Atheists are nice people ...

pH

ATHEISTS ARE NICE PEOPLE WHO WILL ROAST IN HELL, SAYS CARDINAL

ATHEISTS and agnostics are decent people whose tormented souls will burn for all eternity in the scorching fires of hell, Britain's biggest catholic said last night.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor said non-believers should be respected, right up to the point of death when they will finally come face to face with Satan and his blood-soaked pitchfork.

He told a conference in London: "Those without faith should not be shunned or abused. Jesus and Beelzebub are already cooking something up for them, don't you worry about that."

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Oh all right here's the real story ...

'Respect atheists', says cardinal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7390941.stm

He said saying that "supposedly faithless societies" ruled only by reason were like those created by Hitler and Stalin, ripe for "terror and oppression".

Mena

Here we go with Hitler and Stalin again...

Galvasean

Okay i taught this was quite funny:

"We must not allow Britain to become devoid of religious faith, otherwise how will I afford new hats?"

Overheal

i like him

CerebralCortex

I don't believe in god therefore I'm looking for nazi's take control :pac:

Dades

Mena wrote: »

Here we go with Hitler and Stalin again...

Too bloody right!

Regimes completely based on reason, indeed!

Galvasean

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I don't believe in god therefore I'm looking for nazi's take control :pac:

God > Hitler

Hitler only had a mustache. God had the full nine yards.

Zillah

pH wrote: »

Britain's biggest catholic

Haha.

jill_valentine

Man, if they're breaking out the Giant Catholics, we're sunk.

Overheal

Bring me the Giant Atheists and UFO sightings STAT.

toiletduck

Atheists are nice people ...

No we're not!

pH

I don't believe it

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor takes a patronising line on atheists - and reveals he doesn't even understand the nature of secularism


Where does on start with a speech as specious and self-serving as the one given by Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor in Westminster Cathedral yesterday?

The BBC headed its report of the event: "'Respect atheists', says Cardinal". Can you imagine anything so utterly patronising than the leader of some rapidly diminishing religious sect (in the UK at least - with a 40% decline in attendance in a generation) telling a huge proportion of the population that he's prepared to tolerate them? And why is he prepared to tolerate them? Well, because even if they say they don't believe in God, God is still with them and, really, atheism is just a "distorted kind of Christianity".

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/terry_sanderson/2008/05/i_dont_believe_it_1.html

eoin5

Its patronising but I think it might do some good for those guys and gals who see atheists with two horns and a tail. If they really want to open up though they should let guest speakers in and have debates in mass, thatll get people in the door.

Now as long as there are absolutely no follow up questions: "To believe in God is not unreasonable."

Dave!

Troll tbh... There's not a chance atheists are nice people

Dudess

I always get puzzled by the notion that nazi Germany was a "godless society". It very much wasn't. There were plenty of religious nuts.

Sangre

"Later, he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme why he thought it was dangerous to be governed by reason alone."

Yes, that would be silly.

Galvasean

Sangre wrote: »

"Later, he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme why he thought it was dangerous to be governed by reason alone."

Yes, that would be silly.

Imagine a society where a random law is temporarily disbanded each week.
"This weeks forgotten law is... murder."
Bliss.

Malari

toiletduck wrote: »

No we're not!

Atheists are people! Some nice, some not so nice. I think I've mellowed since my evangelical, obtuse early-atheistic teenage years!

Sangre

Sangre wrote: »

"Later, he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme why he thought it was dangerous to be governed by reason alone."

Yes, that would be silly.

For a bit of balance they had Richard Dawkins on later (maybe the next day, I can't remember). He used his 4 minutes well.

ChocolateSauce

Well that is exactly what his position warrents him to say, no more, no less. If he didn't say it he wouldn't be doing enough to save our souls, and for the time being, it seems he is content to let god punish for gods rules, instead of man punishing for gods rules.

Hear hear Mr. Bishop!

pH

Dudess wrote: »

I always get puzzled by the notion that nazi Germany was a "godless society". It very much wasn't. There were plenty of religious nuts.

You mean like these guys?





Hitler's Christianity

Dudess

In particular, this is what I had in mind:

Catholic Croatia's Atrocities:

In 1941 Croat Fascists declared an independent Croatia. Italy and Hungary (also a fascist state) joined forces with Hitler for a share of Yugoslavia. Hitler had issued his plan for a partitioned Yugoslavia, granting "Aryan" status to an independent Croatia under the Catholic Ante Pavelic. This resulted in a campaign of terror and extermination conducted by the Ustashe of Croatia against two million Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Communists between 1941 and 1945 (Note that the Croats were Roman Catholics, the Serbs were Orthodox Christians). According to Cornwell, "Pavelic's onslaught against the Orthodox Serbs remains one of the most appalling civilian massacres known to history."

