bank plus some additional territory transferred from Israel.

    That a myth simply put. No such offer was ever made.
    From the Guardian:

    A Palestinian this week, spotting for the first time new Jewish houses on the outskirts of Jerusalem, said: "It is like a magic wand. You go away for a few weeks and then suddenly there is a whole new place." The Israeli government, supposedly committed to no new settlements, announced this week a further 700 new houses. The Israeli government finds it easy to keep to its commitment to build no new settlements: because there are so many already on the West Bank, all it has to do is just keep expanding existing ones.

    It is against this background that Barak's "generous" deal should be seen. The Israelis portrayed it as the Palestinians receiving 96% of the West Bank. But the figure is misleading. The Israelis did not include parts of the West Bank they had already appropriated.

    The Palestine that would have emerged from such a settlement would not have been viable. It would have been in about half-a-dozen chunks, with huge Jewish settlements in between - a Middle East Bantustan. The Israeli army would also have retained the proposed Palestinian state's eastern border, the Jordan valley, for six to 10 years and, more significantly, another strip along the Dead Sea coast for an unspecified period: so much for being an independent state.

    No offer of a state was ever made. They were offered what amounted to a Bantustan.
    Gobán Saor wrote: »
    And likewise in reverse! :cool:

    I never said the Arabs shouldn't accept the resolution, just that it is unreasonable to give other people land away.


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    #84
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Decent piece in today's Indo on the subject:

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/israel-from-independence-to-intifada-1369822.html

    ArthurF may feel the need to contact the Indo and criticise them for mentioning any "bad stuff" on Israel's birthday - cheeky bastards.


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    #85
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Two things:
    P.S. I wont come back on Wes, otherwise we will be here all day, dog with a bone, or no dog with a bone :)

    Well, I know its hard being wrong, but your nonsense never proved anything and this latest post is more of the same.


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    #86
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,787 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Decent piece in today's Indo on the subject:

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/israel-from-independence-to-intifada-1369822.html

    ArthurF may feel the need to contact the Indo and criticise them for mentioning any "bad stuff" on Israel's birthday - cheeky bastards.

    speaking of "bad stuff" at least there is no mention in that article of the relationship between Mugabe and the government of Israel.


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    #87
    Chakar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭Chakar


    http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0591/9105017.htm

    This is a very interesting article about the recognition of Israel by President Truman. It might take a while to read all of it.


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    #88
    Suff
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    A good reading on the history of Israel would help clear few points and myths found within the media and in today's politics.

    I see no future for Israel, they've struggled for over 60 years to establish peace and security with the backing of the major political and military powers...and guess what?.....they all failed!

    Their only hope/ chance of any peace is by making the "land" a multi-ethnic state with full rights to all Muslims, Christians and Jews...and ofcourse accept all exiled palestinians right to return to their homeland.

    If not....then what's taken by force will only be returned by force.


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    #89
    Suff
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    Chakar wrote: »
    http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0591/9105017.htm

    Excellent read, thanks for the like.
    Truman had bluntly explained his motivation:

    "I'm sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism: I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents."
    One can't be more blunt than that!


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    #90
    Chakar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭Chakar


    Gobán Saor wrote: »
    What about the very first one, Resolution 181 in 1947 which proposed a 53% to 47% split between the Jewish and the Arab states to be established in Palestine. The Jewish groups accepted this, though it was far less than they had argued for. The Arabs didn't, they weren't prepared to accept any Jewish state at all. War ensued, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq invaded, the Arabs lost and ended up with 23% of the territory.

    The Arab-Israeli War was fought between the states of Egypt, Jordan and Syria while Iraq and other Arab states contributed troops and military supplies.


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    #91
    Chakar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭Chakar


    Suff wrote: »
    A good reading on the history of Israel would help clear few points and myths found within the media and in today's politics.

    This link provides a clear report to Palestine, Israel and the Arab-Israeli Conflict. It's very well structured and concise.

    http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html


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