Degrees no guarantee of standard of living

LostinBlanch

Well if this article is to be believed.

The kids learning to swim at the pool near Via Casilina, in a working-class suburb of Rome, could not ask for better qualified instructors. One is a literature graduate with a masters in communications from Brussels, while another, Antonio di Martino, is an aerospace engineer.

Di Martino, 30, still has to finish his degree, but with a one-year-old baby and another child on the way, and afternoons and evenings working at the pool to bring in €1,100 (£870) a month, something had to give.

'Some of the pressure to graduate also slipped away when I saw one friend get his degree and then only earn €500 a month at an Italian space firm and another get €800 a month at the European Space Agency,' said Di Martino, bouncing his son on his knee as his partner, Mattia, rushes out the door to her teaching job, which pays €1,200 a month. 'My parents bought me my flat, making me one of the lucky ones since prices are crazy and I would never get a mortgage,' he said. 'I spent two years of savings on doing up the bathroom and now I worry about my son. One problem, one unforeseen expense and things get serious.'

He said price checking in supermarkets was the norm - 'something my mother never did'. And the family thinks hard before travelling. 'With petrol and tolls, even a trip to my parents in southern Italy now costs €100.'

Di Martino is part of a new phenomenon sweeping Europe. As he spoke, Africa Garcia Arias, 32, was nearing the end of a 45-hour week in a busy Madrid hospital. Six months pregnant, Arias will scale back her working week in the coming month. But, though she is exhausted, this is hardly much relief. Her salary of €1,600 will drop to €1,000 a month.

On Friday night, Lorenzo, 35, was on a train heading to work a nightshift for a major American sales website's Berlin branch. He trained as a historian and a photographer. 'The pay is just about OK - €2,700 a month for a 40-hour week - but it is hardly the job I dreamed of doing,' he said.

And in Paris, Nathalie, 24, was sitting in a friend's tiny rented flat in the rundown 20th arrondissement, the poorest district of the city, having finished another month of unpaid 'work experience' for a major publishing company. Tomorrow she will be at the second home of her parents in Brittany to sit in the sun in the garden, read and swim. 'I look at how they live, and how they lived when they were my age or a few years older, and I realise that I will never have any of that,' she said. 'I am not sure whether to be angry, sad or simply resigned.'

With inflation soaring, property prices sky high, wages relatively static, labour markets gridlocked and sluggish or slowing economies, Nathalie, Lorenzo, Arias and Di Martino are among tens of millions of Europeans raised to expect that their degrees and diplomas will assure them a relatively high quality of life who are now realising that the world has changed. The disappointment is a shock with big political, social, cultural, even demographic consequences.

'I am angry. I know a lot of people who are in the same situation and our qualifications are not being rewarded,' said Arias. For Nathalie, the weekend in her parents' seaside home will leave 'a bitter taste in my mouth'.

Freelance architect Emilio Tinoco Vertiz, 32, earns just €1,000 a month. 'Who needs architects when no one wants to build houses?' he said. In Spain people such as Emilio are known from their pay as the 'mileuristas' (thousand euro-ers). In France they are the 'babylosers' - a term coined by sociologist Louis Chauvel to contrast them with 'babyboomers'. According to Chauvel, 41, a sociologist at the National Foundation for Political Science, for the first time in recent history a generation of French citizens aged between 20 and 40 can expect a lower standard of living than the one before. 'Mileuristas or babylosers: it's the same story,' he said. 'They have an average of three years more education than their parents, a worse job and a lower standard of living.'

In 1973, only 6 per cent of recent university leavers in France were unemployed; now the rate is 25 to 30 per cent; salaries have stagnated for 20 years while property prices have doubled or trebled, though the overall proportion of French people living in poverty has not changed. Whereas in the 1960s the poor were mainly the old, now they are the young; in 1970, salaries for 50-year-olds were only 15 per cent higher than those for workers of 30; the gap now is 40 per cent.

'Some talk of a war between the generations, but that's a little simplistic. It is more that the system means that the haves are keeping what they have and no one is helping the have-nots,' said Chauvel. 'The big determinant in France now of success is not your educational level but the wealth of your parents, if they can support you during your twenties as you fight your way into a closed employment market.'

French economists speak of 'insiders and outsiders'. The insiders are those who already have a job and are well-defended by the battery of French laws protecting the workforce and the unions. The outsiders are those without work which, naturally, include newcomers on the job market. Chauvel says the problem is particularly bad in Latin countries where parents are expected to support their children much longer.

