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Israel Independence Day!....Whats your thought?
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The plight of palestinians is very well represented in Irish media (Robert Frisk is published in the Indo. for e.g) and the subject of Israel being a rather nice place to be...isn't.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »completely ignores the real issues.
I don't think I've given you the arguement your looking in saying that.0 -
humberklog wrote: »No it doesn't. The journalist is writing a piece regarding Israel from their point of view on certain topics they choose to deal with. The plight of palestinians is very well represented in Irish media (Robert Frisk is published in the Indo. for e.g) and the subject of Israel being a rather nice place to be...isn't. Every column inch regarding Israel doesn't always have to start and end on items that you regard as being 'the real issues' as they are not always 'the real issues' to others. The column struck me as being only ok in highlighting the general negative passions felt for Israel and Israelis in general. Not every article has to say what you think it should say. That's how we get a bit of balance into debate.
I see very little good in the News about say Zimbabwe. Should the news balance things out, by trying to find something nice about Mugabe? Plenty of countries have negative press coverage, Myanmar being a recent example, should the news find something nice about the Junta? Israel isn't the only nation to (rightly) receive a lot of bad press. Israel is an apartheid state, this will lead to negative press.
I see no reason, why Israel should be given some special status in this regard. The Palestinian issue should always be brought up in regards to Israel. All the great stuff about Israel is built upon the misery of Palestinians, this is why that subject will always be relevant.0 -
Wes...you're kinda making my point here.I see very little good in the News about say Zimbabwe. Should the news balance things out, by trying to find something nice about Mugabe?(A dictator? I'd say no.) Plenty of countries have negative press coverage, Myanmar being a recent example, should the news find something nice about the Junta?(Not too much good to say about them at the moment unless you were one of the lucky recepients of the 6DVD players given out during the week) Israel isn't the only nation to (rightly) receive a lot of bad press. Israel is an apartheid state, this will lead to negative press.
I see no reason, why Israel should be given some special status in this regard. (I don't agree) The Palestinian issue should always be brought up in regards to Israel.(I don't agree here either) All the great stuff about Israel is built upon the misery of Palestinians,(nor do I agree here) this is why that subject will always be relevant.(Meh..to some)0 -
humberklog wrote: »Wes...you're kinda making my point here.
Not really. There are plenty of other countries that don't get good press. Why should Israel be special? Thats my point. I see no reason, why Israel somehow deserves better press than Zimbabwe. My point is Israel, deserves no special treatment. Thats my point.
Plenty of places give Israel good press. Sorry, but your argument that all the media does is show bad stuff about Israel is untrue. There is plenty of positive press, especially in the US. Your point doesn't make sense, as Israel gets better press than Myanmar or Zimbabwe. The ADL/Camera/Melanie Phillips etc and organizations like that jump to Israel defense all the time, to challenge any criticism of Israel. Plenty of other do so as well. The article mentioned is also proof that the press isn't all negative about Israel.
All the complaining about bad press, seems to me that some people, dislike criticism of Israel and nothing more. The complaining is largely based on some false hood that Israel is uniquely condemned by the media (Zimbabwe and Myanmar hardly receive good press, and there are others), despite all the positive spin Israel is given by certain parts of the media and all the self appointed defenders.
At the end of the day you seem to want special treatment for Israel, an apartheid state deserves no such thing. Then there is the simple fact, that what you talking about isn't true. There is a lot of criticism of Israel, but plenty who defend it. So overall, the complaints are largely unfounded.0 -
Not jumping down throats here Wes but you've mis-read my post. I said well represented in Irish media.0
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Happy Birthday Israel, going to work for a month there in July.
As for the people here from Syria (Invaded Lebanon lately, blown up any Lebanese Ministers, Fund Terrorism (Hezbollah for example), Oppress the Lebanese people and actually also Palestinians in the camps in Lebanon.
It seems that two dominant people in this thread Wes and Suff are supporters of terrorism if so please do it elsewhere.
I am new to boards and what I have read in this thread alone disgusts me..
Waiting for the flak from the Pro-terrorists and people who know zero about the situation...
