United Ireland Poll

stakey

menoscemo wrote: »

Secondly it is very sad to see the apathy of people in the no-camp with their purely economic based reasons for voting No. It is really sad to think that we cannot even count on the support of the southern irish people who have it as a part of their constitution that the 6 counties are part of their territory and intend on getting it back.

Erm, nope. The GFA dropped the territorial claim on Northern Ireland replacing articles 2 and 3 with more conciliatory entries that recognised that a United Ireland may only ever take place in accordance with the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland.

The changes to these articles still outline a United Ireland of sorts but accept that it may not be a nation as many a republican would wish for.

As for economic reasons. I would argue that ecomomically it doesn't make sense for the people of the north to integrate their economy with that of the south. A certain level of living is now available in the North due primarily from money poured into the economy by the British state as well as the general strenght of the sterling.

Northern Ireland also has a huge amount of investment in transport, health, power etc which could not be maintained by the southern government which currently struggles to run it's own 26 counties.

One has to think of the logical repercussions of a move to unite Ireland beyond the romantic idealism of a few republicans. Real life scenarios come into play with real lives.

GhettoSoldier

Dudess wrote: »

Oh do grow up. When it comes to the Northern Ireland question, I have always been a nationalist - maybe even a republican (without the following: support for the murder, hatred of moderate unionists - Gordon Wilson was an angel of a man, anti English horsesh1t) but crap like that posted by you and other posters here (again, not dlofnep) does absolutely no favours for the cause.
No doubt you'll accuse me of having neck to refer to myself as a nationalist/republican.

Obviously a joke.

I have no problem with English people at all, just the government

Dudess

GhettoSoldier wrote: »

Ban me because I pointed out, you condone loyalist death squads while bashing republicans, I agree.

Infracted for trolling.

Rb

me wrote:

So, if I'm not Pro-IRA and their actions, I'm pro British.
If I'm not pro-Unity, I'm pro British.

Does that not sum up the attitudes we've seen from a lot of pro-unity people here?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

GhettoSoldier wrote: »

When you can't win a debate, resort to reporting me. Not a bad idea.

The amount of West Europeans on here is shocking.

Once again, fixed.

menoscemo

stakey wrote: »

Erm, nope. The GFA dropped the territorial claim on Northern Ireland replacing articles 2 and 3 with more conciliatory entries that recognised that a United Ireland may only ever take place in accordance with the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland.

The changes to these articles still outline a United Ireland of sorts but accept that it may not be a nation as many a republican would wish for.

As for economic reasons. I would argue that ecomomically it doesn't make sense for the people of the north to integrate their economy with that of the south. A certain level of living is now available in the North due primarily from money poured into the economy by the British state as well as the general strenght of the sterling.

Northern Ireland also has a huge amount of investment in transport, health, power etc which could not be maintained by the southern government which currently struggles to run it's own 26 counties.

One has to think of the logical repercussions of a move to unite Ireland beyond the romantic idealism of a few republicans. Real life scenarios come into play with real lives.

Yes I know, but it was part of your constitiution for most of your life and still recognises the north as part of the country. After all it is the constitituion of Ireland, not the republic of Ireland.
Also the basis of my post which you have ignored points out that we will only gain a United Ireland by a vote in the North. I wholeheartedly recognise that and support it. We are in the process of creating a situation favourable to a majority yes vote at the minute. IMO this will not take longer than 10 years. Huge strides have been made already, who could have imagined the DUp and Sinn Fein working so well together just a few Years ago.

So the question arises, If the north have a majority in favour of a United Ireland what will happen? I believe there actually is no need for a referendum In the Republic because the constitution clrearly states that there will be a united Ireland if the north votes for it. Therefore this poll would be Irrelevant TBH.

Economically The 6 counties was the strongest in Ireland pre 1921, that is one of the main reasons that the British government wanted to hold onto it. The economy was destroyed by the troubles, because up until that point and indeed well into the 1980's/90's the northern economy far outstripped the southern one. I have no doubt that it will thrive over the next few years during peace and by the time a yes vote came about it would be in good shape. Under a united Ireland the economy will thrive even further, therefore i think the economic arguments are irrelevant.

menoscemo

rb_ie wrote: »

Ok just ban this f*cking troll already.

Dudess, ban him, this is a f*cking joke I've been banned from AH for far less.

