Examiner Editorial

BryanL

THE ruling at Tuam District Court that overturns a Garda decision not to grant licences to two young men who wished to buy semiautomatic handguns underlines the urgent need to reform gun ownership legislation.


The Garda objections were overruled because the two men already held shotgun licences and the judge contended that “a gun was a gun”.

Such an analysis suggests that our judiciary need to familiarise themselves with the lethal capabilities of semiautomatic handguns. Any suggestion that a 9mm pistol, capable of firing 17 high-velocity rounds without pause, is in the same category as a shotgun is dangerously wide of the mark.





Such rationale would support an application for a licence for a Kalashnikov or Uzi automatic assault weapon, a consequence no one could accept.

The Tuam weapons were designed for military or police use and have no place in the normal lives of private citizens or target shooting.

Worryingly, the court was told that 2,000 9mm handguns are already held by private citizens, many more in other calibres may also be in circulation.

The vast majority of these weapons are in responsible hands and will never be used illegally by their owners but that is not the issue. By their very presence in our communities we run the risk of these lethal weapons falling into the hands of criminals who have shown no compunction about using them.

Hundreds of thousands of Irish people own guns for traditional purposes. They behave responsibly and their privileges should not be curtailed.

However, legislation that defines more precisely the kind of weapons acceptable in our society is badly needed.

Unless it is forthcoming we run the risk of indirectly arming criminals, the awful possibility of a Dunblane-type tragedy and the unnecessary curtailment of access to sporting guns.

bunny shooter

That's the kind of irresponsible knee-jerk tabloid journalism that gives shooting a bad name :mad:

Bananaman

Can someone post an email address to which we may vent our distaste at such badly researched remarks ?

B'Man

It wasn't me!

Bananaman wrote: »

Can someone post an email address to which we may vent our distaste at such badly researched remarks ?

B'Man

Seconded. Someone needs a major earful over such reactionary rubbish.

TheSmallFella

editor@examiner.ie Is the address for Editorial Queries

fishdog

Email sent

Vegeta

I know this is going to seem lazy but I am flat out in work and will be travelling this evening

Does anyone have a pre written e-mail with information they could send me to save time so I can send on a response. I am looking for facts n figures rather than having to go searching for them myself to compose an e-mail.

Disgusting article, typical "think of the children" bullsh1t we expect from the media. Its quite sad when someone lives up to such a sterotypical sterotype.

fishdog

Vegeta, I sent you a PM. Hope it helps!:)

Grizzly 45

Email sent. Methinks,it is time for another email,letter and fax blitz to the Examiner offices again.
C'mon lads and lasses we did ourselves proud this time last year with the grassroots campain and another daft Examiner editorial on firearms.Looks like they need reminding again..:eek::)

chem

Email sent;)

dimebag249

So basically, don't read the Examiner, 'cos it's tabloid garbage. Angry :mad: e-mail sent.

Vegeta

fishdog wrote: »

Vegeta, I sent you a PM. Hope it helps!:)

Thank you

Seamus357

Can someone send me one of the draft emails. I was furious this morning when I read the rubbish that was written in this paper.

It wasn't me!

To the Editor of the Examiner,

Having read your editorial wherein you cover the case of two individuals who took their cases to the District Court folloing the refusal of firearm certificates for pistols, I felt compelled to respond.

'The Garda objections were overruled because the two men already held shotgun licences and the judge contended that “a gun was a gun”.'

Following the recent High Court judgement in O'Leary v. Maher, where the judge stated that it was the firearms cert was granted in respect of the character of the applicant and whether they can demonstrate a use for the firearm, and that the decision of the Superintendent was to be based on that alone, and not the characteristics of the firearm concerned, the District Court judge was bound to issue the judgement that in the eyes of the law, where a demonstrable use for the firearm exists (whether it be game shooting, target shooting or vermin control) and where the applicant has been deemed suitable to be issued a firearms cert in respect of another firearm (in this case, a shotgun), that a Superintendent should issue a firearms cert for any firearm for which that applicant can demonstrate a use. As such, the following quote:

'Such an analysis suggests that our judiciary need to familiarise themselves with the lethal capabilities of semiautomatic handguns. Any suggestion that a 9mm pistol, capable of firing 17 high-velocity rounds without pause, is in the same category as a shotgun is dangerously wide of the mark.'