Oh yeah and don’t bore me with Wikipedia or pro - terrorist website links, if I want a laugh I will go to Murphy’s Laughter Lounge...
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humberklog wrote: »Not jumping down throats here Wes but you've mis-read my post. I said well represented in Irish media.
We can get media all over the world here as well. Anyway, I still reckon what I say still applies, plenty out there to defend Israel.
However, apologies for mis-reading what you said.0 -
As for the people here from Syria (Invaded Lebanon lately, blown up any Lebanese Ministers, Fund Terrorism (Hezbollah for example), Oppress the Lebanese people and actually also Palestinians in the camps in Lebanon.
Hardly relevant to the thread. Just because some other countries does something wrong, doesn't excuse Israel actions. Typical and largely pointless tactic.It seems that two dominant people in this thread Wes and Suff are supporters of terrorism if so please do it elsewhere.
Complete nonsense.
You clearly have trouble with reading and comprehension, as I said nothing to support terrorism.
Perhaps you shouldn't throw around baseless accusations.I am new to boards and what I have read in this thread alone disgusts me.
Your baseless accusations against me (and other posters) disgust me.Waiting for the flak from the Pro-terrorists and people who know zero about the situation...
More baseless accusations. You have shown you know nothing at all about anyone in this thread.]Oh yeah and don’t bore me with Wikipedia or pro - terrorist website links, if I want a laugh I will go to Murphy’s Laughter Lounge...
I posted plenty of links. I tend to stick with main stream news sites. Care to back up anything you said. How are main stream news sites, pro-terrorist? Oh wait, there not and your spouting nonsense.0 -
It seems that two dominant people in this thread Wes and Suff are supporters of terrorism if so please do it elsewhere.
And what would you call what Israel indulges in in Palastine?Definition of Terrorism wrote:The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
I think I would call it terrorism.0 -
It seems that two dominant people in this thread Wes and Suff are supporters of terrorism if so please do it elsewhere.
Israel was founded by Zionist terror groups like Haganah and Irgun, who murdered and bombed. They blew up the King David Hotel and hanged two British Colonels. According to Zionism, Israel is supposed to extend all the way from Egypt to Iraq. Groups like the PLO and Hezbollah were founded ONLY because of Israeli aggression. Israel continues to terrorise the Palestinians to this day, including women and children (whom they use as human shields).
Looks like YOU are the one who supports terrorism.0 -
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i do think a lot of you may have bit on a troll there! happens to us all. Anyway I'm out the door to put last bit of my celebrations to bed. This evening has been organised by a lebanese friend (she's the daughter of my ex-landlord when I stayed a few months in Bierut, where i had the great misfortune to have R. Fisk as a neighbour. Not because of his political leanings but because he's a complete pain in the arse.),the evenings dinner is being held in the house of my syrian ex-boss when I was in England, 2 Iraqis from a backgammon club that I and said Lebanese girl started about 3year a go and an Israeli and his wife that I worked with on a site in Dublin. There will of course be a few Irish friends there too. These little events are often held between us and never once is ethnic cleansing, hezbollah, hamas, illegal occupations brought up. These topics aren't avioded they simply don't arise. I will be bringing up a few jokes about the priests at the wailing wall that I heard.
We could all well be politically dimetrically opposed, we don't know, because were too busy sharing wine and stories on a fence about a wonderful region of the world; the middle east.0 -
humberklog wrote: »We could all well be politically dimetrically opposed, we don't know, because were too busy sharing wine and stories on a fence about a wonderful region of the world; the middle east.
Golly good, no doubt you will have lovely evening. However talking about fences, whereas you will be "on a fence", the Palestinians will be beside a fence (or a wall) which encloses them in a land of unemployment and depression. This fence has been created by Israelis and they refuse to let people easily pass to tend their farms on the other side. This fence is outside of their international border, and is a testament to all that is wrong in the world. It is a greedy settlement beyond the agreed boundary that shows how little Israel shows the respect it demands off of others.