IMo you should be banned for the following comment:

"Wow, I'm shocked you went through the trouble of typing all that out. Just goes to show how passionate some of you IRA hugging, terrorism supporting, immigrant bashing people really are."
That was said directly to a K'bereger.

Terry

menoscemo wrote: »

IMo you should be banned for the following comment:

"Wow, I'm shocked you went through the trouble of typing all that out. Just goes to show how passionate some of you IRA hugging, terrorism supporting, immigrant bashing people really are."
That was said directly to a K'bereger.

If you have a problem with a post, then report it.
Otherwise just leave it alone.
Thanks.

Rb

menoscemo wrote: »

IMo you should be banned for the following comment:

"Wow, I'm shocked you went through the trouble of typing all that out. Just goes to show how passionate some of you IRA hugging, terrorism supporting, immigrant bashing people really are."
That was said directly to a K'bereger.

It's not personally abusive, it wasn't directed at him personally, it was directed at the group he sides with.

Rb

Terry wrote: »

Thanks.

Thanks.

O'Coonassa

GhettoSoldier wrote: »

Its terrible what them republicans done,

You mean what the Republicans did at Drogheda and Wexford I assume? Cromwell has a bad name, that is true, but really the people he left behind, the Dissenters, hated by Papists and Anglicans alike were the very people who invented Irish Nationalism and Irish Republicanism. Don't ever forget that, you shouldn't be so hard on them calling them 'prods' as if they were the same thing as Anglicans. Other than those fine fellas everybody else was Loyalist to the core so long as the right King or Queen was on the throne. It was all ordained by God, both the Popes and the Kings agreed on that much. The Gaelic Jacobites were the worst of the whole shower and wanted absolute monarchy, utterly feudal, utterly brutal, utterly sh*the. Thank God for the Enlightenment. Thank God for the planted Dissenters.

GhettoSoldier wrote: »

invaded the protestants land and the penal laws were awful.

After King Billy defeated the Jacobites at the Boyne the Pope at the Vatican sung a Te Deum. This was because he'd funded and supported William against James. A few years later the Pope changed his mind and in came the penal laws. The only people who really suffered as a result of them at first were the Popes political envoys and rich Gaels (our leige lords) and rich Dissenters. All along for we the common man, you may as well face it, life was sh*t, we were utter slaves whoever was in charge and slaving was the only job option available.

GhettoSoldier wrote: »

They wouldn't even give protestants a job, and those poor protestants killed on bloody sunday. Wait that was the other way around. Who are you trying to fool? Lets not forget the loyalist terrorists funded and armed by the British government, who killed catholics for no other reason other than they were catholics. They have openly admitted this. do you condone this?

Not in the slightest, I vote yes to a UI but if we're ever going to have one then you really need to understand a whole lot better where the 'other tradition' are actually coming from and not be repeating the version of history that Father O'Bollix has handed you complete with the sectarian gibbering about protestant hereticks.

dlofnep

I fully object to Irish Unity classified as "romanticism".

Control over the North has been a complete injustice from the get-go. We were brought up through school learning the history of this Island and the vast number of injustices that occured on this Island due to British rule. We have seen over the years after our Island was divided, how the Irish were oppressed in the British created statelet. I reserve the right to take onboard the absolute horrid treatment in the North to the Irish people, and Britains attempt to normalise rule there.

I am not ok with the various interventions of Britain to try and control the population in the North. During Bloody Sunday, Britain showed it's true colours and gunned down innocent kids as young as 17. A number of people were shot from behind in the back. A man would have to have no soul to shoot a 17 year old kid in the back, who's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Other's were heard begging the British not to shoot, but still without remorse - they were gunned down like dogs. And what did Britain do to those who committed these acts of terrorism, and that is exactly what they were - acts of terrorism? Absolutely nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.

Economic and political relations today with Britain are good, but only because they have normalised their rule in the North. If there was an uproar again in the North, we'd see their true colours again. British control of the North doesn't make sense from a British standpoint at all. Economically it's draining them. Only 21% of the British public actually support it, against 45% who support Irish Unity. Perhaps they require it from a military standpoint. Who knows? Whatever reason it is, many the lifes of an innocent Irish man has been lost over it.

Britain of today is no different. Thousands of people are dieing in Iraq for britain and america's economic conquest of the middle east. They are not the saints people would have you believe in this thread. I don't hate Britain, I don't hate the people of Britain. Some of my dearest friends are English. But I have a very big problem with British rule in the North and I have a very big problem with larger states on this planet bullying smaller countries around, oppressing them for long periods of time and then pretending that nothing ever happened.