demonstrates only ignorance both of the law and of the subject matter. A semi-automatic pistol is merely a mechanism and has no inherently dangerous attributes over the working mechanism of a revolver or a bolt action rifle or any other mechanism of chambering and firing a cartridge. Such catchphrases are used to promote an irrational fear and demonstrate only a tabloid attitude to journalism that I feel should be cause for shame and should be beneath any paper worth the ink it's printed with. The propaganda spread in respect of the 9mm parabellum round is also unfounded and irrational. It is far from high-velocity, with many of its variants being subsonic, and in ballisttic terms it is far less powerful than many other commercially available pistol cartridges (to say nothing of rifle cartridges) which enjoy none of the same irrational fear. As far as the law is concerned, a firearms cert holder is distinguished by having been deemed suitable to use a firearm for a sporting purpose, and is not distinguished by the sport they pursue or by the type of firearm they are licensed to use for it. It is therefore your own reactionary and ill-informed assertions that are 'dangerously wide of the mark.'

'Such rationale would support an application for a licence for a Kalashnikov or Uzi automatic assault weapon, a consequence no one could accept.

The Tuam weapons were designed for military or police use and have no place in the normal lives of private citizens or target shooting.'

Your comments that the granting of firearms certificates for 9mm parabellum pistols should invite applications for automatic firearms such as those you mention illustrates your knee-jerk reporting and only promotes fear and ignorance. Where the practical sporting use for such firearms exists, there would be a case for their licensing. As of now however, no such sporting pursuit is in existence in the state and, as such, an application would be refused, on the grounds that it could not be for use in a sport that is not practised here. This leads onto the next fact, which you have ignored, which is that the firearms concerned in the court case on which your editorial focused did indeed have a sporting purpose in this state. In fact, practical pistol, which has hundreds of practitioners and is an extremely fast-growing sport in this country, stipulates in its rules a minimum calibre of 9mm parabellum; while many of its practitioners use other similar calibres, 9mm parabellum is often used as it is a cheaper calibre to train with. Your editorial again, then, runs far wide of the mark in suggesting that the calibre has no place in target shooting or civilian ownership.

'Worryingly, the court was told that 2,000 9mm handguns are already held by private citizens, many more in other calibres may also be in circulation.'

The use of terms such as 'worryingly' is poor journalism. It ignores facts and seeks to evoke particular emotions from its readers. In this case, clearly, you intend to engender fear for what you do not know. Pistols are used in many disciplines, and in many calibres, for entirely legitimate sporting purposes in this country. If you believe your own statement,

'Hundreds of thousands of Irish people own guns for traditional purposes. They behave responsibly and their privileges should not be curtailed.'

then you owe a duty of care not to engender feelings of irrational fear in your readership which could lead to the curtailment of rights of those who use legitimate firearms for legitimate sporting purposes.

'The vast majority of these weapons are in responsible hands and will never be used illegally by their owners but that is not the issue. By their very presence in our communities we run the risk of these lethal weapons falling into the hands of criminals who have shown no compunction about using them.'

Every single legally held firearm in the state is in hands that have been deemed by An Garda Siochana to be responsible. Their presence in our communities is a private matter for the holders of these firearms and to make it a public matter, as has been suggested, is ridiculous and can only encourage their attempted theft. It would be appreciated if the Examiner could publish statistics of legally held firearms and their use in criminal activities. If the paper would like to avoid needlessly creating an air of fear, this is a thoroughly reasonable request to back up their assertions.

If the paper cannot produce empirical evidence to suggest that these firearms are being used for criminal purposes, that they cause problems in Irish society, or that they are unsuitable for sporting purposes, then it would be appreciated if the paper would retract its statements and apologise to the community of shooters in Ireland who have been offended by the gross misinformation published in this editorial.

Yours sincerely,





Haven't sent this yet, just putting it here to quickly get any mistakes I've made corrected before I send it, or any suggestions for information I've omitted. Thanks for any feedback on it guys, it's going out in an hour or so.

foxshooter243

Great response IWM -now give them a broadside;)

Mac Tire

There was an article in another of the national papers today which was a pretty one sided read regarding these two cases...i cant find the paper here at work so il wait before mentioning any names....They might well need an influx of our responces also....:mad:

Bananaman

Good man - well put together.

a Comment or two......

Where the practical sporting use for such firearms exists, there would be a case for their licensing. As of now however, no such sporting pursuit is in existence in the state and, as such, an application would be refused, on the grounds that it could not be for use in a sport that is not practised here

Automatic firearms are currently prohibited in Ireland and in most European countries so there is deemed to be no demonstrable use for them.
Rather than argue for or against I would simply point this out as it debunks his statement that they can be licensed. They cannot.

