Stereo Micing Guitar Amps

Seziertisch

I have a guitar part that I want to record using a stereo set up with two combo amps. I will be using a chorus pedal with a stereo output on it (similar to the Boss CE-1/Roland Jazz Chorus) for the recording.

What would be the best way to capture this stereo effect. I have limited access to microphones, a few quite respectable condensers (AKG 414, Blue Baby Bottle and a SE Electronics Z3300a), as well as an SM-57/58.

For the recording I would have access to a fairly nice sounding room (bright, airy, wooden floors etc.), not a studio room but still with a fairly nice natural reverberation.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding mic/amp positioning for this. I already have done a mono recording or this using a 57 on a single amp and it sounds quite good, but I would like to capture the stereo effect of the two amps but not so much to use as a stereo track necessarily (for very wide pans at mixdown). Would something like a using one of the condensers (set to a figure 8) with the amps positioned at either side work?

TelePaul

I'm curious as to why you wouldn't double track. Otherwise, a 57 on the grille of one, an LDC a few feet back from the other.

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

I have a guitar part that I want to record using a stereo set up with two combo amps. I will be using a chorus pedal with a stereo output on it (similar to the Boss CE-1/Roland Jazz Chorus) for the recording.

What would be the best way to capture this stereo effect. I have limited access to microphones, a few quite respectable condensers (AKG 414, Blue Baby Bottle and a SE Electronics Z3300a), as well as an SM-57/58.

For the recording I would have access to a fairly nice sounding room (bright, airy, wooden floors etc.), not a studio room but still with a fairly nice natural reverberation.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding mic/amp positioning for this. I already have done a mono recording or this using a 57 on a single amp and it sounds quite good, but I would like to capture the stereo effect of the two amps but not so much to use as a stereo track necessarily (for very wide pans at mixdown). Would something like a using one of the condensers (set to a figure 8) with the amps positioned at either side work?

Taking it's 2 of the same amps...

Do you have 2 of any mics? You might find if you record with 2 different mics that on panning left and right the L and R signals won't sit in the mix the same way as the tonal balance may not be the same.

Depending on how 'dense' the track is you may find the most 'stereoest' signal will be on close micing. That is the standard 57 on the cone.

As you're running the chorus pedal, and depending on your FX mix, the Chourus signals will be out of phase (good out of phase!) so while one amp will be 'up' the other will be 'down'. This is a different effect than Telepaul's doubletracking suggestion.

Depending on how ambient you'd like your recording you can then move your mics back away from the amps into the room .

Keep in mind the 3 to 1 rule .. i.e the distance between the stereo mics from your amp should be at least 3 time the distance between your mic and your amp. This will keep your mics in phase even if the signal they're recording isn't!!

While recording and adjusting mics hit your mono button often, this will keep you informed how things might (or might not!) collapse in the mix when being listened to in mono.

Lastly your question 'Would something like a using one of the condensers (set to a figure 8) with the amps positioned at either side work?'.... NO!! that won't be stereo.

Best of Luck!

Seziertisch

Thanks for the feedback, all. Yeah, Paul got it spot on, it is not the case that I am trying to just do a stereo recording but rather trying to capture the phase shift of the chorus effect playing through the two amps.

In terms of panning this particular element is going to occupy a very specific place in the mix so I can't see myself wanting to pan a stereo recording of it particularly wide. This is why I also asked about single mic methods to capture this phenomenon.

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about micing up a similar effect in the case of a Roland Jazz Chorus which essentially offers the same thing except the two amps are contained in one with each feeding its own speaker in the JC 2 x 12 cab?

frobisher

I think it's okay to record with two different mics. But I'm an anarchist.

After bearing in mind Paul's advice on mic positioning to avoid phase issues cutting body on your signal, the simplest answer to your question is "whatever sounds good." Listen to the amps and find the point or driver you like best. A good trick to get an idea of how the different cones are behaving is to get in front of the amp with the attached guitar lead in your hand, hit it with your thumb to create a buzz and see in what cones are responding in what way and start from there.

