Space efficient thermal dry-lining

janmc

Hello all,

Does anyone have a suggestion for what is a good dry-lining product that doesn't take too much of the valuable floor area away! This is to reduce heat loss through a 60 year old end terrace with uninsulated cavity wall construction. (The building is brick so external insulation is out of the question)

I'm guessing the absolute minimum is a 25mm cavity with 25mm battens and 25mm board?

I saw Xtratherm warm board mentioned in an earlier thread - this seems to be a product you use with plasterboard, not on it's own, but I imagine there are all-in-one products also. There's also Rockliner - but this seems quite chunky at 42.5mm.

I'm not trying to achieve the same U-Value as a new build, but something that would make a significant improvement.
Any suggestions/tips are very welcome,
Thanks in advance!

What about cavity wall insulation? is it possible..

janmc

I've heard that cavity wall injections are a bit hit and miss in terms of coverage, and I'm also concerned about moisture and the lack of ventilation in the cavity, but I'll take all opinions on board...

sinnerboy

you need to use a CPB - composite plasterboard

that is plasterboard bonded to polyurethane insulation

37 is the min thickness - 12 plasterboard 25 insulation

but use thicker if you can

92 ( 12 + 80 ) would bring you up to regs

use foam seal to base and top of boards before skimming over

ensure that baords have full un interupted band aof adhesive to all 4 sides of every board - to assist air tightness

same around window openings

where you cut out for electrics - seal between insulation and back boxes

Google the major insulation providers websites for even more expicit detail;

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

websites for even more expicit detail;

PORN :eek:

janmc

Thanks for the replies.

Someone also suggested Ecoquilt - http://www.smartrinsulations.com/ecoquilt.htm - any comments?

sinnerboy

dont touch that - look here for reason why

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/multi-foil-insulation_july2005.pdf

sinnerboy

muffler wrote: »

PORN :eek:

i take my pleasures where i find them ....:D

pullandbang

sinnerboy wrote: »

dont touch that - look here for reason why

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/multi-foil-insulation_july2005.pdf

I'm afraid things have moved on since 2005 in relation to multi foils.

http://www.actis-isolation.com/fichenews.php?p=3&l=3&codenews=40&rub=5&vert=2&typenews=2

sinnerboy

pullandbang wrote: »

I'm afraid things have moved on since 2005 in relation to multi foils.

http://www.actis-isolation.com/fichenews.php?p=3&l=3&codenews=40&rub=5&vert=2&typenews=2

So why is the advice note still present on the UK DOE site ?

sydthebeat

pullandbang wrote: »

I'm afraid things have moved on since 2005 in relation to multi foils.

http://www.actis-isolation.com/fichenews.php?p=3&l=3&codenews=40&rub=5&vert=2&typenews=2

doesnt matter.....

for most applications the use of the material needs to be verifiable and certified...

multi-foils are not yet verifiable or certified.

That is not to say they cant be used, they have been used in many situations, but if you want your construction certified or calculated then dont they dont suit

pullandbang

sinnerboy wrote: »

So why is the advice note still present on the UK DOE site ?

I'd imagine you'd need to ask them why they don't update their site.

pullandbang

sydthebeat wrote: »

multi-foils are not yet verifiable or certified.

That is not to say they cant be used, they have been used in many situations, but if you want your construction certified or calculated then dont they dont suit

I'm afraid you're wrong there. There are multi foils out there with BBA certs and it won't be long until there are a few with IAB certs.

sydthebeat

pullandbang wrote: »

I'm afraid you're wrong there. There are multi foils out there with BBA certs and it won't be long until there are a few with IAB certs.

ah, but the bba cert is for use a a vapour control layer, and NOT as an alternative to insulation... look it up.... the BBA cert states that the multifoil must be used in conjunction with other insulations to meet regs....

so as i said, not certified, not verified...

If i was doing a BER on a dwelling that had multifoil insulation, without proper certification as an insulator, i would have to disregard it in order to carry out my duties correctly.

pullandbang

sydthebeat wrote: »

the BBA cert states that the multifoil must be used in conjunction with other insulations to meet regs....

so as i said, not certified, not verified... .

Bit of a contradiction here...... the BBA CERT states.....if I'm not mistaken CERT is short for Certificate.

NOT CERTIFIED means not having a certificate.......

sydthebeat

pullandbang wrote: »

Bit of a contradiction here...... the BBA CERT states.....if I'm not mistaken CERT is short for Certificate.

NOT CERTIFIED means not having a certificate.......

i answered that it my post... if you want to be pedantic about it, the product is NOT CERTIFIED as an insulator.

If you check the title of the thread you will see the OP was refering to a query regarding 'thermal' dryling... not vapour checks....

is there any reason you are defending this product?
How about giving me a thermal conductivity factor for a typical make-up...?? please....

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

is there any reason you are defending this product?
How about giving me a thermal conductivity factor for a typical make-up...?? please....

quite transparent to me . OP - don't use multi foils . They are widely dis credited . BER assessors or certifying architects will tend to discount them

sinnerboy

pullandbang wrote: »

I'd imagine you'd need to ask them why they don't update their site.