From the outset, Pope Pius XII and the Vatican knew of the racist and anti-Semitic statements made by the Croats even as the Pope met with Pavelic and bestowed his papal blessing. Not only did the Croatian Catholic clergy know the details of the massacre of the Serbs and the virtual elimination of the Jews and Gypsies but many of the priests took a leading role! Monks and priests worked as executioners in hastily set up concentration camps where they massacred Serbs. These killings had gotten so brutal that even the Nazis protested against them. By the most reliable reckoning, the Catholic fascists massacred 487,000 Orthodox Serbs and 27,000 Gypsies between 1941 and 1945 in the independent State of Croatia. In addition, approximately 30,000 of the 45,000 Jews died in the slaughter.

At no time did the Vatican make an attempt to halt the forced conversions, appropriation of Orthodox property, or the mass killings. Croat priests had not only sympathized with the fascist massacres but took part in them. According to Cornwell, "Priests, invariably Franciscans, took a leading part in the massacres. Many went around routinely armed and performed their murderous acts with zeal. A father Bozidar Bralow, known for the machine gun that was his constant companion, was accused of performing a dance around the bodies of 180 massacred Serbs at Alipasin-Most." Individual Franciscans killed, set fire to homes, sacked villages, and laid waste the Bosnian countryside at the head of Ustashe bands. In September of 1941, an Italian reporter wrote of a Franciscan he had witnessed south of Banja Luka urging on a band of Ustashe with his crucifix." In the Foreign Ministry archive in Rome there sits a photographic record of atrocities: of women with breasts cut off, gouged eyes, genitals mutilated; and the instruments of butchery: knives, axes, meat hooks. [Cornwell, pp. 253-254] Not only priests, but nuns also sympathized to the movement. Nuns marched in military parades behind soldiers with their arms raised in the fascist salute.

From the very beginning the Catholic clergy worked in collaboration with the Ustashe. Archbishop Stepinac got appointed spiritual leader of the Ustashe by the Vatican in 1942. Stepinac, with ten of his clergy held a place in the Ustashe parliament. Priests served as police chiefs and officers of in the personal bodyguards of Pavelic. There occurred frequent BBC broadcasts on Croatia of which a February 16, 1942 typical report stated: "The worst atrocities are being committed in the environs of the archbishop of Zagreb [Stepinac]. The blood of brother is flowing in streams. The Orthodox are being forcibly converted to Catholicism and we do not hear the archbishop's voice preaching revolt. Instead it is reported that he is taking part in Nazi and Fascist parades." [Cornwell, p.256] The French cardinal Eugene Tisserant, a Slavonic expert, told a Croat representative on March 6, 1942, "that it is the Franciscans themselves, as for example Father Simic of Knin, who have taken part in attacks against the Orthodox populations so as to destroy the Orthodox Church in banja Luka...." [Cornwell, p. 259]

Even though petitions against the Catholics and their massacres got sent to Pius XII, not once did Pacelli, the "infallible" Pope, ever show anything but benevolence toward the leaders of the Pavelic regime. His silence on the matter matched his silence about his knowledge of Auschwitz.

To this day, there occurs ethnic cleansing, outbreaks of war and intense bitter feelings between Croats and Serbs. The religious organizations in the area must bear the major responsibility for these intolerances, atrocities and wars.

Oh, and of course, this

robindch

Dudess wrote: »

I always get puzzled by the notion that nazi Germany was a "godless society". It very much wasn't. There were plenty of religious nuts.

Quite apart from the Riech's appropriation of religious modes of hero worship -- Speer's Cathedral of Light being but one example -- there's the often-omitted fact that in 1933, the catholic priest Ludwig Kaas, leader of the catholic Center Party, purchased state protection of catholic schools and other catholic cultural items, with his party's support for Hitler in his Enabling Act (see here), which granted him the dictatorial powers he required. Later the same year, Kaas presided over the development and signing of the Vatican-Reich Concordat, which I think remains in force today.

History could have been quite different, but for the explicit, public and legal support of catholics for Hitler.

Bottle_of_Smoke

What's with Dawkins, the cardinal's trying to be nice & he had to get on his high horse again.

ChocolateSauce

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What's with Dawkins, the cardinal's trying to be nice & he had to get on his high horse again.

Because the Cardinal is wrong. He is wrong about religion, and therefore everything he says which follows that assumption, even if it nice sounding, is rooted in the untrue.

The Inquisition was trying to be nice and save people souls. Just becasue in modern times the methods are different doesn't mean the substance has changed.

