Gardai driving under emergency conditions

peasant

What's the legal situation here?

I've come across a few near accidents over the last few months, where a garda car was driven at full whack through dense traffic (obviously on an emergency call), breaking red lights, barging into crossings or overtaking dangerously without any lights or sirens on.

I understand that emergency vehicles responding to an emergency have the right to break traffic rules ...but as far as I know they must have the lights and/or the sirens on in order to do that (and still drive with caution).

Am I misinformed?

Mena

I'm not sure what the rules/regulations are here in Ireland, however I've done numerous patrols with the flying squad back home and they regularly do not use sirens, so as not to alert the people whom they are after. It has had disastrous consequences though.

_feedback_

Maybe they were trying to be inconspicuous (sp??) to who they are following/approaching etc. therefore have no lights/sirens on.

Is a person under TPFT insurance, covered if they mash your car to pieces while breaking traffic laws? Or is there a special Garda insurance that will pay out for damage/injury?

Good Thread

Eoin

elviscostello wrote: »

Is a person under TPFT insurance, covered if they mash your car to pieces while breaking traffic laws? Or is there a special Garda insurance that will pay out for damage injury?

Why wouldn't anyone with TPFT be covered if they were smashed into? The Gardai could be self-insured through the government rather than a specific policy for them.

_feedback_

eoin_s wrote: »

Why wouldn't anyone with TPFT be covered if they were smashed into? The Gardai could be self-insured through the government rather than a specific policy for them.

I was under the impression that those under Third Party Fire & Theft were not covered for damage to their own vehicle/person? Or is that only if they are at fault?!

www.insurance-cars.co.uk/third-party.html wrote:

it is important to understand exactly what third party insurance represents. If you take out only third party insurance you are basically saying that you place no value on your car or your life. The third party insurance does not cover any damage to your car or yourself. It is solely there to protect other people and their property.

javaboy

That's if your insurance is paying out. Everyone has to be insured to pay for damage/injury to another party by their own actions.

So if someone else is responsible it doesn't matter what level of cover you have, they have to pay.

Eoin

What javaboy said.

That's a very poorly worded paragraph from that site.

_feedback_

javaboy wrote: »

That's if your insurance is paying out. Everyone has to be insured to pay for damage/injury to another party by their own actions.

So if someone else is responsible it doesn't matter what level of cover you have, they have to pay.

I'm a twat. I forgot about the whole who's responsible bit ! ! !

Presume there would be no question who is at fault in that case. Are motorists legally obliged to give way to them if they have no flashing lights? Or with lights for that matter?!

peasant

eoin_s wrote: »

Why wouldn't anyone with TPFT be covered if they were smashed into?

If for example the emergency vehicle that just crashed into you were only allowed to break traffic rules once the sirens and lights are on, and they were off when they crashed, then it would clearly be their fault and they should have to pay for your damage.

If however the lights and sirens weren't legally required to brake the traffic laws, then theoretically (theoretically!!) a garda could drive their car into yours and you not see a Cent as they could claim that they were driving under emergency conditions, even if they weren't and the accident was clearly their fault.

_feedback_

peasant wrote: »

If for example the emergency vehicle that just crashed into you were only allowed to break traffic rules once the sirens and lights are on, and they were off when they crashed, then it would clearly be their fault and they should have to pay for your damage.

If however the lights and sirens weren't legally required to brake the traffic laws, then theoretically (theoretically!!) a garda could drive their car into yours and you not see a Cent as they could claim that they were driving under emergency conditions, even if they weren't and the accident was clearly their fault.

That's kinda what I meant ^^

Could they make bits of a persons car on TPFT and claim that it wasn't their fault because they had sirens on .... ?

Eoin

peasant wrote: »

If for example the emergency vehicle that just crashed into you were only allowed to break traffic rules once the sirens and lights are on, and they were off when they crashed, then it would clearly be their fault and they should have to pay for your damage.

If however the lights and sirens weren't legally required to brake the traffic laws, then theoretically (theoretically!!) a garda could drive their car into yours and you not see a Cent as they could claim that they were driving under emergency conditions, even if they weren't and the accident was clearly their fault.

I don't know if they are allowed break red-lights, with or without the flashing-lights and sirens on though. Perhaps Gardai have different rules to the Fire Service, but a friend in the DFS says that technically they are only allowed ignore double yellows lines when parking, and one or two other traffic laws.

It's just that they are unlikely to be prosecuted, unless they cause an accident.

peasant

In Germany it's regulated like this:

An emergency vehicle (police, ambulance, fire engine) without the signals on is just a regular participant in traffic and has to obey the rules.

