What to do with my Journalism Degree?

santosubito

jdivision wrote: »

You can actually, many of the best subs I know have never worked as reporters. They went straight from journalism degrees into subbing because they knew they had the mindset for it. On the other hand some of the former reporters/editors I've seen become subs are terrible. Quality varies tremendously and I know some great ones and I know some where if I knew they were editing my copy I'd read it again afterwards to ensure they haven't filled it with inaccuracies.

I disagree. I've worked in maybe five different nationals in the last 14 odd years and all the best subs, to a man and woman, have been former reporters who have moved over, or up. I know that where I currently work there are perhaps four subs who, for example, get the court copy consistently. Why? Because they have the experience and skills set necessary to either spot anything that may be prejudicial or to turn 40 turgid pars from an agency into 15 or 20 readable pars without getting the editor into contempt of court.
The standard of subbing in this country has gone to the dogs in recent years and I contend it is because people are coming straight out of college and going on the subs' desk without any real experience.
And what are they told? Do a few years on the subs' desk and you'll get a reporter's gig - that's ridiculous. It should be the other way round.
You don't go from medical school into surgery; you don't go from Templemore into the detective branch; you don't become an SC as soon as you are called to the Bar. Why should you be given an extremely important role in a newspaper, which subbing is, straight out of college? You need to learn the skills of writing before correcting what other reporters write – you don’t get that in college.
Subs are there, among other things, to stop mistakes getting through the system. They need a sophisticated knowledge that, in my opinion, comes only with having been a reporter. I'm sick of young ones taking my copy and putting mistakes into it. I think most reporters would have the same gripe.
But, having said that, you make a valid point that many reporters would make crap subs. I would put myself in that category, definitely as regards headline writing. I think you obviously have to have a disposition to the job...all I'm saying is that you should report and write for a period of time beforehand.

jmcc

I suppose that technology journalism is an open door. A lot of journalism graduates seem to use it as a way into journalism. Consequently the general quality of technology journalism in Ireland is poor and most of the time it is just recycled press releases with a byline. The editorial side of technology journalism isn't particularly good either. The copy for the Indo is mainly supplied by Siliconrepublic.com. ENN.ie does all that PR and fluff for companies and just recycles. In recent years, most Irish "technology" journalists have ended up in PR agencies.

Regards...jmcc

santosubito

Do people not agree that the standard of subbing in nationals has declined sharply in recent years?

silvine

I suppose that technology journalism is an open door. A lot of journalism graduates seem to use it as a way into journalism. Consequently the general quality of technology journalism in Ireland is poor and most of the time it is just recycled press releases with a byline. The editorial side of technology journalism isn't particularly good either. The copy for the Indo is mainly supplied by Siliconrepublic.com. ENN.ie does all that PR and fluff for companies and just recycles. In recent years, most Irish "technology" journalists have ended up in PR agencies.

The Irish Times and the Business Post both have good technology sections. I disagree that ENN/Silicon Republic are all just fluff and PR. Like any newspaper they publish some good stories and some bad stories. Newspapers fill their pages with fluff and PR in a wide range of areas. Levelling that criticism at technology magazines/websites is unfair. PC Live! is a good technology magazine too - informative features etc etc.

jmcc

silvine wrote: »

The Irish Times and the Business Post both have good technology sections.

The Irish Times has improved somewhat. But both of them are cargo-cult technology sections rather than real technology sections and are aimed at non-technologists. The Irish Times and SBP's technology sections are more about the business of technology rather than technology.

I disagree that ENN/Silicon Republic are all just fluff and PR.

I consider Siliconrepublic.com to be far better in terms of original content. ENN.ie is ,and has been for quite some time, primarily a press release recycler.

Like any newspaper they publish some good stories and some bad stories.

It looks like you haven't much experience with technology journalism. Most good publications have a balance between features, news and press releases. Features and news are expensive, especially when it comes to having the people with the knowledge to determine whether the article is accurate. This forces these publications into a downward spiral of relying on press releases.

Levelling that criticism at technology magazines/websites is unfair. PC Live! is a good technology magazine too - informative features etc etc.

Like hell it is! Most Irish technology publications are just advertising supplements. PC Live! is, from what I remember, the only surviving general tech magazine. The reason that Ireland has such weak technology media is because of the low (technological knowledge) quality of the journalists and the size of the market. As such, it is an easy way for journalism graduates with no real technological expertise to get their bylines on articles to that they can trade up to real publications and real jobs.

Regards...jmcc

silvine

The Irish Times has improved somewhat. But both of them are cargo-cult technology sections rather than real technology sections and are aimed at non-technologists. The Irish Times and SBP's technology sections are more about the business of technology rather than technology.