Irish Unity is right and just. It goes beyond the economic impact it may have. Far too much as been placed on it. A large econonmic and integration strategy will have to be devised before it's ever possible - but at some point in time, it will have to happen. I'm what I'd like to describe as a new-age progressive Republican. I don't support the old ways of an armed campaign. I believe the pen is mightier than the sword. I don't like to be classified as an immigrant basher or Nazi or any other terms people can coin up to try and blacken the Republican cause. For those bickering on here, throwing jibes back and forth - grow up. Everyone thinks differently, and so long as they outline maturely why they feel - who are we to question them?

menoscemo

Terry wrote: »

If you have a problem with a post, then report it.
Otherwise just leave it alone.
Thanks.

I did about 3 hours ago.

Rb

menoscemo wrote: »

I did about 3 hours ago.

And the fact that nothing was done about it, despite the mods being active in this thread and on the forum, would suggest to you...?

To most, it would suggest that the mods ruled it not personally abusive or in breach of the charter.

P.s Keep up the good work O'Coonassa, your posts are a good read (regardless of my feelings on the matter).

MooseJam

MooseJam wrote: »

I vote yes, Brits out

Brits out? there are 800,000 Brits living in the North, what you gonna do with them?

Or do you refer to the average british soldier who didnt want to be sent to the North to be killed by EITHER SIDE of gangsters for nothing

dlofnep wrote: »

Some interesting numbers for people.

26%-32% - The amount of Brits who supported the North remaining in the UK.
41%-45% - The amount of Brits who supported Irish Unity.
Sources: British Social Attitudes Survey (2004), ICM (2001).

I think the Brits and Irish govts should have had joint Irish Army and British army patrols in the North when the troubles began. Should never have let backward shopping center bombers take control in so many areas.

The Brits are gonna be our neighbours for the next few million years until plate techtonics either push us together or move us apart - its a long term thing. Time to grow up and get on with life and forget history and crap like that. Deal with present day issues of inequality or bigotry. Lifes too short

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the Brits and Irish govts should have had joint Irish Army and British army patrols in the North when the troubles began. Should never have let backward shopping center bombers take control in so many areas.

The same British Army that uses children as cannon fodder? Let's be a little more subjective here. We've all seen what the British Army does when their is an Irish movement in their controlled state. I wouldn't rely on that British army you have so much faith in.

Deleted User wrote: »

Deal with present day issues of inequality or bigotry.

That's exactly what the people of Derry were trying to deal with. Inequality and bigotry and were gunned down for it.

thelordofcheese

GhettoSoldier wrote: »

Says beside his name, location = Cardiff, Wales

Irish man living there now, good stuff suits you

The closer to West Britain the better I suppose

Cheers, i needed a laugh and you've delivered.

If it were possible to thank people for posts on AH, i would.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

The same British Army that uses children as cannon fodder? Let's be a little more subjective here. We've all seen what the British Army does when their is an Irish movement in their controlled state. I wouldn't rely on that British army you have so much faith in.



That's exactly what the people of Derry were trying to deal with. Inequality and bigotry and were gunned down for it.

36 years ago time to move on
Have to add:
Im ashamed to say the Irish 26 counties turned its back on the people of the north when it all kicked off. Gutless gits.
The time to make a move was then if ever.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

. I wouldn't rely on that British army you have so much faith in.
.

Your reading too much into my post so much that your seeing things I didnt post. I never said I had ANY faith in the BA.
But back in the start they were welcomed by the Catholics then Op Motorman happened and ended all that.

mikemac

rb_ie wrote: »

P.s Keep up the good work O'Coonassa, your posts are a good read

+1
You know your history O'Coonassa and your posts are highly interesting......at least to a history nerd like me

lol at your last post.
Oliver Cromwell, one the most famous Republicans ever in Ireland, oh the irony!

menoscemo

Dlofnep, while I totally agree with everything you say, the fact is we have to move on, because continually going on about past british atrocities is not going to convince our Unionist bretheren in the north to agree to a united Ireland.