Not sure about your figure 8 idea. Doesn't strike me as a good one at all but I've never done it.

frobisher

Seziertisch wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, all. Yeah, Paul got it spot on, it is not the case that I am trying to just do a stereo recording but rather trying to capture the phase shift of the chorus effect playing through the two amps.

In terms of panning this particular element is going to occupy a very specific place in the mix so I can't see myself wanting to pan a stereo recording of it particularly wide. This is why I also asked about single mic methods to capture this phenomenon.

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about micing up a similar effect in the case of a Roland Jazz Chorus which essentially offers the same thing except the two amps are contained in one with each feeding its own speaker in the JC 2 x 12 cab?

Maybe I'm mis-understanding this, but if you're willing to record the stereo chorus output of two amps onto a single mic then wouldn't it be easier and more direct to take a mono output from the pedal into one amp? Mono shouldn't be half stereo.

ogy

Maybe I'm mis-understanding this, but if you're willing to record the stereo chorus output of two amps onto a single mic then wouldn't it be easier and more direct to take a mono output from the pedal into one amp? Mono shouldn't be half stereo.

The two amps are gonna be outputting two different signals that are gonna interfere with each other after they leave the speakers to create the chorus effect. So one mic equidistant from both amps would record the sound of the interference chorus effect right? we can here phase interference with one ear. The sound of the chorus effect being created between two sound waves will be different from the sound of the chorus effect being created in the electronics, presumably its preferable for what Seziertisch wants to record.

So i reckon you could record this with one mic no probs. I'd experiment with a condenser in different positions. Every spot in the room will have a different effect so i'd try and find a few nice spots, mark them with masking tape, and do a few takes at each spot, to keep your options open later.

Seziertisch

Anyway, I checked a bit more into the stereo outputs on the chorus. I have the choice between either one direct dry audio and one delayed modulated signal, and two delayed modulated signals.

With the latter, when summed together, listening through my audio interface, the delay/modulation is cancelled out i.e with a stereo signal coming in it is just dry audio, but when I mute one of the two inputs the remaining one has the effect on it. So I'm guessing there is a 180 degree phase shift on the delayed/modulated element which causes it to cancel itself out when summed together in stereo.

The effect of the second one going through two amps is what I am trying to capture, and considering what happened with my audio interface experiment I would say that recording with one mic would be the way to go.

Any further suggestions as to mic pattern/amp arrangement would be appreciated, or is just a bit of good old fashioned experimentation the way to go. I was thinking maybe angling the amps together if not putting them directly across from one another would be a good starting point?

ogy

So in summar you want to record an identical signal coming out of two amps but one will have the phase flipped.

The first caveat would be that every gain stage in an amp flips the phase, and depending on how many gain stages in the circuitry of the amp the phase may be flipped or not as it leaves the amp. manufacturers generally don't bother rectifying the phase on the way out, so theres a chance that the two amps might be automatically out of phase with each other, so your two out of phase modulated signals will actually be in phase thus spoiling the effect, or reducing it to multi-amping at least.

Next thing i'd say is that i don't think the amps should be partially or totally pointing at each other. It would just add more phasing issues that theres no need for. I'd put the amps side by side. Experiment with the distance between the amps to see where you like the effect best.

Next try walking around the room with one finger in your ear (!). good way of hearing what a mic hears. If the signals from the amps are out of phase there should be spots where they interfere very destructively and almost cancel each other out. At other points in the room the sound should be quite strong. Find a few places you like, and as i said before mark them off.

I think mono is the way to for several reasons
- two mics is just adding another place for phase to get messed up.
- You've said you want to position the sound in one place in the mix, so theres no need for a stereo recording
- the sound will be preserved if your mix is summed to mono

pattern wise i'd say stick to cardioid or omni, the 414 wouldnt be a bad place to start!