In Spain, even during the boom years when growth outstripped the rest of the European Union, the 'mileuristas' found themselves unable to afford their own homes. But now with the Spanish economy crashing, prospects are grim. In the first three months of 2008, Spanish unemployment hit 9.6 per cent, the highest for three years and second only to Slovakia in the 27-nation EU.

Once one of Europe's success stories, Spain's Socialist government has been forced to cut its 2008 growth estimate to 2.3 per cent from 3.1 per cent. Josep Comajuncosa, a macro-economics specialist at the Esade business school in Barcelona, said the downturn may help the 'mileuristas' buy homes but it will not solve their basic problem. 'What is needed is a model of growth based on greater productivity and new industries primarily service-based such as IT, financial services and new technology which can raise salaries,' he said.

In an effort to save Spain from the worst effects of the downturn, the government has announced an ambitious public works programme, including a massive social housing plan that could help many to finally buy property. Such policies are likely to become common.

In Germany, according to a report published by consultancy McKinsey, those earning between 70 and 150 per cent of the average income - the standard definition of the middle class - will make up less than half the population by 2020, against 54 per cent today.

Only eight years ago, 62 per cent of Germans were in the middle-class bracket, according to a second study. Key markers of middle-class status - such as overseas holidays - are disappearing or becoming blurred. 'I haven't been away for two years,' said Aurel Thurn, 38, who works for an art gallery in Berlin and has top-level qualifications, 10 years' experience and speaks four languages fluently. 'I have enough money for my rent, my telephone and food. But that's it.'

Many feel that Germany's middle class has not benefited from the nation's recent economic recovery. The result has been political pressure, with trade union activism and a wave of industrial action aimed at securing higher wages and enhanced benefits as well as lower taxes for average earners and higher taxes on the rich. Germany's political parties have reacted by boosting public spending and are considering wide tax cuts.

'There is a political swing towards what were once considered the ideas of the political left such as minimum wages, benefits and so on,' said Holgar Schaefer, labour economist at the Cologne Institute of Economics. 'It is a tendency that is only likely to become more obvious in coming years.'

The same thing is happening elsewhere. In France, there has been a mass mobilisation of teachers and pupils against plans to slash staffing levels. 'It is completely unprecedented,' said author and journalist Ariane Chemin.

'There is a potentially explosive combination of political disillusion with a fascination for politics. Young people are both deeply cynical and deeply politicised. They are at the school gates calling teachers who work "scabs". We haven't seen anything like it for years.'

But it may be that, instead of the demise of the European class, we are merely witnessing its evolution. Daniel Gros, of the Centre for European Policy Studies in Brussels, said the middle classes across Europe were 'splintering'. 'The homogeneous middle class that you once had based on industry and a protected government sector is disappearing,' he said.

The political and social consequences are already visible. The success of Nicolas Sarkozy is one, according to Gros. 'The old massive blocs of Gaullist right and Socialist left based on clear understandings of what it is to be working class and socialist have broken down,' he said. 'Sarkozy's appeal cut across those classic divisions.'

Analysts also point out that the 'hardship' of the middle classes is relative - according to the European Commission, there are an estimated 16 million people in the EU at risk of poverty. 'The decline in standards of living for young middle class people is pretty moderate when compared with the very dramatic situation of their counterparts in totally marginalised communities such as the poor French suburbs,' said Professor Ian Begg of the London School of Economics.

'And it is an extremely varied picture. New service sector jobs can be low grade and badly paid - such as night shifts for an IT company - or very lucrative. Collectively, Europe is richer than it has ever been. Average income has been going up pretty well without a blip since 1945 and whatever the disparities some of that has filtered down to pretty much everybody.'

Begg pointed out that, with economic and social changes, a certain amount of 'blurring' was inevitable. 'There is a trend towards a certain classlessness and some win and some lose. Jobs that were previously passports to stable middle-class incomes and wealth no longer are. And those who lose out most tend to shout loudest.'

Mileuristas? 1,000 euros a month after getting a degree to enhance your employment prospects? Hmmmmm, some tough times ahead methinks.

Feelgood

Well the majority of the worlds richest people didn't even go to college, let alone get a degree. Degrees don't hold the prestige that they used to. Its all about experience nowadays which makes a lot more sense anyway.

There is only so much that can be done with text book knowledge...

dresden8

And of course the middle class are being squeezed. It's all about the lower costs and all that.

Anyway, when I left school in 1986 (without a degree) a degree meant something. Now, anyone can nearly go for some kind of third level education. Numbers devalue the degrees worth.