Have a nice night.0 -
humberklog wrote: »i do think a lot of you may have bit on a troll there! happens to us all. Anyway I'm out the door to put last bit of my celebrations to bed. This evening has been organised by a lebanese friend (she's the daughter of my ex-landlord when I stayed a few months in Bierut, where i had the great misfortune to have R. Fisk as a neighbour. Not because of his political leanings but because he's a complete pain in the arse.),the evenings dinner is being held in the house of my syrian ex-boss when I was in England, 2 Iraqis from a backgammon club that I and said Lebanese girl started about 3year a go and an Israeli and his wife that I worked with on a site in Dublin. There will of course be a few Irish friends there too. These little events are often held between us and never once is ethnic cleansing, hezbollah, hamas, illegal occupations brought up. These topics aren't avioded they simply don't arise. I will be bringing up a few jokes about the priests at the wailing wall that I heard.
We could all well be politically dimetrically opposed, we don't know, because were too busy sharing wine and stories on a fence about a wonderful region of the world; the middle east.
This is a politics forum. The whole point is to discuss stuff like illegal occupations, ethnic cleansing, elections, and politicians etc. I rarely discuss such things with mates on a night out as well. I think your sorta missing the point of the forum.
Anyway have a good night.0 -
humberklog wrote: »...being held in the house of my syrian ex-boss when I was in England, 2 Iraqis from a backgammon club that I and said Lebanese girl started about 3year a go and an Israeli and his wife that I worked with on a site in Dublin. There will of course be a few Irish friends there too. These little events are often held between us and never once is ethnic cleansing, hezbollah, hamas, illegal occupations brought up. These topics aren't avioded they simply don't arise.
Bringing up politics and history is dangerous at the best of times, bringing up middle east politics and history among such a mixed group could be a great way to cast a very dark pall over proceedings! :pac:humberklog wrote: »...a wonderful region of the world; the middle east.
Really?.net wrote:if I want a laugh I will go to Murphy’s Laughter Lounge...
oh dear0 -
I see no reason, why Israel somehow deserves better press than Zimbabwe.
OK then, perhaps you missed the following:
Reasons why Israel is better than Zimbabwe- Democracy.
It's not a de-facto one party state. It has free and fair elections. Governments lose elections from time to time. There's a change of government when they lose an election. It doesn't recount votes when the Government loses an election. Israeli Arabs participate and make up a significant bloc in the Knesset.
- Freedom of Expression
It has a (very) free press. Foreign journalists are free to enter. - Rule of Law
It has an independent judiciary open to all - an Israeli Arab has served on the Supreme Court. The Government does not win every court case. - Economy
Its Government has not turned the country into an economic basket case. It doesn't have inflation at zillions of per cent per annum. It has a thriving high tech industry. It has higher living standards than its neighbouring countries.
And yes, I know its not perfect, and yes, its behaviour leaves a lot to be desired but to say it doesn't deserve a better press than Zimbabwe......:D:D:D0 - Democracy.
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Gobán Saor wrote: »[*]Democracy.
It's not a de-facto one party state. It has free and fair elections. Governments lose elections from time to time. There's a change of government when they lose an election. It doesn't recount votes when the Government loses an election. Israeli Arabs participate and make up a significant bloc in the Knesset.
[/LIST]
If a Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, wants to change the state, to a state of all its citizens, as opposed to a Jewish state. They can't run for office. Hardly what I would call a democracy. Its a democracy for one ethnic group. Not a real democracy.
Then there the whole apartheid thing that disqualifies it.Gobán Saor wrote: »- Freedom of Expression
It has a (very) free press. Foreign journalists are free to enter.
Very true. Doesn't amount to anything. Israel is still engaging in its colonialism etc.Gobán Saor wrote: »[*]Rule of Law
It has an independent judiciary open to all - an Israeli Arab has served on the Supreme Court. The Government does not win every court case.
This one is a bad joke. What with all the illegal colonies and everything. Its amazing you would actually even say this, when it clearly false. Then there are all the international laws its violating.Gobán Saor wrote: »[*]Economy
Its Government has not turned the country into an economic basket case. It doesn't have inflation at zillions of per cent per annum. It has a thriving high tech industry. It has higher living standards than its neighbouring countries.