As I have said that is the only real way it will happen, and it is not far away. I am from Dungannon, Co Tyrone, my most famous townsperson is Proabably Darren Clarke, a fine Irishman from the unionist tradition. Some of his heroics at the last Ryder cup and subsequent patriotic celebrations, i.e. celebrating with Harrington and McGinley uner the tricolor (lol at the fact he was always under the Orange bit, but it does after all represent men of his tradition) show an increasing desire and willingnes if Northern unionist to identify themselves as Irish. We must make them welcome. I can point out other examples of otherfine men in the Irish sporting field such as Eddie Irvine and Wayne McCullough.

IMO we must focus on these positives and use these kinds of examples to encourage the northern unionists into a united Ireland which can and will be right for them too.

mise_me_fein

To be honest, I Irish government couldn´t really do much. Churchill offered to unite Ireland if DeV he joined the allies. There was a chance, what would you have done????

Pretty tough. Britain had us trapped economically up until after we joined the EU.

Fcuk all this IRA bashing. The IRA in the troubles and the IRA in the 1920s were the same deal. We look on the men of the 20s in a good light but Adams and Collins are the same deal. Bad situations were they´ve got some sort of peace in the end. Sure, there are a lot of bad men in the IRA, or were, and the same goes for the BA and not to mention the Shankill butchers.

All this high and almightly stuff in this thread. Look at the poll. If you are democratic you would go along with it´s outcome.

You know Bloody Friday, the IRA gave good warning but the British gov decided not to act and let people die. Good propaganda to move in and reclaim Free Derry.

Who were the real murderers in something like this?

Maybe there´s no point in mentioning random atrocities from the past. They came on both sides.

Rossibaby

people arguing against irish unity seem to side with the thinking that it was all the IRA's fault,the IRA did it all? no mention of the loyalist gangs who colluded with the RUC to set up innocent nationalists to their death? sure what would that matter,these are the same loyalist gangs that deal drugs across northern ireland.how could the irish people trust the soldiers and police after bloody sunday for example.they were blatantly sectarian.this is not acceptable from a police force.it is incidents like bloody sunday which sent young nationalists to the IRA in droves.

smply put imo, the one constant between the violence over the centuries has been the british presence here.it is the deciding factor and history shows that aslong as britain has a presence here republicanism will exist,sometimes weak and sometimes strongly and although i know your stance dlofnep, armed resistance will be almost inevitable in years to come if the current peace process peters out.history has shown this.

i see why people want nothing to do with the north, all they see is an odd news clip and report in the paper about a shooting or bombing. people feel no attachment ot the north because their life is going perfectly fine for them at home in the south. but if it was your brother,sister,mother father involved i think ye would think differently that the northeners should be ''cut off''. imagine if it was your young son,shot in the back on bloody sunday, murdered in cold blood by a force that should never have been there.

casting all republicans as gangsters is just plain wrong.there have been bad people involved in both sides,but look at any other organisation in ireland and you'll have bad apples.can anyone honestly tell me that there are no gardai involved in the drug trade in ireland??you cannot tarnish everyone with a stereo type, it is britain who brought the trouble to the north and started all this not the irish people. a socialist country free of oppression can never materialise while an oppressive and imperialist force remains.

O'Coonassa

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Not in the slightest, I vote yes to a UI but if we're ever going to have one then you really need to understand a whole lot better where the 'other tradition' are actually coming from and not be repeating the version of history that Father O'Bollix has handed you complete with the sectarian gibbering about protestant heretics.

well put!

Caoimhín

Is there a history forum on boards? If not may i suggest OCoonassa as chairman.

menoscemo

rb_ie wrote: »

It's not personally abusive, it wasn't directed at him personally, it was directed at the group he sides with.

And that's why it offends me and many others, because we are in the group he sides with, yet we are none of the things you accused us of being.
Anyway I will be making no more posts on this issue because I want to make only positive ones.

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

Your reading too much into my post so much that your seeing things I didnt post. I never said I had ANY faith in the BA.

Sorry about that

menoscemo - I agree and never at any point did I exclude unionists into an United Ireland of equals. See my previous posts for further info.

Rossibaby

Rossibaby wrote: »

it is incidents like bloody sunday which sent young nationalists to the IRA in droves.

EXACTLY!!
This is where the Irish 26 counties FAILED and let the people of the North down.
Frankly it disgusts me. All they had to do was cross the border, make an international incident out of it and call in the UN and there would be a peace keeping force.

So many smarter ways of "fighting" for a united Ireland. Shooting a random BA private who is following orders is retarded. Its the politicians who give the orders who need their arms twisted.

