Degrees no guarantee of standard of living

DublinWriter

RedPlanet wrote: »

Only they wouldn't accept my application as i didn't meet one of the criteria:
The applicant must have a college degree.

Do you really want to work for a company that wouldn't employ Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Richard Branson to name but a few?

I think one poster said it all - degrees are the new LC, yet perversely I know of an awful lot of companies who won't hire people fresh out of a Masters or Doctorate programmes because they consider them to be 'too academic'.

Firetrap

In a lot of cases, all a university degree shows is that you have a few braincells rattling around in your skull. After a while in the workplace, your work experience counts for far far more than what you did in college. Unless of course you're going for a job as a nuclear physicist or something really specific like that.

I do agree that a primary degree is the new Leaving Cert though. You can't throw a stone these days without hitting someone who's got a degree. Not that that's a bad thing - it's great that Irish people can go on to third level education rather than having to drop out of school at 14 to go work in t'mill. The bar has raised on what is needed to get a job - it has gone up because graduates are ten-a-penny these days and employers can be choosy.

partholon

Gurgle wrote: »

You have a source to back up this bullshìt?

bloke from the ERSI was on newstalk a fair bit back stating that was the case. incidently revealing that only 30% of our own population has a third level qualification and enda kenny makes reference to it in his press realease back in january 07
when talking about his party's approach to immegration prior to the election.

that good enough for you?

TBH why are you surprised? the majority of people that left ireland for america in the eightes had qualifcations out the wazoo. and look at the work they did there. the best educated doing a legger from their own country is nothing new

SkepticOne

Gurgle wrote: »

A literature graduate?
& that could be expected to get you a nice cushy high-paying job doing..... what?

So hes not an aerospace engineer, he's an undergraduate engineering student.
Or, as hinted by this bit:

a college dropout.

As for the rest of it:

Do people expect to finish college with any miscellaneous degree and walk straight into a great, interesting, well-paid job?

Good points. You are only worth what someone else is prepared to pay. It is up to you to make yourself useful in whatever conditions exist. The architect was raking it in during the building boom in Spain, but why should he be paid good money now the boom is over. If a plumber with no degree is more useful than a theologian with a doctorate then the plumber should be paid more. Indeed, he probably has been paid more and rightly so.

dave2pvd

partholon wrote: »

the majority of people that left ireland for america in the eightes had qualifcations out the wazoo. and look at the work they did there.

Right: architects laying bricks, etc. Because they were illegal! Not because their degree was no good.

I wouldn't have even been invited to the interview for the job I'm in now without my degree. And even if I somehow made it into the interview and passed, I wouldn't have known how to do the job!

Is it possible that the 'degrees are useless' crowd here don't know what they are talking about? Maybe there's a 3rd level course out there that you could take?

partholon

dave2pvd wrote: »

Right: architects laying bricks, etc. Because they were illegal! Not because their degree was no good.

I wouldn't have even been invited to the interview for the job I'm in now without my degree. And even if I somehow made it into the interview and passed, I wouldn't have known how to do the job!

Is it possible that the 'degrees are useless' crowd here don't know what they are talking about? Maybe there's a 3rd level course out there that you could take?

did i SAY degrees are useless?

no.

i pointed out people who had them here BUT COULDNT GET A JOB BECAUSE THEY DIDNT EXIST went elsewhere and did **** jobs that paid much better than anything they could get here. JUST like the immegrants coming here now.

history repeats, big fcuking shock

gaf1983

From the original article:

'There is a potentially explosive combination of political disillusion with a fascination for politics. Young people are both deeply cynical and deeply politicised.

See, for example, Mohamed Atta and co in the Hamburg cell. Highly educated, couldn't get jobs they felt they were entitled to, became fanatical murderers.

DadaKopf

gaf1983 wrote: »

From the original article:



See, for example, Mohamed Atta and co in the Hamburg cell. Highly educated, couldn't get jobs they felt they were entitled to, became fanatical murderers.