Dudess

robindch wrote: »

Quite apart from the Riech's appropriation of religious modes of hero worship -- Speer's Cathedral of Light being but one example -- there's the often-omitted fact that in 1933, the catholic priest Ludwig Kaas, leader of the catholic Center Party, purchased state protection of catholic schools and other catholic cultural items, with his party's support for Hitler in his Enabling Act (see here), which granted him the dictatorial powers he required. Later the same year, Kaas presided over the development and signing of the Vatican-Reich Concordat, which I think remains in force today.

History could have been quite different, but for the explicit, public and legal support of catholics for Hitler.

Although when they were younger, Hitler and Mussolini rejected religion and took an anti-clerical stance - they felt religion served as a kind of "competition" to a fascist dictatorship. Later on though, they realised they could use it to their advantage.

Lockstep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_salvation

Talliesin

pH wrote: »

ATHEISTS ARE NICE PEOPLE WHO WILL ROAST IN HELL, SAYS CARDINAL

Fair enough. I know I always get irked if someone says I'm nice, so I can see how this is offensive (the roasting in hell bit I couldn't give two figs about).

pH wrote: »

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor takes a patronising line on atheists - and reveals he doesn't even understand the nature of secularism

Well, there's plenty of Atheists that don't understand secularism.

Deleted User wrote: »

For a bit of balance they had Richard Dawkins on later (maybe the next day, I can't remember). He used his 4 minutes well.

I can see the logic, but does every idiot Christian have to be countered by just an idiot Atheist, or do we all have to provide idiots too?

robindch wrote: »

the catholic priest Ludwig Kaas, leader of the catholic Center Party, purchased state protection of catholic schools and other catholic cultural items, with his party's support for Hitler in his Enabling Act

Clemens August Graf von Galen was a Cardinal, which if I recall correctly means he out-ranked Ludwig Kaas. Die Weiße Rose were all Catholics.

In occupied territory the Maquis were set up by Lutheran ministers and the Danish clergy went on strike in protest against the Nazis (and then when the Nazis had them replaced the laity stopped attending mass).

Christians can claim some of the greatest examples of resistance to Naziism. Of course the Francs-Tireurs Partisans in France, KOPA/BOPA in Denmark, etc. were largely Atheist. My point isn't to argue for the Christians winning this dick-comparison contest that people of different religious views have been having for the last 60 years, but just to show that it can't be won. Isn't this the sort of thing that inspired Godwin's Law?

theozster wrote: »

Because the Cardinal is wrong. He is wrong about religion, and therefore everything he says which follows that assumption, even if it nice sounding, is rooted in the untrue.

So clearly we need to get the only person writing on religious matters that still pays much attention to The Golden Bough to point the way! (It makes me giggle because Atheists used to accuse Pagans of this all the time).

ChocolateSauce

Talliesin wrote: »

So clearly we need to get the only person writing on religious matters that still pays much attention to The Golden Bough to point the way! (It makes me giggle because Atheists used to accuse Pagans of this all the time).

Yes, because he's one of the few people who will publicly and unapologetically stand up and speak what he thinks. He (like all atheists) believes he is right, but he (unlike all atheists) isn't afraid to assert that he is right without *gasp* offending people!

Because nothing is worse that hurting a grown ups feelings by telling them their invisible friend isn't real.

robindch

Dudess wrote: »

Although when they were younger, Hitler and Mussolini rejected religion and took an anti-clerical stance - they felt religion served as a kind of "competition" to a fascist dictatorship. Later on though, they realised they could use it to their advantage.

Yes, I think that's about right. It's always seemed plausible to me that social conservatives who support, or go along with, an exclusivist and authoritarian regime don't really seem to worry much about the structure of the dictatorship or its background. Hence, a dictator can maximize his support by destroying any competition for the support of the exclusivist-supporting population, before acquiring such people for himself with some neato meme transfer.

Dudess

Talliesin wrote: »

Clemens August Graf von Galen was a Cardinal, which if I recall correctly means he out-ranked Ludwig Kaas. Die Weiße Rose were all Catholics.

In occupied territory the Maquis were set up by Lutheran ministers and the Danish clergy went on strike in protest against the Nazis (and then when the Nazis had them replaced the laity stopped attending mass).

Christians can claim some of the greatest examples of resistance to Naziism. Of course the Francs-Tireurs Partisans in France, KOPA/BOPA in Denmark, etc. were largely Atheist. My point isn't to argue for the Christians winning this dick-comparison contest that people of different religious views have been having for the last 60 years, but just to show that it can't be won. Isn't this the sort of thing that inspired Godwin's Law?

The issue was brought up here due to the assertion by some that nazi society was a "godless" society.