Once the signals are on, these vehicles have the right to break all the rules, but still no right to crash ...in other words they must proceed with caution.

Normal motorists must give way to emergency vehicles with signals on and even can break some traffic rules themselves while doing so (e.g. drive on the hard shoulder, drive onto the footpath, drive into a crossing to make room, basically anything that gets them out of the way without endangering others). Not giving way / making room for an emergency vehicle with signals displayed is a penalty point offence.

This still isn't perfectly clear of course, as to whose fault it is if and when a crash does happen, but usually the emergeny vehicle gets apportioned some percentage of the blame more or less automatically.

MercMad

peasant wrote: »

In Germany it's regulated like this:

An emergency vehicle (police, ambulance, fire engine) without the signals on is just a regular participant in traffic and has to obey the rules.

Once the signals are on, these vehicles have the right to break all the rules, but still no right to crash ...in other words they must proceed with caution.

Normal motorists must give way to emergency vehicles with signals on and even can break some traffic rules themselves while doing so (e.g. drive on the hard shoulder, drive onto the footpath, drive into a crossing to make room, basically anything that gets them out of the way without endangering others). Not giving way / making room for an emergency vehicle with signals displayed is a penalty point offence.

This still isn't perfectly clear of course, as to whose fault it is if and when a crash does happen, but usually the emergeny vehicle gets apportioned some percentage of the blame more or less automatically.

..........yep I'd say that reply is pretty accurate.

I always understood that they still have to obey the law and the rules of the road, obviously they wouldn't be prosecuted for breaking the law etc....but they can still get done for dangerous driving if a citizen wanted to take an action.

Just yesterday on the N1 into Swords I spotted flashing light in my mirrors, about 200 yds behind. I was in the centre lane, with a car about 40 yards ahead of me in the right hand lane and little else around. There were two Garda cars and I assumed driver 1 would go into the right hand lane where the other car would move into my lane. But no instead he goes into the hard shoulder whilst driver 2 did as I expected. the result was the first Garda car and the car ahead of me nearly collided as they both headed for the same spot ahead of me. The car ahead of me swerved to avoid the undertaking Garda car and then got in the way of the second one !

It was very nearly an accident and IMO the actions of the first car were very dangerous !

arybvtcw0eolkf

peasant wrote: »

What's the legal situation here?

I've come across a few near accidents over the last few months, where a garda car was driven at full whack through dense traffic (obviously on an emergency call), breaking red lights, barging into crossings or overtaking dangerously without any lights or sirens on.

I understand that emergency vehicles responding to an emergency have the right to break traffic rules ...but as far as I know they must have the lights and/or the sirens on in order to do that (and still drive with caution).

Am I misinformed?

They don't have any rights to break the law, its that simple really.

And further more if they're in an accident and they're found at fault the driver's civilian licence can be penalised, although the state insures the driver.

Steve

peasant wrote: »

I understand that emergency vehicles responding to an emergency have the right to break traffic rules ...but as far as I know they must have the lights and/or the sirens on in order to do that (and still drive with caution).

They are exempted under sec 27 / 2004 RTA from most traffic & parking regulations.
They are not exempt from e.g. dangerous driving or drunk driving.

There is no condition attached saying they *must* use lights or sirens.

27.—Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2004 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49 and 50 (inserted by sections 10 and 11, respectively, of the Act of 1994), 51A and 52 (inserted by sections 49 and 50, respectively, of the Act of 1968) and 53 of the Principal Act and sections 12, 13, 14 and 15 of the Act of 1994, do not apply to a driver of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of the Garda Síochána of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member or a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

The "Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations" in various amendments restrict the use of blue lights to emergency vehicles.


There are references like this in the notes but not in any of the actual legislation:

In practice, such officers will adhere to guidelines to be issued by the Minister for the Environment as to the circumstances in which such flashing blue lamps may be used.

It may be a matter of internal Garda regulations / policy as to when and where they *should* be used.

It would also seem silly to legislate against a vehicle being able to respond to an emergency because their blue light was broken.


hope that helps:)

Paulzx

Emergency service vehicles are exempt from most traffic byelaws e.g double yellows, red lights, parking on footpaths etc. However, and its a big however the list of exemptions is followed by the line "when it is safe to do so". So basically if you go through a red light and cause a crash it could be deemed not to have been safe to do so.

This leaves you in a situation whereby you won't be charged with breaking the red light but could be charged with dangerous driving. This depends on what the investigation by the gardai concludes.

You are driving on your own license so caution is advised at all times

There is no obligation for any other vehicle on the road to give way to an emergency vehicle on lights and sirens