No . I think I'll await proper certification before i take multi foils seriously

pullandbang

sydthebeat wrote: »

is there any reason you are defending this product?

Not particularly apart from the fact that I've used it in my attic and I think it's great.
Just don't like to see sweeping statements which are not true put on a public forum as if they are fact. The fact is that some multi foils have certification that is recognized (BBA) and others have certs that wouldn't be as acceptable as a BBA cert.

sinnerboy

pullandbang wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

is there any reason you are defending this product?

Not particularly apart from the fact that I've used it in my attic and I think it's great.
Just don't like to see sweeping statements which are not true put on a public forum as if they are fact. The fact is that some multi foils have certification that is recognized (BBA) and others have certs that wouldn't be as acceptable as a BBA cert.

Good for you -

cut and paste from the link you posted

The DCLG will soon circulate a letter confirming to BCBs that they are entitled to use their discretion to accept or reject products tested using methods other than the hot-box if they wish to do so.

So a large company is in legal battle with the UK authorities . They (UK authority) maintain the report on their 2005 finding on their site .

So , with discretion , the OP is advised to take heed

Don't suppose you can post link to BBA certification(s) ?

sydthebeat

pullandbang wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

is there any reason you are defending this product?

Not particularly apart from the fact that I've used it in my attic and I think it's great.
Just don't like to see sweeping statements which are not true put on a public forum as if they are fact. The fact is that some multi foils have certification that is recognized (BBA) and others have certs that wouldn't be as acceptable as a BBA cert.

If you used a multi foil that has a bba cert for a vapour barrier then great, you have a certified vapour barrier... however if youve used it as an insulation product, then its not acceptable from a certification or calculation point of view.... it actually is that simple.
there have been no sweeping 'untrue' statements by me here...

heres the bba cert you are refering to:
http://www.webdynamics.co.uk/pdfs/tlx/4379i2_web.pdf

refer to the thermal performace and technicial investigation sections.

This multifoil used above the rafters will only give a u value of 0.53. Is this what you have???

If used both above and below rafter it still only give a u vaule of 0.29. Neither meet current minimum regulations of 0.2 on pitch and 0.16 flat...

prentice

janmc wrote: »

Hello all,

Does anyone have a suggestion for what is a good dry-lining product that doesn't take too much of the valuable floor area away! This is to reduce heat loss through a 60 year old end terrace with uninsulated cavity wall construction. (The building is brick so external insulation is out of the question)

I'm guessing the absolute minimum is a 25mm cavity with 25mm battens and 25mm board?

I saw Xtratherm warm board mentioned in an earlier thread - this seems to be a product you use with plasterboard, not on it's own, but I imagine there are all-in-one products also. There's also Rockliner - but this seems quite chunky at 42.5mm.

I'm not trying to achieve the same U-Value as a new build, but something that would make a significant improvement.
Any suggestions/tips are very welcome,
Thanks in advance!

I got this done to my house, its the business. They call it heatboard in the trade. dont know the real name for it. I think kingspan do it.

temperature in bedroom went up by about 5 degrees immediately...

sinnerboy

Cut and paste from BBA cert

thermal resistance of the insulation including air layers and bridging (for the timber percentages shown in Figure 1)
— 1.69 m2KW–1

Cut and paste from report on UK DOE site

The graph shows that there is much better agreement when an R-value of 1.71 m²K/W is used than there is when an R-value of 5 m²K/W is used.

Both the BBA cert and the DOE report are consistent with respect to the thermal performance of these insulations .

They don't do "what is says on the tin"

Perhaps this is why the DOE report stands , legal actions not withstanding

janmc

I think I stirred up a hornet's nest! Thanks for the detailed responses all

muffler

janmc wrote: »

I think I stirred up a hornet's nest!

Nah. Its par for the course

pullandbang

sydthebeat wrote: »

If you used a multi foil that has a bba cert for a vapour barrier then great, you have a certified vapour barrier...
heres the bba cert you are refering to:http://www.webdynamics.co.uk/pdfs/tlx/4379i2_web.pdf

That's the cert I was thinking of, the one you said didn't exist.

It's 20 pages long so I didn't read them all. However the first line reads as follows;
"This Certificate relates to Thinsulex Silver, a reflective INSULATION material for use in pitched roofs." (My capitalization)

No mention of "vapour barrier" just INSULATION:)

If I've used a vapour barrier in my attic as you imply, then so be it.....it's some vapour barrier!

Since we installed it we've been able to switch off the heating an hour earlier at night. We haven't used the heating in the mornings at all. We have the heating down to it's lowest setting.We've managed on one fill of oil for the year instead of the usual one and a half fills.:):)

...all the way to the bank.

sydthebeat

pullandbang wrote: »

No mention of "vapour barrier" just INSULATION:)

perhaps you should actually read the thing..........

muffler

pullandbang wrote: »

Since we installed it we've been able to switch off the heating an hour earlier at night. We haven't used the heating in the mornings at all. We have the heating down to it's lowest setting.We've managed on one fill of oil for the year instead of the usual one and a half fills.:):)

...all the way to the bank.