So what? You do realize, I never said Zimbabwe and Israel are the same. Anyway, I will point the Gaza, where Israel has imprisoned a whole ethnic group. Then there the poverty of the Palestinians and all the land Israel has stolen from them.
Anyway, Apartheid South Africa, had a great economy too. Didn't amount to anything, they were still eventually condemned by most of the world (except Israel who were the last hold out, helping Apartheid South Africa.).Gobán Saor wrote: »And yes, I know its not perfect, and yes, its behaviour leaves a lot to be desired but to say it doesn't deserve a better press than Zimbabwe.
Israel doesn't deserve better press. You cherry picked a few good things, and even one of them is basically wrong.
So, lets look at all Israels negative points. World largest, open air prison Gaza. Apartheid. Denial of Ethnic cleansing. Racist laws for all Palestinians, both inside and outside Israel. House demolitions. Colonialism. Violating international law etc.
Basically, you want special treatment for Israel. Then there is the simple fact that Israel, actually gets a lot of good press in anyways, as I pointed out earlier.
Israels negative press is down to one simple reason, people now know whats going on there and will tell the world about it.
Anyway back to the original topic, found another disturbing Zionist quote, which shows movements intentions towards the natives:"There is ... a difficulty from which the Zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having 52 souls to every square mile, and not 25 percent of them Jews; so we must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did, or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan."
-- From a speech given by Israel Zangwill in New York in 1904, reprinted in Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem (London: William Heinemann, 1920), p. 88, quoted in Hani A. Faris, Israel Zangwill's Challenge to Zionism. (source)0 - Freedom of Expression
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Israel Independence Day
Today marks Israel's "independence day" celebrations in Mount Hertzel in Jerusalem.
imho it should be called "Occupation Day"...
I would like to know whats your thoughts on this.
Like Columbus day there are always going to be more than one view.
I doubt that Israel is going to call it "Occupation Day".0 -
Like Columbus day there are always doing to be more than one view.
Columbus day, is quite frankly a disturbing holiday. Considering, the things the guy did. The US government should show some decency, and change it to a day or remembrance for the Native American's and the crimes committed against them.0 -
If you want to trade disturbing quotes, here's some for you. The Grand Mufti of jerusalem, one Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, while spending most of WW2 as Hitler's guest in Berlin proposed an Arab-Nazi alliance with the following terms:Anyway back to the original topic, found another disturbing Zionist quote, which shows movements intentions towards the natives:
Well, we know what that means, don't we?Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.
The Mufti was a charming man, no doubt. He raised a force of over 10,000 muslims in Bosnia for the Waffen SS which carried out massacres of Jews and other untermenschen. For this he was sentenced to 3 years imprisonment by a Yugoslav war crimes court. Happily he escaped from arrest and was granted asylum in Egypt.
He was friendly with Eichmann and Himmler and is alleged (this is disputed and not proved) to have been privileged with a visit to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Not disputed are his regular broadcasts on Radio Berlin. In one such broadcast on March 1, 1944, he said:Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.
Of course, he is much admired by Palestinians today In 2002 Yassar Arafat said in an interview:
Now try, very, very hard to see things from an Israeli point of view in 1948, three years after WW2 and facing armed attacks from forces allied to this chappie......We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini?... There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops.0 -
Two things: first, read the charter (as well as my repeated warnings on this thread), specifically the bit about getting personal. Two, neither you nor anyone else* gets to tell people to take things elsewhere.It seems that two dominant people in this thread Wes and Suff are supporters of terrorism if so please do it elsewhere.
*Except me and the other mods, of course.0 -
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Ok id like to make my opinion quite clear. As regards domestic issues, I know that Israel is not like Zimbabwe or Burma etc, it has a free press and judiciary etc etc. No one on this thread is denouncing that. Yet "Gobán Saor" seems to think we are. You mention loads of positive points on Israel, I have not given out about any of that.
The only domestic issue of real concern is the way only Jews can run for office. That is technically a racist policy.
What I am giving out about is the way Israel "does business" in the middle-east at large. Whereas there is no doubt that Israeli citizens live freely under democracy, the state of Israel has single-handedly created a situation where Palestinians do not. And the Israelis are doing nothing to rectify this.