One of the labour market 'rigidities' in France, IMHO, is racism. Makes people think twice about solutions to the problems described in that news article.

jmayo

racso77 wrote: »

Degrees have now become practically worthless.
Firstly you can now have an ordinary degree (formerly diploma) which devalues the original ordinary degrees.
The average standard of student going into and out of college is atrocious.

Schools should concentrate on teaching basic spelling & arithmetic.

The biggest joke of all is the calling for university status of some of IT's (formerly RTC's).

There will be a new breed of student going to university with 150 points barely able to string two sentences together. I don't want to seem elitist but a certain standard has to be kept.

The bar is continuously falling due to the increase of ridiculous college courses so the government can spout out statistics about our fantastic 'educated' workforce.

In the mid to late 1980s I believe the governments saw education as away of keeping people off the live register before they emigrated.
At one stage a junior lecturer informed me that basically they were told go easy on a class because they didn't want to fail too many and have them drop out and go on dole.

In the 1990s the government used education (and our number of graduates) as a way of attracting certain industries. During the real celtic tiger i.e. the IT/telecoms boom everyone and anyone was being converted into IT engineers/computer scientists with the result that some people working in the industry were being carried by the competent ones. Some people were not suited to the area and ended up being carried by others.

Nowadays the government is trotting out with this cra* that we are so well educated and ideally suited to be this knowledge economy (yeah we will all get jobs in financial services industry or designing software especially when in competition with thousands of low cost Indian graduates) becuase we have so many graduates.

Correct me if I am wrong but was the honours Maths LC course not meant to be revised because the numbers achieving higher grades were decreasing ?

djpbarry

jmayo wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but was the honours Maths LC course not meant to be revised because the numbers achieving higher grades were decreasing ?

Not sure about that, although there was talk of offering bonus points for LC maths across a broad range of courses.

LC maths and science is certainly an area of concern - very few students seem prepared to put the work into them. It's not just a matter of the number of higher grades decreasing; the number of students sitting higher level papers in these subjects is pathetic.

According to a report in the Indo in August last year, regarding LC maths:

* The numbers taking higher-level papers plummeted from 10,645 in 2000 to only 8,388 this year.
* Of the 35,075 students who took ordinary level this year, 4,068 (11.6pc) failed.
* A total of 368 of the 5,580 students who took foundation level failed.

A separate report, also from last August, states that:

IBEC's head of education and social policy Tony Donohue notes that only 7pc, 8pc and 23pc of the full Leaving Certificate cohort this year, secured an honours grade in higher level Physics, Chemistry and Biology respectively. Add to that, the fact that only 15.6pc of candidates took Maths at higher level and only 12.5pc secured an honours grade -- compared with 44pc in English -- and the almost 5,000 Leaving Certificate students who failed Maths.

jmayo

djpbarry wrote: »

Not sure about that, although there was talk of offering bonus points for LC maths across a broad range of courses.

LC maths and science is certainly an area of concern - very few students seem prepared to put the work into them. It's not just a matter of the number of higher grades decreasing; the number of students sitting higher level papers in these subjects is pathetic.

There used to be bonus points for Honours Maths for some courses such as Engineering in some colleges years ago.
Improving the numbers taking and achieving good grades in these subjects by making the courses easier does nobody any favours in the long run.
That is just typical of massaging the system to give the desired results.

Maybe they should make them compulsory, like Irish, English and a foreign language was or is necessary for college entry ?
Maybe if you want to do medical, science, engineering or computers college courses then you must have at least two science subjects.

And before anybody says compulsory doesn't work have they any better ideas in how to get people to sit these subjects, apart from making them pi** easy ?

The Corinthian

DublinWriter wrote: »

I think one poster said it all - degrees are the new LC, yet perversely I know of an awful lot of companies who won't hire people fresh out of a Masters or Doctorate programmes because they consider them to be 'too academic'.

For graduates yes as they will be considered institutionalised. It is generally advisable to get a masters later on in your career though as it can be beneficial at managerial level (the classic example being the MBA).

djpbarry wrote:

IBEC's head of education and social policy Tony Donohue notes that only 7pc, 8pc and 23pc of the full Leaving Certificate cohort this year, secured an honours grade in higher level Physics, Chemistry and Biology respectively.