Technology journalism is relevant to more than people who work or the industry or are in the know. And their stories are not all cargo-cult either. The front page of the Irish Times, today, carried a well-written and researched story about the sale of Iona Technologies. It's a big business story and a big technology story. As for the Business Post being about the business of technology it is a business paper!

I consider Siliconrepublic.com to be far better in terms of original content. ENN.ie is ,and has been for quite some time, primarily a press release recycler.

That is more to do with your reading preference than the quality of the two websites. The Silicon Republic tends to have more product reviews etc. You say you consider Silicon Republic far better yet in your previous post you were describing the general quality of Irish tech journalism to be poor. So is it the one exception?

ENN has a higher turn around of varying news stories. It provides product reviews, reports on the various technology stories that other papers are carrying, has details about various internet trends and provides financial performance reports on various tech companies (not all of them good news or PR fluff). Check out the Payzone story for example.

Most good publications have a balance between features, news and press releases. Features and news are expensive, especially when it comes to having the people with the knowledge to determine whether the article is accurate. This forces these publications into a downward spiral of relying on press releases.

That is something that applies to journalism as a whole rather than just technology journalism. Tell me then what are the publications that you value and would say are doing a better job than their Irish counterparts?

Like hell it is! Most Irish technology publications are just advertising supplements. PC Live! is, from what I remember, the only surviving general tech magazine. The reason that Ireland has such weak technology media is because of the low (technological knowledge) quality of the journalists and the size of the market. As such, it is an easy way for journalism graduates with no real technological expertise to get their bylines on articles to that they can trade up to real publications and real jobs.

Have you read PC Live! recently? The last edition had features about steam-punk, the state of Irish broadband and part of long running feature about a family being introduced to various aspects of digital media. Hardly the stuff of press releases or a rag mag written by people with little or no knowledge about the area.

jmcc

silvine wrote: »

That is more to do with your reading preference than the quality of the two websites.

No. It has to do with my opinion and in this case, it is an expert opinion whereas your opinion is not.

The Silicon Republic tends to have more product reviews etc. You say you consider Silicon Republic far better yet in your previous post you were describing the general quality of Irish tech journalism to be poor. So is it the one exception?

The general quality of Irish technology journalism is poor because it is such a small market. Simple enough? SR is better because it has more diversity in its content and works at maintaining a balance.

ENN has a higher turn around of varying news stories.

Bull****! It just recycles press releases and shoves stuff from Silicon.com and TheRegister.co.uk into the mix. Any original content is lost in a deluge of PR fluff and recycled press releases - that is the reality.

Tell me then what are the publications that you value and would say are doing a better job than their Irish counterparts?

TheRegister.co.uk? Various specialist publications and sites?

Have you read PC Live! recently? The last edition had features about steam-punk, the state of Irish broadband and part of long running feature about a family being introduced to various aspects of digital media. Hardly the stuff of press releases or a rag mag written by people with little or no knowledge about the area.

What Irish competition does it have?

Regards...jmcc

silvine

What is it that makes your opinion more expert than mine, how long have you been working as a journalist?

I asked you to mention some Irish technology sources that were good. TheRegister is decent but it's English. What about the various technology slots on Today FM, Newstalk? Do you dislike them too? From my reading if you posts it seems like you have some fondness for Silicon Republic but that's it!

PC Live's competition? How about the dozens of English tech mags that take up most of the shelf in the business/technology section in any shop. They might not be Irish but they are serious competition. And of course the internet.

Yes there has been a larger amount of sourced news stories on ENN recently but if you look in the archives will find some quality tech writing in there too.

Just because the Irish market is small that does not mean that the standard of tech journalist is too. That is a tired argument that is thrown out time and time again when people talk about the "state of Irish journalism".

jmcc

silvine wrote: »

What is it that makes your opinion more expert than mine, how long have you been working as a journalist?

Twenty two years or so. I've also written/co-written a few books on technology.

I asked you to mention some Irish technology sources that were good.

The Irish tech market shifted to more collaborative formats such as the fora on boards.ie and mailing lists. It has fragmented the market. Computerscope tends to have some interesting commentary.

TheRegister is decent but it's English.

The technology reporting market is global. The web changed everything.

What about the various technology slots on Today FM, Newstalk?

I don't even bother listening to them. They are aimed at non-technologists.

From my reading if you posts it seems like you have some fondness for Silicon Republic but that's it!

No. I think that SR is doing a better job than ENN.ie. It also recycles press releases but it maintains a balance that is crucial to any decent publication.