You are correct that IPSC Practical Pistol requires a minimum of 9mm.
It is also be worth pointing out that in Precision Pistol, in which Ireland took most of the medals at our inaugural International recently in Fermoy, the requirement is also 9mm and above.

I would take offence with the editors use of the word "weapon". This infers a sense of menace to the firearms. In my view a weapon is a combination of an implement and intent. Sports shooters have no other intent but target shooting with their firearms, therefore they should NEVER, be classed as a weapon. Hunters use weapons, target shooters use sporting firearms.

In terms of his statement that:

By their very presence in our communities we run the risk of these lethal weapons falling into the hands of criminals

The Gardai and Army hold far more "weapons" than we, the shooting community hold sporting firearms. How do we run less of a risk of those falling into the wrong hands than we do the ones held, under very stringent security conditions, by us.

Smithers, release the hounds.

B'Man

It wasn't me!

E-mail has been sent now.

foxshooter243

It wasn't me! wrote: »

E-mail has been sent now.

Cry havoc ,let loose the dogs of war...:D

Dr_Teeth

Bananaman wrote: »

I would take offence with the editors use of the word "weapon". This infers a sense of menace to the firearms. In my view a weapon is a combination of an implement and intent. Sports shooters have no other intent but target shooting with their firearms, therefore they should NEVER, be classed as a weapon. Hunters use weapons, target shooters use sporting firearms.

Personally I wouldn't consider a Hunter's firearm as a "weapon" either - it's only licensed for use against game or vermin. You wouldn't class a fishing rod as a weapon would you?

Sparks

I'd take offence with it as well, if I hadn't had a slip of the tongue today and used the W word myself (though in my defence, I'd been listening to gardai and policemen for two days before it happened )

Cpt.Blackadder

BryanL wrote: »

The Tuam weapons were designed for military or police use and have no place in the normal lives of private citizens or target shooting.

Worryingly, the court was told that 2,000 9mm handguns are already held by private citizens, many more in other calibres may also be in circulation.

The vast majority of these weapons are in responsible hands and will never be used illegally by their owners but that is not the issue. By their very presence in our communities we run the risk of these lethal weapons falling into the hands of criminals who have shown no compunction about using them.

If that is true why did they want them for pistol target shooting competitions me thinks the editor lacks some clarity of thought.

Also I think that your average gangster would probably be able to get illegal guns. I recall a man in Limerick was prosecuted for possessing 5 AK47's 5 AR-15's and an RPG launcher. If gangs can get those in here illegally why bother with getting a pistol.

I also doubt his claim that they will be stolen by gangs. How many firearms are stolen each year and what proportion arethen used in crimes?, he should have provided some statistics instead of tabloid hysteria.

I don't shoot yet but I find it annoying that people who know nothing about firearms or shooting can give an 'expert' analysis on Irish fire arms law and what we can and cannot use in our respective disciplines.

Sparks

Sent:

Dear Sir,
Last year, shortly before my resignation from the role of Secretary of the National Target Shooting Association, we had a discussion following the printing of the faked letter mentioned in more detail below, and came to a satisfactory resolution on the matter. One part of that resolution was that you agreed that since there were groups who were ideologically opposed to firearms and who had no hesitation in distorting the facts of any particular case to advance that agenda, you would contact shooting associations before printing anti-firearm pieces in order that facts might be accurate and both sides represented.

I have to say that the editorial on the Tuam case printed on Friday May 9th (and by extension it's commentary on the O'Leary v Maher High Court case which provided the precedent for the Tuam case) did not meet either of those goals.

The ruling in those two cases is not only accepted as fair and just by the shooting associations, but also by the Department of Justice and the Gardai Siochana, all of whom have just today completed a two-day conference on the new Firearms Act amendments and the work of the Firearms Consultative Panel, the culmination of almost a year of close meetings and hard work between all these parties to seek a more balanced and efficient system for the licencing of firearms in this country. I should point out that this was a ground-breaking conference which marks a new era of cooperation between the firearms expertise of the shooting assocations and the legislative expertise of the Department of Justice and the operational experience of the Gardai.