You would have had more in the bank had you just used a couple of inches of fiberglass and an auld bit of plastic.

pullandbang

muffler wrote: »

You would have had more in the bank had you just used a couple of inches of fiberglass and an auld bit of plastic.

You're right, I would.
However my attic would be rendered useless for storage. I'd have to cover my joists with another layer of fibreglass and it still wouldn't get rid of the gale force winds that used to blow through the attic.

I'd then have to build a bigger shed to store all my junk and my once a year bits like the Xmas tree and decorations, sleeping bags, tents etc etc.

But if people don't want to use their attic space, then fibreglass is your only man!

pullandbang

sydthebeat wrote: »

perhaps you should actually read the thing..........

I'm not that interested in what it says.

I just corrected your original assertion that multifoils were not certified and you were kind enough to provide the link to the cert that didn't exist.

I rest my case:)

sinnerboy

Again to OP , looking for dry lining solution - best option is kingspan/xtratherm /quinntherm composite boards .

they are the most space efficient

sydthebeat

pullandbang wrote: »

I'm not that interested in what it says.

I just corrected your original assertion that multifoils were not certified and you were kind enough to provide the link to the cert that didn't exist.

I rest my case:)

muffler

pullandbang wrote: »

I'm not that interested in what it says.

Perhaps you should be interested in it rather than maintaining a dogged attitude about an issue that you appear unwilling or unable to comprehend.

If there are comments to be made in this forum which directly contradict other peoples assertions then I want to see them backed up with hard facts otherwise they will be removed.

pullandbang

Apologies to the OP for this going off on a tangent.

muffler wrote: »

If there are comments to be made in this forum which directly contradict other peoples assertions then I want to see them backed up with hard facts otherwise they will be removed.

sydthebeat made the assertion that multifoils were not certified.
I pointed out that there was a cert doing the rounds - a BBA cert at that, not some dodgy cert from God knows where.

syd duly posted the link to the cert that supposedly didn't exist.
He backed up my argument with the hard facts and I am eternally grateful.

sydthebeat

Every material on earth has an insulative property.... glass, steel, timber, aluminim foil etc. My mobile phone is solid yet im not going to use it to drive nails into wood, even though i probably could... similarly i would not use multifoils to insulate my roof, even though i probably could.. .for all the reason mentioned above.

the BBA cert i linked to PROVES that the product is NOT CERTIFIED as a stand alone insulator. In case you missed this i will state it again.....

the BBA cert i linked to PROVES that the product is NOT CERTIFIED as a stand alone insulator.



Read the thing if you want to have an informed argument.

pullandbang

sydthebeat wrote: »

the BBA cert i linked to PROVES that the product is NOT CERTIFIED as a stand alone insulator. In case you missed this i will state it again.....

the BBA cert i linked to PROVES that the product is NOT CERTIFIED as a stand alone insulator.

You've now tempered your original assertion (below) with the phrase "as a stand alone insulator".
"doesnt matter.....
multi-foils are not yet verifiable or certified."

If you had said this in the first place we wouldn't have had this discussion. The statement that multi foils had no certification was incorrect.
A statement that they needed to be used in conjunction with something else would have been correct.

The defence now definitely rests for good on this topic and again apologies to the OP:)

muffler

Im not taking sides in this dispute or difference of opinion but with his second post on the issue and which was made 2 days ago sydthebeat said

ah, but the bba cert is for use a a vapour control layer, and NOT as an alternative to insulation... look it up.... the BBA cert states that the multifoil must be used in conjunction with other insulations to meet regs....

and that was what he also said in the post above and to which you have now agreed with. So whats the problem then?

Im amazed - simply amazed

bauderline

Is that a black horse I see..... no wait..... its white..... definitley white !

syd's post from two days previous spells it out and leaves little room for ambiguity, certified as a vapour barrier, not certified as an insulator. Hence it terms of insulation its not certified, period. As you should use a certified material then one would be advised to use another material to insulate ones home.


pb you'd do well in the soccer forum.... cough... cough....

B.

Mellor

Multi-foils make me go for the barge pole

echristie

I'm guessing the absolute minimum is a 25mm cavity with 25mm battens and 25mm board?

[/QUOTE]

We drylined (i.e. insulated) old freezing house after massive amount of research. Saw <professional> do one room, then did rest ourselves. Rooms 17x17ft, 9ft ceilings. Used 35mm xtratherm boards in some and 100mm in others. Used plasterboard adhesive (yukky grey stuff in bags, but easy to use). xtratherm website is good. No battens, no fiddling about. Got guys in to tape and joint. Result: even with uninsulated floor we can actually heat a room using an open fire and it will stay fairly warm. Not that that is how we actually heat the house. Our conclusion: far too much research to try to demystify the subject. Work out how much space you are prepared to lose from interior and just go for it. Good luck or hope it has already worked out! eileen