Instead they are building a "protection wall" many miles outside of their border. And why are they allowed? Because of the favoritism shown to them by the "democratic", "patriotic" and "freedom-fighting" Americans.0 -
Well, actually some are. Wes said "Isarel didn't deserve a better press than Zimbabwe." I just pointed out a few areas where it did. I'm glad you seem to agreeAs regards domestic issues, I know that Israel is not like Zimbabwe or Burma etc, it has a free press and judiciary etc etc. No one on this thread is denouncing that. Yet "Gobán Saor" seems to think we are.
Fair enough I do. I also accept that Israel is far from perfect and has many faults. However, the market for criticism of Israel is fairly crowded and in concentrating on its virtues I am merely attempting to provide some counterweight to the avalanche of Anti-Israeli commentary on this board and elsewhere.You mention loads of positive points on Israel, I have not given out about any of that.
It would be if it were true. About 1.4 million "Israeli Arabs" or Palestinians live in Israel. They are full citizens of Israel with the right to vote and stand for office. They constitute about 10% of elected members of the Israeli parliament. While no Arab party has ever formed part of a Government coalition they have entered negotiations on the formation of coalition governments and have often supported Labour governments in the Knesset. (Individual Arab members have served as ministers in Labour governments.) The only discrimination is one in their favour - they are not (along with ultra religious jews) obliged to serve in the military. There is no apartheid - they participate fully in Israeli life and have held senior positions in the civil service and justice system - up to and including the Israeli Supreme Court, deputy speaker of the Knesset, cabinet minister and acting President of Israel. The same freedoms apply to Israeli Christians and Druze.The only domestic issue of real concern is the way only Jews can run for office. That is technically a racist policy.
Well, not quite single-handedly. Remember that the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian rule respectively from 1949 to 1967. Those states were happy to allow the Palestinian refugees to live in squalor and deny them a state of their own. It suited the cynical interests of Arab dictators to demonise Israel as a distraction from their own misrule. Many Arab states don't allow Palestinian refugees to work and keep them in refugee camps to this day.What I am giving out about is the way Israel "does business" in the middle-east at large. Whereas there is no doubt that Israeli citizens live freely under democracy, the state of Israel has single-handedly created a situation where Palestinians do not.
Incidentally those same Arab states expelled over 800,000 Jews from their own territories after 1948. Many were robbed not only of their land but also money and other possessions. More than 600,000 of these have been absorbed into Israel. Ethnic cleansing is not all one way traffic in the middle east.
The protection wall is an offensive concept, I'll concede that. However, it has been spectacularly successful in reducing the incidence of suicide bombers in Israel. Israel is entitled to take action to protect itself until a lasting peace agreement is put in place.Instead they are building a "protection wall" many miles outside of their border. And why are they allowed? Because of the favoritism shown to them by the "democratic", "patriotic" and "freedom-fighting" Americans.0 -
Gobán Saor wrote: »If you want to trade disturbing quotes, here's some for you. The Grand Mufti of jerusalem, one Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, while spending most of WW2 as Hitler's guest in Berlin proposed an Arab-Nazi alliance with the following terms: Well, we know what that means, don't we?
Gurion was the first Prime Minister of Israel, kinda trumps the grand mufti, who was one guy. Gurion lead the Zionist movement as well. Big difference don't you think? The leader of the Zionist movement who intended to drive out the Palestinians as opposed to a man who fled to Germany and was responsible for his own actions. What he did wasn't the fault of the Palestinians.
Also, the Mufti wasn't leader of the Arab forces.Gobán Saor wrote: »The Mufti was a charming man, no doubt. He raised a force of over 10,000 muslims in Bosnia for the Waffen SS which carried out massacres of Jews and other untermenschen. For this he was sentenced to 3 years imprisonment by a Yugoslav war crimes court. Happily he escaped from arrest and was granted asylum in Egypt.