It's the new leaving cert don't you know.

leninbenjamin

did a bit of research before for economics that overlapped with this. the problem appears to partly lie in the fact governments, particularly our own, have emphases quantity over quality. It's only the truly brilliant that increase living standards frankly, they are who come up with the innovations but form the smallest component of the education systems. and if what i've read is to be believed, in real terms funding is actually falling for the post-post grad pursuits, that funding has shifted to the lower levels. which basically means you've a load of overqualified phds out there not doing anything with them.

and if you look at a lot the more dominant economic models into 'innovation', it's all speculatory and idealistic bull**** completely ignorant of the on the ground factors. don't expect to see a change anytime soon.

SkepticOne

1000 euros a month is an unbelievable amount of money in most of the world. The problem is that we have high prices. Everything is expensive by world standards and governments are not doing enough to free up markets that would allow prices to come down.

Padraig Mor

leninbenjamin wrote: »

the problem appears to partly lie in the fact governments, particularly our own, have emphases quantity over quality. .

True. The Irish government now want to double the number of PhD graduates in the coming years. Do you think there's jobs for them afterwards though?! Not a chance. The standard of PhD graduates is also plumetting.

bonkey

SkepticOne wrote: »

1000 euros a month is an unbelievable amount of money in most of the world.

Yes, but in those places you won't earn 1000 euros a month working at a swimming pool.

bonkey

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Mileuristas? 1,000 euros a month after getting a degree to enhance your employment prospects? Hmmmmm, some tough times ahead methinks.

I know no shortage of people who finished university at the same time as me, and couldn't find a job. That was, of course, before the 'good times' of Ireland's success of recent years/decades.

University degrees have never been a guarantee of a job. I find the notion that they could be seen that way more telling then the content of the story the OP linked to.

LostinBlanch

Lenin, Feelgood, Dresden. You are right in the fact that 3rd level education has become akin to what the leaving cert was years ago. The fact is graduates etc are in a qualifications race (as opposed to an arms race). But even for people that get a PhD it's not guaranteed that they are going to get a good standard of living. Despite all this crap spouted here about a knowledge economy, which is mere rhetoric if the proper backup isn't forthcoming.


Bonkey I have never subscribed to the belief a degree is a guarantee of a job, but as companies are less likely to take people on without the proper qualifications, it means that not having one makes getting many jobs less likely.

Imposter

I think the examples given are a bit extreme but the point is a good one.

Are the amounts quoted nett or gross?
You cannot compare the amounts as the systems in countries differ so much. Ok, they can't get jobs in what they studied but there can be many reasons for that and such a situation has always existed in some form or another. As the article says the have-nots will shout louder.

The general point seems to be true though as things like wage agreements, minimum wages, etc, lead to a situation where the traditional lower wages earners earn more relative to the "middle classes" than they used to and as a result push up the prices of housing and probably everything else which puts more pressure on all affected by it.

DadaKopf

While I think there's something in this article, it's not amazingly rigorous. It says a lot about the extremes of what some middle-class graduates are earning, but nowhere does it compare variations in, for example, the consumer price indices of each country. And what about tax and redistribution regimes? Are these earnings before or after taxes and social welfare payments/tax breaks? With a common currency, this would be surprisingly easy for him to calculate, if he knows how.

The author also doesn't question why this is happening, whatever 'this' is. I mean, the real story here is that a much larger share of national wealth across the EU has been going to the richest groups in society, less wealthy groups are losing out, and this has been by design, not by accident.

And, it's hard to tell which side of the debate he comes down on. Sometimes, it's as if he thinks more economic liberalisation is the answer - to kickstart the economy and create more jobs, which also causes more hardship. On the other hand, he mentions the swing to the left that often happens at times like this.

MontgomeryClift

I discovered a degree was useless when I got one. But when I got a Master's Degree - Ah, now that was really useless.

is_that_so

There's also the attitude problem and ridiculous expectations. Many a graduate has turned their nose up at entry level jobs. All they have proved is that they can navigate their way through a four year course. In my experience the standard of ability of what comes out of college, is not always great, either.

The degree has replaced the LC in many ways and in a lot of way the untrammelled freedom seems to encourage some students to party their way through. That said can't say anything more than 10% of my own course was useful.

Gurgle

One is a literature graduate with a masters in communications from Brussels

A literature graduate?
& that could be expected to get you a nice cushy high-paying job doing..... what?

Antonio di Martino, is an aerospace engineer....
Di Martino, 30, still has to finish his degree

So hes not an aerospace engineer, he's an undergraduate engineering student.
Or, as hinted by this bit:

something had to give

a college dropout.