The IRA bashing comes from bombing shopping centers and all that crap and they deserve to be bashed, they brought disgrace on themselves. NO MATTER WHAT THE OTHER SIDE DID you cant justify it.

menoscemo

dlofnep wrote: »

Sorry about that

menoscemo - I agree and never at any point did I exclude unionists into an United Ireland of equals. See my previous posts for further info.

I Know man i just think we need to get of the past as arguments becuase it is not going down too well/ not convincing too many no sayers. We have many more arguments.

menoscemo

Deleted User wrote: »

EXACTLY!!
This is where the Irish 26 counties FAILED and let the people of the North down.
Frankly it disgusts me. All they had to do was cross the border, make an international incident out of it and call in the UN and there would be a peace keeping force.

So many smarter ways of "fighting" for a united Ireland. Shooting a random BA private who is following orders is retarded. Its the politicians who give the orders who need their arms twisted.

The IRA bashing comes from bombing shopping centers and all that crap and they deserve to be bashed, they brought disgrace on themselves. NO MATTER WHAT THE OTHER SIDE DID you cant justify it.

excellent point.

dlofnep

menoscemo wrote: »

And that's why it offends me and many others, because we are in the group he sides with, yet we are none of the things you accused us of being.
Anyway I will be making no more posts on this issue because I want to make only positive ones.

I agree with this. rb_ie has made some very broad generalisations about Republicans, including immigrant bashers... along with a previous poster who labeled us nazis. I am of the belief that the moderation should at least address statements like these, because they are offensive.

thelordofcheese

Deleted User wrote: »

EXACTLY!!
This is where the Irish 26 counties FAILED and let the people of the North down.
Frankly it disgusts me. All they had to do was cross the border, make an international incident out of it and call in the UN and there would be a peace keeping force.

Yes, invading the territory of another sovereign nation does tend to be classed as an international incident. But more importantly, how would it make us any different to the british?

(and doubly so, what makes you think the Irish army would have lasted long enough for the UN to do anything against the British army, which is still one of the best in the world)

When it kicked off the British held back on sending in their army for about 6 months.
Check out the released govt documents from the time. They thought that we were going to move in.
They didnt want the place.

O'Coonassa

escobar wrote: »

Britian is the larger of the two Islands which includes Scotland, Wales and England. If you're not from that Island you cannot call yourself British and be correct. It would get a little confusing if you could just make up where you're from.

It would indeed be very confusing, as it would be also if you could just make up your history to suit á la PH Pearse and all the other good Cathublicans. I think maybe you must have missed the post where I pointed out that the most ancient name for the peoples of both these islands translates as Britons by virtue of a label stuck on us by the Greeks. If you dispute that the Greeks had any right to pass comment on us, and leave a name that stuck more on the other island than this one then that's your perogative.

However you have to remember that in more recent times during the past 800 years or so there have been a hefty number of incomers here from that other island. If they wish to remember that fact in what they chose to call themselves then that too is their perogative.

If you want to ignore that go ahead, you don't have to pay it any mind, you can pretend all you want to that everybody here has only ever been full of the Gaelically Gaelic Gaeliscism of the Gaels. Go ahead I won't try and stop you, I like to think I'm a big hearted fella.

You have to admit though that there might just possibly be a section of Irishmen who don't see things exactly the same way as you do, perhaps the Chinese ones, perhaps the British ones. Personally for my part I miss my old Ivernic tounge and culture that the Gaels took away from me. I might even try and revive the dead language and see if I can persuade the Christian Brothers to beat it into small children. You never know it might just work

Rb

dlofnep wrote: »

I agree with this. rb_ie has made some very broad generalisations about Republicans, including immigrant bashers... along with a previous poster who labeled us nazis. I am of the belief that the moderation should at least address statements like these, because they are offensive.

Oh so it's alright for the Pro-Unity people to come out with statements such as "If you're not Pro-Unity, you're a filthy West Brit who condones the things they did to Catholics up North" yet when I say something, linking Republicans to the IRA, the mods are called in to take action on it?

You can be a republican all you like, but you've got to realise you're going to be tied to the IRA by doing so.

Rb

Deleted User wrote: »

The IRA bashing comes from bombing shopping centers and all that crap and they deserve to be bashed, they brought disgrace on themselves. NO MATTER WHAT THE OTHER SIDE DID you cant justify it.

Indeed.

AlmightyCushion

This has turned into a bitchfest. Enough is enough.