So? How is this the fault of the Palestinians? Oh wait it wasn't. It was the fault of the Mufti. The quote I provide are from people directly involved in the events of Palestine and the leaders of the Zionists.Gobán Saor wrote: »He was friendly with Eichmann and Himmler and is alleged (this is disputed and not proved) to have been privileged with a visit to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Not disputed are his regular broadcasts on Radio Berlin. In one such broadcast on March 1, 1944, he said:
Of course, he is much admired by Palestinians today In 2002 Yassar Arafat said in an interview: Now try, very, very hard to see things from an Israeli point of view in 1948, three years after WW2 and facing armed attacks from forces allied to this chappie......
They weren't allied to him actually. He was a minor figure who didn't lead or run anything at that point. Nice try to make him out to be more than he really is. The Egyptians shouldn't have given him refuge, but then that still isn't the fault of the Palestinians. Its amazing your trying to provide excuses for what the Zionists did.
The quotes I use are from people who were leaders of the Zionist movement and directly behind the Ethnic cleansing. Hell here is another one:"The residents of Lod must be expelled quickly, without classifying them according to age ... implement immediately."
-- Order from Lieutenant Colonel Yitzhak Rabin, operations chief for the Israeli attack on the Palestinian city of Lydda/Lod in 1948 (and later Israeli Chief of Staff and then Prime Minister), to the headquarters of the Yiftah Brigade, 12 July, 1948.
He later became Prime Minister and tried to make peace and was murdered for his efforts. You do see the difference of the people I quote don't you? These are people who were Prime Ministers and government figures in Israel. You provide one guy, who while a terrible human being, was responsible for his own crimes, crimes which are not the fault of the Palestinians.0 -
Gobán Saor wrote: »Well, actually some are. Wes said "Isarel didn't deserve a better press than Zimbabwe." I just pointed out a few areas where it did. I'm glad you seem to agree
Fair enough I do. I also accept that Israel is far from perfect and has many faults. However, the market for criticism of Israel is fairly crowded and in concentrating on its virtues I am merely attempting to provide some counterweight to the avalanche of Anti-Israeli commentary on this board and elsewhere.
It would be if it were true. About 1.4 million "Israeli Arabs" or Palestinians live in Israel. They are full citizens of Israel with the right to vote and stand for office. They constitute about 10% of elected members of the Israeli parliament. While no Arab party has ever formed part of a Government coalition they have entered negotiations on the formation of coalition governments and have often supported Labour governments in the Knesset. (Individual Arab members have served as ministers in Labour governments.) The only discrimination is one in their favour - they are not (along with ultra religious jews) obliged to serve in the military. There is no apartheid - they participate fully in Israeli life and have held senior positions in the civil service and justice system - up to and including the Israeli Supreme Court, deputy speaker of the Knesset, cabinet minister and acting President of Israel. The same freedoms apply to Israeli Christians and Druze.
Well, not quite single-handedly. Remember that the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian rule respectively from 1949 to 1967. Those states were happy to allow the Palestinian refugees to live in squalor and deny them a state of their own. It suited the cynical interests of Arab dictators to demonise Israel as a distraction from their own misrule. Many Arab states don't allow Palestinian refugees to work and keep them in refugee camps to this day.
Incidentally those same Arab states expelled over 800,000 Jews from their own territories after 1948. Many were robbed not only of their land but also money and other possessions. More than 600,000 of these have been absorbed into Israel. Ethnic cleansing is not all one way traffic in the middle east.
The protection wall is an offensive concept, I'll concede that. However, it has been spectacularly successful in reducing the incidence of suicide bombers in Israel. Israel is entitled to take action to protect itself until a lasting peace agreement is put in place.
Very well said and factual compared to the blatant misinformation and extreme anti-Israeli hatred pursued by some.
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Gurion was the first Prime Minister of Israel, kinda trumps the grand mufti, who was one guy. Gurion lead the Zionist movement as well. Big difference don't you think? The leader of the Zionist movement who intended to drive out the Palestinians as opposed to a man who fled to Germany and was responsible for his own actions. What he did wasn't the fault of the Palestinians.
Also, the Mufti wasn't leader of the Arab forces.
So? How is this the fault of the Palestinians? Oh wait it wasn't. It was the fault of the Mufti. The quote I provide are from people directly involved in the events of Palestine and the leaders of the Zionists.