As for the rest of it:

Do people expect to finish college with any miscellaneous degree and walk straight into a great, interesting, well-paid job?

djpbarry

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The standard of PhD graduates is also plumetting.

Is it?

CerebralCortex

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

I discovered a degree was useless when I got one. But when I got a Master's Degree - Ah, now that was really useless.

I find it rather difficult to believe that a degree is useless. I've used mine to great effect, it took some searching though for the right job. But thats just me, I do believe that the people who graduated with me had different ideas of where there degree would take them and what it would guarantee. I can only speak from a successful point of view, so apologies, but I think a majority of people confuse the purpose of studying for a degree, I believe it is a way of growing a skill you have a deep interest in and not a ticket to a well paid job this is of course an opinion of having gone through the system.

Oracle

This is an interesting topic. I think there's no doubt a degree is no guarantee of a great job or decent standard of living. There's a lot said about how beneficial education is, and also about the "knowledge economy" we are all now supposed to be living in. It's true that the internet, computers and mass communication have changed society, in many beneficial ways. But I believe we are in the same society we were always in and that in general, the most value is added to products and services by practical means, not by knowledge. For example, I find it surprising that leading economists can talk about the knowledge economy creating all the wealth, with all the opportunities, but then go on to talk about the construction boom. They seem to miss the point that construction is the single biggest creator of wealth in Ireland in the last 10 years, and it's hardly a knowledge industry.

I've read the writings of former teacher John Taylor Gatto, he suggests that school, far from developing the potential of each child, is damaging and a dumbing down of children. In his view it's enforced conformity and extending of childhood is crippling for children and for society. I'd agree with some of his ideas, one of his most famous books is called Against School, an excerpt of which is available on line.

SkepticOne

Oracle wrote: »

I find it surprising that leading economists can talk about the knowledge economy creating all the wealth, with all the opportunities, but then go on to talk about the construction boom. They seem to miss the point that construction is the single biggest creator of wealth in Ireland in the last 10 years, and it's hardly a knowledge industry.

Has construction actually generated real liquid wealth for the country as a whole? Obviously it has made builders and associated industries rich but has it brought money into the country? We are not exporting houses. We are not earning foreign currency through making and selling houses to each other.

We do need a knowledge economy to sustainably create real wealth, but I think we're a bit away from that. We can't compete with other countries in ordinary manufacturing so we have no choice but to go down the knowledge route. Unfortunately the unsustainable building boom (now collapsing) and the prop to the economy provided by low corporation tax has blinded us to this necessity.

DublinWriter

Education is never wasted.

You are missing the point completely if you look at education primarily as a tool to better yourself economically; that's just a petty-bourgeois conceit.

It's a trait of our modern consumerist society that we reduce everything down to the level of a being a commodity.

Second level education thought me how to answer questions. Third level education thought me how to question answers.

leninbenjamin

Oracle wrote: »

I've read the writings of former teacher John Taylor Gatto, he suggests that school, far from developing the potential of each child, is damaging and a dumbing down of children. In his view it's enforced conformity and extending of childhood is crippling for children and for society. I'd agree with some of his ideas, one of his most famous books is called Against School, an excerpt of which is available on line.

haven't read his stuff, but from what you're saying I wholeheartedly agree, I came to my own conclusion to this a long time ago. in my own case school was more damaging than it did good.

one facet in particular i detest is the entire 'all kids equal' philosophy. the result is that kids who are far more capable are being held back and those who struggle don't have things explained in a manner they understand. a classroom is effectively a battleground between different personalities and aptitudes. priority number one for me is getting the education system to fit the students as opposed to vice versa.

MCMLXXXIII

True, a degree may not be a garuntee for a job. In fact, from what I have seen through friends, and now my personal experience, a degree starts you out at the bottom...the very bottom of a company.

If push comes to shove, I will give swim lessons to make money, but I will keep my eyes open for a "real" job. Where I work, it is a requirement to have a degree. The company will not even look at you without one. However, since there are so many people applying (and staying), the degree doesn't mean much once you are in.

I have a degree, and I started at the bottom. As I stay longer, I get experience, and am able to be promoted to better positions. I would not have the experience I needed if I didn't work the low-end job (with a degree) to start.

Bubs101

The trick is knowing how to utilize your degree. For example if you want to join the police or the army a degree will rocket you to the top very quickly

DadaKopf

DublinWriter wrote: »

Education is never wasted.

You are missing the point completely if you look at education primarily as a tool to better yourself economically; that's just a petty-bourgeois conceit.