PC Live's competition?

PC Live's Irish competition? Does it have any?

Yes there has been a larger amount of sourced news stories on ENN recently but if you look in the archives will find some quality tech writing in there too.

A few - but the vast majority of stuff on ENN is PR. The quality of its self-originated stuff varies.

Just because the Irish market is small that does not mean that the standard of tech journalist is too.

There is a few good Irish technology journalists. The majority of them are just wasting their time.

Regards...jmcc

Overdraft

santosubito wrote: »

all the best subs, to a man and woman, have been former reporters who have moved over, or up.

A different experience here, I can honestly say not a single brilliant sub I've known over the years - and there have been many - has been a former reporter.

Subbing, in my humble opinion, is a very different skill to reporting - when it reaches the point that a reporter's work is so poor the Sub effectively needs to re-write the copy then that reporter should no longer be employed, simple as that.

Having said that, the submitted copy of one of the highest paid columnists in the country is so unintelligible (his 'spelling' is legendary) it bears no resemblance to what actually appears in his paper - but you get away with these things when you're a big name, apparently! It would be nice, though, if he familarised himself with commas and full-stops, just to make life a little easier for the Subs.

But if, generally, the writers employed by a newspaper can actually write then the Subs can get on with what they do best - Subbing!

PS Considering the age-old abuse showered on Subs by aggrieved reporters - "they're just journalism wannabes" - I'm surprised so many of the Subs you know were journalists. Again, it must be my age.

santosubito wrote: »

Do people not agree that the standard of subbing in nationals has declined sharply in recent years?

Yes, of course.

I've often thought a job 'swap' for a day between reporters and subs would be fantastic, although I can only imagine the state of the publication the next day!

Having worked as both a reporter and a sub, I can see where the problems arise between the two.
Some reporters' copy is atricious. I've subbed court copy in which the reporter has left the "not" out of "not guilty".
Likewise, I've worked with subs fresh out of college who clatter away rewriting copy that doesn't need to be rewritten. That's bloody frustrating for a reporter.

monument

I'm going to try to comment more on both subbing and tech journalism.

In the meanwhile, this was sent to ENN email subscribers... in short, less original news...

[Ennupdate] At ENN we're changing the way we deliver news

Dear ENN Reader,

Less time? More ENN...

At ENN we're changing the way we publish news. Following our largest ever Reader Survey, hundreds of you told us what you like best about ENN, and we've heard you.

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Starting this summer, ENN readers will have all these great ways to keep up with the news that matters:


* "In the papers" - Our most popular feature, now available by email. So many of you told us you love ITP, which summarises the morning's tech news from the Irish, UK and US papers, every business day. Sign up now to get the full text direct to your inbox -- email itp@enn.ie with 'subscribe' in the subject line
* Weekly Digest - If you only read one ICT news source, the Weekly Digest has to be it. Now in its 10th year, the Digest is your must-read summary of the week's key ICT developments affecting Irish readers. Now published every Thursday, incorporating our popular Telecoms & Mobile Digest. If you're not already signed up to the Weekly Digest, email weeklydigest@enn.ie with 'subscribe' in the subject line
* Daily Digest - A daily summary of the most important ICT news briefs, with a focus on Irish companies making headlines. Essential reading to keep you on top of the news, available by RSS and online at www.enn.ie


Plus, you'll still be able to view and submit Events to ENN, personalise your News Alerts, and view all our content in RSS. Thanks to all for your support.

Best regards,

Sheila

PS - don't forget that our content reaches 15,000 individual readers by email -- it's one of the best ways to reach out directly to Ireland's community of ICT and business professionals. If you'd like to book an advertising or sponsorship spot, email me directly at sheila@enn.ie or get details here www.enn.ie/static/advertise.html

santosubito

Overdraft wrote: »

A different experience here, I can honestly say not a single brilliant sub I've known over the years - and there have been many - has been a former reporter.

Subbing, in my humble opinion, is a very different skill to reporting - when it reaches the point that a reporter's work is so poor the Sub effectively needs to re-write the copy then that reporter should no longer be employed, simple as that.

Having said that, the submitted copy of one of the highest paid columnists in the country is so unintelligible (his 'spelling' is legendary) it bears no resemblance to what actually appears in his paper - but you get away with these things when you're a big name, apparently! It would be nice, though, if he familarised himself with commas and full-stops, just to make life a little easier for the Subs.

But if, generally, the writers employed by a newspaper can actually write then the Subs can get on with what they do best - Subbing!

PS Considering the age-old abuse showered on Subs by aggrieved reporters - "they're just journalism wannabes" - I'm surprised so many of the Subs you know were journalists. Again, it must be my age.