They weren't allied to him actually. He was a minor figure who didn't lead or run anything at that point. Nice try to make him out to be more than he really is. The Egyptians shouldn't have given him refuge, but then that still to the fault of the Palestinians. Its amazing your trying to provide excuses for what the Zionists did.
The quotes I use are from people who were leaders of the Zionist movement and directly behind the Ethnic cleansing. Hell here is another one:
He later became Prime Minister and tried to make peace and was murdered for his efforts. You do see the difference of the people I quote don't you? These are people who were Prime Ministers and government figures in Israel. You provide one guy, who while a terrible human being, was responsible for his own crimes, crimes which are not the fault of the Palestinians.
Can you give us one clear example of what you call ethnic cleansing, maybe something similar to the Balkans? Turkish cleansing of Kurds? Nazi annihilation of Jews? Chinese annihilation if Tibetans? Russian Pogroms? Syrian/Jordainian/Egyptiyan/Iranian/Iraqi/Saudi ethnic cleansing of anyone from Christians to Jews to Homosexuals...
Or Palestinian wholesale murdering of Israeli Civilians, Palestinian Christians Maybe?
Also the term Palestinian was adopted post 1967; hence the two peoples of Gaza and Judea and Samaria are actually Jordanian and Egyptian...
Oh and by the way who sought the destruction of Israel from 1948 onwards and caused all these wars, it sure wasn’t Israel...0 -
Gobán Saor wrote: »Well, actually some are. Wes said "Isarel didn't deserve a better press than Zimbabwe." I just pointed out a few areas where it did. I'm glad you seem to agree
If Israel is a democracy, then it should be held to higher standard than Zimbabwe and therefore would receive more criticism.Gobán Saor wrote: »Fair enough I do. I also accept that Israel is far from perfect and has many faults. However, the market for criticism of Israel is fairly crowded and in concentrating on its virtues I am merely attempting to provide some counterweight to the avalanche of Anti-Israeli commentary on this board and elsewhere.
Fair enough.Gobán Saor wrote: »It would be if it were true. About 1.4 million "Israeli Arabs" or Palestinians live in Israel. They are full citizens of Israel with the right to vote and stand for office. They constitute about 10% of elected members of the Israeli parliament. While no Arab party has ever formed part of a Government coalition they have entered negotiations on the formation of coalition governments and have often supported Labour governments in the Knesset. (Individual Arab members have served as ministers in Labour governments.) The only discrimination is one in their favour - they are not (along with ultra religious jews) obliged to serve in the military. There is no apartheid - they participate fully in Israeli life and have held senior positions in the civil service and justice system - up to and including the Israeli Supreme Court, deputy speaker of the Knesset, cabinet minister and acting President of Israel. The same freedoms apply to Israeli Christians and Druze.
Again Israel, defines itself as a Jewish state, hardly a democracy as this excludes the Palestinians. Then there is the occupied territories, with Jewish only roads etc. Israel is an apartheid state.
Oh and Palestinians in Israel are discriminated against, you leave that bit out. Here are some examples:
Battling against Israeli 'apartheid'
Israel/OT: Knesset's approval of discriminatory law unacceptable
SECOND CLASS Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools
Israel's apartheid
Plenty more examples as well.Gobán Saor wrote: »Well, not quite single-handedly. Remember that the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian rule respectively from 1949 to 1967. Those states were happy to allow the Palestinian refugees to live in squalor and deny them a state of their own. It suited the cynical interests of Arab dictators to demonise Israel as a distraction from their own misrule. Many Arab states don't allow Palestinian refugees to work and keep them in refugee camps to this day.
Very true and the Arab nations are should be criticized for that, but the fact remains Israel drove them out in the first place.Gobán Saor wrote: »Incidentally those same Arab states expelled over 800,000 Jews from their own territories after 1948. Many were robbed not only of their land but also money and other possessions. More than 600,000 of these have been absorbed into Israel. Ethnic cleansing is not all one way traffic in the middle east.
Hardly excuses what was done to the Palestinians.Gobán Saor wrote: »The protection wall is an offensive concept, I'll concede that. However, it has been spectacularly successful in reducing the incidence of suicide bombers in Israel. Israel is entitled to take action to protect itself until a lasting peace agreement is put in place.