While many are unfamiliar with pistols outside of their sensationalist portrayal in Hollywood, it has to be pointed out that a 9mm pistol is no more and no less dangerous than any other firearm. None of them are toys, all of them will harm you if abused, and none of them are treated as if that was not true. And because of this, all 230,000 licenced firearms in the state are licenced only to those people the Gardai deem not to be a risk to public safety (approximately 200,000 people at the moment).

Further, there are target shooting competitions, held regularly in this country and in others, which utilise these pistols, and pistols in many other calibres as well. Ireland in fact has taken home many medals from international competitions with these pistols and others like them.

Finally, to set your readers at ease, it is utterly wrong to suggest that automatic firearms of any kind will ever be legally owned here - they are prohibited under EU law. It is a matter that never even arises in Ireland.

Coverage like that printed today does not do the Examiner any favours in terms of its reputation for balanced, informed, down-to-earth viewpoints and I would ask that the other side of the argument be put forward, lest those who do not come into contact with firearms in their daily lives be given the erroneous impression that licenced firearms are a danger to them.

Yours in Sport,

bunny shooter

fishdog wrote: »

Vegeta, I sent you a PM. Hope it helps!:)

Can I have it too ?

fishdog

PM sent bunny! Although it may not be that good:)

Sparks

From the Irish Independent:

Two win appeal for a 'military' gun licence
By Tony Galvin and Don Lavery
Friday May 09 2008


TWO gun enthusiasts have been given permission to license and own semi-automatic handguns designed for military use, despite objections from gardai.

In the latest in a series of court challenges to garda superintendents around the country who refuse gun licences to sports shooters and hunters because of the type of gun involved, two young men were given permission to own handguns in Tuam District Court yesterday.

It is the latest victory for shooting enthusiasts in at least 50 court cases which gardai have lost and which have led to enthusiasts owning and being licensed for a greater variety of guns then ever before.

The two young men, Jonathan Concannon of Lyssadyra, Tuam, and Shane Fleming, of The Weirs, Tuam, were initially refused licences to hold the weapons by Tuam Supt Seamus Kane because, in his opinion, the weapons were unsuitable for sporting uses. They appealed this decision at Tuam District Court.

"A gun is a gun is a gun," Judge Derek McVeigh stated, before overturning the Superintendent's decision.

Supt Kane argued that the 9mm Beretta PX Storm semi-automatic pistol which Mr Concannon wanted to license was unsuitable for sporting uses.

"This weapon is designed to discharge as fast as possible with not a great deal of accuracy. It is designed to hit a person," he said. "This Beretta has serious stopping power. This is not a sporting weapon."

In the case of Mr Fleming's appeal, he said the Sig semi-automatic he was seeking a licence for was the same type of weapon used by the Garda Emergency Response Unit and was also unsuitable for sporting use.

Judge McVeigh said he was willing to grant the application because the character of the applicant was not in question.

Conditions were set that the gun must be locked in a safe when not in use and the house where it is kept must be alarmed.

The second applicant, Mr Fleming, told the court he was a sales representative and held three previous gun licences for rifle and shotgun over the past 10 years. The judge granted his appeal.

Sparks

Definitely better coverage from the Indo there. Not exactly friendly, but not anti either.

Mac Tire

cheched after work, it is in the Star, headlining ' Dedicated to Death' :mad:

Gunter Mauser

Dear Editor, the author of this article is joining up all the dots and coming up with the layman understand of what he /she thinks they know about firearms. How exactly they are stored, (not mentioned) classification, define a police/ military pistol, apart from some possible safety features changes or cosmetic features very little separates Police / Military pistols from that of the civilian version. IT can be argued that a shotgun is every bit as lethal as any pistol.
The type of pistols in question can hold up to 17 cartridges, one shotgun
cartridge hold hundreds of pellets that get propelled once the firearm is
discharged. Both firearms can and do kill. Pistols are very strictly controlled here in Ireland, civilian target range use is the only reason that can be given to have such a type of firearms licenced, with that Garda inspection insures firearms especially pistols are dismantled and lock in an approved safe.

The articles finally tries to scare the living daylights out of the public by suggesting we are one step away from full automatic AK47's, completely wrong, no automatic firearms are permitted in this country let alone Europe and only under special licence in the United states. In future can your journalists please contact one of the sporting organizations for proper technical data before you publish.

Sparks

Mac Tire wrote: »

cheched after work, it is in the Star, headlining ' Dedicated to Death' :mad:

Was this before or after the photos of the scantily-clad girl with the photoshopped breasts?

Mac Tire

the pictures of the sig and a px4 storm are a bit more eye catching!