Seziertisch

What do you suggest to remedy the situation should the amps be out of phase with one another already? Or is it just one of those "too bad" situations?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=81938&s=articles

Looking at the bit in this about in-the-middle miking. Presuming that my two amps are already in phase with one another shouldn't the chorus pedal effect I have put them out of phase with one another and thus achieve something similar to wiring the speakers in the two cabs out of phase? Maybe I am missing something in saying this.

ogy

What do you suggest to remedy the situation should the amps be out of phase with one another already? Or is it just one of those "too bad" situations?

i guess in theory, if your sure the amps are out of phase with each other, take one output from the chorus pedal, use some kind of line splitter, and send the same signal to both amps, this should be the equivalent of sending two out of phase signals to 2 in phase amps. God knows if thatd work out in practise though:)

Other than thought yeh, i haven't a clue:)

Seziertisch

ogy wrote: »

i guess in theory, if your sure the amps are out of phase with each other, take one output from the chorus pedal, use some kind of line splitter, and send the same signal to both amps, this should be the equivalent of sending two out of phase signals to 2 in phase amps. God knows if thatd work out in practise though:)

When the track becomes a hit, I'll give an interview to Sound on Sound detailing the lengths I went to to get "that" sound.

... well if you thought that the way we achieved the chorus sound was innovative let me tell you about the bass sound. We spent days trying to nail the perfect sound but there was just a slight frequency drop out which we couldn't figure. Turned out the bassist was in the room with his amp at the time of recording and his presence was causing a notch. We tried setting him up in a different room to his amp but that didn't work either, as it turns out this notch was what was also giving the sound its magic. He eventually ended up playing standing bollock naked in front of his amp with it cranked. After days of experimentation he then nailed the part first take.

ogy

so all said and done, you were happy with his low end?:)

Seziertisch

It's not something he likes to talk about, before eventually compromising and having him just play naked we experimented with contact mics ...

PaulBrewer

frobisher wrote: »

I think it's okay to record with two different mics. But I'm an anarchist.

.

It is ok! but you may get the different 'tone' each side which on a stereo recording may not be desirable!

Anarchist you say? Would that explain the tuning??:)

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

Anyway, I checked a bit more into the stereo outputs on the chorus. I have the choice between either one direct dry audio and one delayed modulated signal, and two delayed modulated signals.

With the latter, when summed together, listening through my audio interface, the delay/modulation is cancelled out i.e with a stereo signal coming in it is just dry audio, but when I mute one of the two inputs the remaining one has the effect on it. So I'm guessing there is a 180 degree phase shift on the delayed/modulated element which causes it to cancel itself out when summed together in stereo.

The effect of the second one going through two amps is what I am trying to capture, and considering what happened with my audio interface experiment I would say that recording with one mic would be the way to go.

Any further suggestions as to mic pattern/amp arrangement would be appreciated, or is just a bit of good old fashioned experimentation the way to go. I was thinking maybe angling the amps together if not putting them directly across from one another would be a good starting point?

It all depends if you do want stereo or not- 1 mic equals mono no matter which way one slices it!

trackmixstudio

The only way to get a proper stereo guitar track is to record the part twice and pan left right. The other option is to pan the track left then send to a bus panned right. on the bus put a short (30-50ms) delay followed by a pitch shifter (pitched down a TINY amount). this will give you a good stereo guitar sound. This was used a lot on 80s rock records (van halen etc) with an eventide ultra harmoniser usually doing the pitch shifting.

ogy

1 mic equals mono no matter which way one slices it!

aside from the misleading thread title i don't think the question was actually how to record a guitar in stereo, more, how to record the sound of a stereo effect being played into two amps.

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

aside from the misleading thread title i don't think the question was actually how to record a guitar in stereo, more, how to record the sound of a stereo effect being played into two amps.

Yes