How exactly does stealing more land achieve that? The wall takes more land deep into the West Bank, you conveniently leave that bit out. If Israel wants to build a wall on the green line, then thats there business, but as its stands it isn't a protective measure, but a land grab.0 -
Can you give us one clear example of what you call ethnic cleansing, maybe something similar to the Balkans? Turkish cleansing of Kurds? Nazi annihilation of Jews? Chinese annihilation if Tibetans? Russian Pogroms? Syrian/Jordainian/Egyptiyan/Iranian/Iraqi/Saudi ethnic cleansing of anyone from Christians to Jews to Homosexuals...
I already have actually. Read the thread, read the quotes provided. Look at the links.
Heres another:
Clinging to dream of Palestine villageOr Palestinian wholesale murdering of Israeli Civilians, Palestinian Christians Maybe?
I never denied that Palestinians haven't engaged in violence and Hamas has attacked other Palestinians. Oh and the Palestinians in the above example are Christian.Also the term Palestinian was adopted post 1967; hence the two peoples of Gaza and Judea and Samaria are actually Jordanian and Egyptian...
Complete rubbish. The Palestinians were a people. Denying there existence is simply a absurdity. There was a Palestinian mandate that existed, before Israel. That Zionist rubbish was shown to be nonsense years ago, even the Israeli government don't try it anymore.
See Palestine: A Personal history By Karl Sabbagh. Thats one Palestinians story about his family who lived there for generations.Oh and by the way who sought the destruction of Israel from 1948 onwards and caused all these wars, it sure wasn’t Israel...
Israel engaged in aggressive wars with its neighbors, most notably the Suez crisis. What you say is factually incorrect simply put.0 -
Very well said and factual compared to the blatant misinformation and extreme anti-Israeli hatred pursued by some.
Care to back that up? Care to show who posts are factually incorrect? Or will you just throw out more baseless accusations.
Wouldn't denying the existence of a group of people who clearly exists (the Palestinians), not qualify as hatred?0 -
Care to back that up? Care to show who posts are factually incorrect? Or will you just throw out more baseless accusations.
Wouldn't denying the existence of a group of people who clearly exists (the Palestinians), not qualify as hatred?
No problem just read through this thread most of the information here against Israel is both wrong and misleading and one sided from a person who clearly hates Israel on the basis of its existence....
As for Zionists I would think they are fairly moderate compared to Hamas (terrorists, Fatah - terrorists, Islamic Jihad- terrorists) I could go on and on but clearly talking to someone like you are like talking to a wall as you are clearly hate filled and mostly like indoctrinated in this way since being a child.
That’s the difference with Israeli’s they don’t triumph at death in the streets or rejoice bloodshed like the so called oppressed Jordanians and Egyptians in Gaza and Judea and Samaria.0 -
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No problem just read through this thread most of the information here against Israel is both wrong and misleading and one sided from a person who clearly hates Israel on the basis of its existence....
What information is false? Prove it.
What hatred? Prove it.As for Zionists I would think they are fairly moderate compared to Hamas (terrorists, Fatah - terrorists, Islamic Jihad- terrorists) I could go on and on but clearly talking to someone like you are like talking to a wall as you are clearly hate filled and mostly like indoctrinated in this way since being a child.
Did I excuse any action of Hamas? Oh wait I didn't. Utter nonsense.
Oh and provide a single shred of my indoctrination. Oh wait, you can't, there is none, since its a complete falsehood.That’s the difference with Israeli’s they don’t triumph at death in the streets or rejoice bloodshed like the so called oppressed Jordanians and Egyptians in Gaza and Judea and Samaria.
What Jordanians and Egyptians in Gaza and the West Bank? There are none. That statement is factually incorrect, there Palestinians. Also, the whole population didn't dance in the streets.
You once again throw baseless accusations and haven't backed up a single one of them. Your nonsense knows no bounds, pure and simple.
More nonsensical baseless accusations, and wild claims of indoctrination. You argument, doesn't have a leg to stand on.0
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