It's a trait of our modern consumerist society that we reduce everything down to the level of a being a commodity.

Second level education thought me how to answer questions. Third level education thought me how to question answers.

Readings on nationalism are interesting on this 'petty-bourgeois conceit'. Ernest Gellner, who is a great and also problematic writer on the origins of nationalism in the 1800s, talks about how the extension of universal primary education across Britain was devised not so much out of moral zeal to educate the huddling masses, but to indoctrinate the the emerging middle-classes and to equip them and the upper-working-class with just enough functional literacy and numeracy to supply industry and commerce with skilled technicians and clerks.

In 1969, the students of UCD occupied the Administration block in opposition to what they saw as a degree machine designed to provide 'intellectual pulp for international capitalism'. Or they didn't fancy moving to Belfield.

It's not all bad, though.

partholon

why so surprised? you guys do know the two thirds of the immegrants that came here to lay bricks ane serve lattes have third level qualification behind them dont ya.

TBH theres only one REAL use for a degree. and thats to get your arse into the civil service. never has so many been so educated to do such mind bogglingly tedius work you could train a chimp to do. its all about whittling down the numbers.

like someone else said, its the new leaving cert, and back in the bad ol days or the early nineties you needed one of them to get a job in macdonalds

wait till the recession REALLY bites, you'll see the best educated dole que on the planet

J.S. Pill

This is absolutely nothing new. The Guardian/Observer/Independent seem to love re-hashing this theme.

racso77

Degrees have now become practically worthless.

Firstly you can now have an ordinary degree (formerly diploma) which devalues the original ordinary degrees.

The average standard of student going into and out of college is atrocious.

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

True, a degree may not be a garuntee for a job.

I have a degree, and I started at the bottom.

Schools should concentrate on teaching basic spelling & arithmetic.

The biggest joke of all is the calling for university status of some of IT's (formerly RTC's).

There will be a new breed of student going to university with 150 points barely able to string two sentences together. I don't want to seem elitist but a certain standard has to be kept.

The bar is continuously falling due to the increase of ridiculous college courses so the government can spout out statistics about our fantastic 'educated' workforce.

Gurgle

partholon wrote: »

why so surprised? you guys do know the two thirds of the immegrants that came here to lay bricks ane serve lattes have third level qualification behind them dont ya.

You have a source to back up this bullshìt?

CerebralCortex

racso77 wrote: »

Degrees have now become practically worthless.

Really?! Mine wasn't and I got it recently.

racso77 wrote: »

Firstly you can now have an ordinary degree (formerly diploma) which devalues the original ordinary degrees.

In what way exactly?

racso77 wrote: »

The average standard of student going into and out of college is atrocious.

True there is some saturation but I think thats a bit a generalisation.

racso77 wrote: »

Schools should concentrate on teaching basic spelling & arithmetic.

Actually my parents helped me more with that than schools.

racso77 wrote: »

The biggest joke of all is the calling for university status of some of IT's (formerly RTC's).

There will be a new breed of student going to university with 150 points barely able to string two sentences together. I don't want to seem elitist but a certain standard has to be kept.

The bar is continuously falling due to the increase of ridiculous college courses so the government can spout out statistics about our fantastic 'educated' workforce.

Again why and how do you know? If it has university status it just means it has the facilities to award more bachelors degrees. That doesn't imply that anyone who gets in gets to progress to Bachelor level afaik.

djpbarry

DublinWriter wrote: »

Second level education thought me how to answer questions. Third level education thought me how to question answers.

It seems neither taught you how to write coherent English (sorry, couldn't resist).

RedPlanet

I had an experience on the flip side of this discussion.
About 10 years ago the company i was with advertised for an internal job opening.
It was to administer the company intranet (which was very basic), since i was doing an evening course on website design and basic html i tried to apply.
Only they wouldn't accept my application as i didn't meet one of the criteria:
The applicant must have a college degree.
They gave the job to this woman whom had very little experience with websites and she spent much of her time initially recruiting me to train her.
I protested and resigned.

MontgomeryClift

RedPlanet wrote: »

They gave the job to this woman whom had very little experience with websites and she spent much of her time initially recruiting me to train her.
I protested and resigned.

I see the same sort of thing now. Women have a knack of bluffing their way into good jobs they are not qualified for. And they stay there. That's fine for them. It's not so find for the properly qualified person who's on the dole.

Counselling, education and law seem to be the three rising blagger's industries (If only I could get into one of them!). They're all female-dominated, as far as I know.