Interesting. But, I wonder, how did these brilliant subs get into subbing? Surely they didn't start as a cub sub, did such a thing even exist in the day?
To be slightly pedantic I said former reporters, not journalists.

santosubito

Deleted User wrote: »

I've often thought a job 'swap' for a day between reporters and subs would be fantastic, although I can only imagine the state of the publication the next day!

Having worked as both a reporter and a sub, I can see where the problems arise between the two.
Some reporters' copy is atricious. I've subbed court copy in which the reporter has left the "not" out of "not guilty".
Likewise, I've worked with subs fresh out of college who clatter away rewriting copy that doesn't need to be rewritten. That's bloody frustrating for a reporter.

Yes. Now, were you a reporter or sub first, as a matter of interest?

santosubito

santosubito wrote: »

Yes. Now, were you a reporter or sub first, as a matter of interest?

Reporter first.
Long story about how I ended up subbing, I won't bore you with the details!

santosubito

Having looked at many previous posts, I may have inferred I was not the biggest fan of subs. They are obviously necessary. Many of them them are great.

ddaa

Can anyone tell me how to contact or who to contact at RE&D? I cant find them on the net?

April Raine

Overdraft wrote: »

Having said that, the submitted copy of one of the highest paid columnists in the country is so unintelligible (his 'spelling' is legendary) it bears no resemblance to what actually appears in his paper - but you get away with these things when you're a big name, apparently!

How did he get to be a big name in the first place? Nepotism? Also those who come from well known families can get away with things and attitudes others would not

maniac_cop

santosubito wrote: »

Why do you hate local papers?
If you get the right one, there is no better place to learn the ropes.
Have you contacted any papers or newsrooms trying to get shifts?

I am considering doing a degree in journalism, and I think even the prospect of working for a local newspaper is very exciting.....as a matter of interest what would the money be like when your at the bottom just out of college?

silvine

Money? Journalism? Good one.

Seriously be prepared to be shafted. Less than 25K.

maniac_cop

silvine wrote: »

Money? Journalism? Good one.

Seriously be prepared to be shafted. Less than 25K.

Thats not so bad, you have to start somewhere.

jdivision

You almost certainly won't get a job when leaving college, you'll probably freelance but you can earn decent money if you're good. If you go into radio or something expect it to be crap

Dudess

NewsTalk - 10-hour researcher shift, €100. Erm... thanks.

Overdraft wrote: »

Having said that, the submitted copy of one of the highest paid columnists in the country is so unintelligible (his 'spelling' is legendary) it bears no resemblance to what actually appears in his paper - but you get away with these things when you're a big name, apparently! It would be nice, though, if he familarised himself with commas and full-stops, just to make life a little easier for the Subs.

And I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about - not exactly brilliant at the auld broadcasting either is he...?

April Raine wrote: »

How did he get to be a big name in the first place? Nepotism? Also those who come from well known families can get away with things and attitudes others would not

No, he is an excellent journalist in terms of having a nose for a great story and in terms of putting himself out there to break the major news.

An excellent journalist/reporter is not necessarily going to be an excellent writer - and vice versa. I had a shyte nose for news when I did journalism but I had a degree of talent for feature writing.

April Raine

Dudess wrote: »

.An excellent journalist/reporter is not necessarily going to be an excellent writer - and vice versa. I had a shyte nose for news when I did journalism but I had a degree of talent for feature writing.

you remind me of a friend. Where would someone who has a crap news nose but is an excellent writer get a job. Bear in mind he has little formal training

Dudess

Freelance feature writing really - no jobs outside of news. Maybe sub-editing? Not for everyone though.

jdivision

April Raine wrote: »

you remind me of a friend. Where would someone who has a crap news nose but is an excellent writer get a job. Bear in mind he has little formal training

Is he really an excellent writer for media though. The amount of people I know who are good writers but don't have a clue how to write a story or feature is legion. In my year in college there was a bunch of people who were outstanding at English, very few made it in journalism. Being able to write a flowery essay means nothing tbh.

Dudess am with you on the Newstalk thing, I remember the days of E70 for 8 hours in a particular news service provider. In addition one week I worked 35 hours in a particular newspaper and got paid E70 cos they only had room for one of the stories I had written. The dubious joy of working for word count!!!

Dudess

Oh print undoubtedly pays considerably more. I remember everyone in my class, bar two, who did their placement at a newspaper got paid. Everyone who did their placement at a radio station got zilch. And one of the two papers, while it didn't pay a set rate, it still paid for every article published by the girl on the placement.