Very misleading as it is including all LC students, including those who didn't do those subjects but still may have secured an honours grade in completely different subjects.

Love the 23% in Biology statistic though - still the schoolgirls choice of science subject, I see. Omnia mutantur; nihil interit

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

And before anybody says compulsory doesn't work have they any better ideas in how to get people to sit these subjects, apart from making them pi** easy ?

Competent teachers perhaps?

nesf

Gurgle wrote: »

Do people expect to finish college with any miscellaneous degree and walk straight into a great, interesting, well-paid job?

A big problem seems to be that people are under some delusion that employers hire their degrees and not them. A good degree mark can sometimes help you get an interview but it's not going to get you the job on its own etc.

Oilrig

nesf wrote: »

A big problem seems to be that people are under some delusion that employers hire their degrees and not them. A good degree mark can sometimes help you get an interview but it's not going to get you the job on its own etc.

Agreed. I hire for attitude, skills can be honed. Qualifications are taken into account.

I walked into a Public Service job a decade or so ago that demanded an MBA as a minimum. I had no MBA or anything like it, but through experience (and attitude) they believed I could get the job done. I got the job done and moved on.

Todays generation IMHO have many tit suckers unfortunately, got it handy and expect to continue to get it handy...

nesf

Oilrig wrote: »

Agreed. I hire for attitude, skills can be honed. Qualifications are taken into account.

I walked into a Public Service job a decade or so ago that demanded an MBA as a minimum. I had no MBA or anything like it, but through experience (and attitude) they believed I could get the job done. I got the job done and moved on.

Todays generation IMHO have many tit suckers unfortunately, got it handy and expect to continue to get it handy...

The issue for people is, with a decent amount of experience, not having a degree isn't going to hurt you that much and you can still get into interviews when your experience is good. If you're starting out though a good mark in a relevant degree can help open doors a bit and give you a chance to convince them to hire you leaving you get that experience.

Anyone walking out of college with a random degree expecting a good job to land on their lap deserves the rude awakening that awaits them. Life doesn't owe you anything etc.

djpbarry

jmayo wrote: »

There used to be bonus points for Honours Maths for some courses such as Engineering in some colleges years ago.

I believe there are still a few - I know DIT has at least one.

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe they should make them compulsory, like Irish, English and a foreign language was or is necessary for college entry ?

I'm not sure about that - as soon as you make something compulsory you'll turn kids off it. Although I suppose the numbers can't really get that much lower!

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe if you want to do medical, science, engineering or computers college courses then you must have at least two science subjects.

As things stand, any science or engineering degree (worth the paper they're written on) will have honours maths and one science subject as a minimum entry requirement; I think that's probably sufficient, although a second science subject certainly wouldn't do you any harm.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Very misleading as it is including all LC students, including those who didn't do those subjects but still may have secured an honours grade in completely different subjects.

I think that's precisely the point he was trying to convey:
"...Tony Donohue notes that only 7pc, 8pc and 23pc of the full Leaving Certificate cohort this year, secured an honours grade in higher level Physics, Chemistry and Biology respectively."
It's certainly the point that I was trying to convey, i.e., that there is a tiny number of LC students sitting honours maths and science exams.

The Corinthian

djpbarry wrote: »

I believe there are still a few - I know DIT has at least one.

An off twenty years ago when I did the LC (so I may be wrong), the UCD points system used to give a bonus point for a C grade in honours maths and an additional point for an A grade. So for most subjects D, C, B, A grades would get 2, 3, 4, 5 points respectively, but for honours maths the breakdown was 2, 4, 5, 7 points.

It's certainly the point that I was trying to convey, i.e., that there is a tiny number of LC students sitting honours maths and science exams.

Was that not always the case?

djpbarry

The Corinthian wrote: »

Was that not always the case?

Apparently not. According to a report in the Indo last August:

It is the 10th consecutive year the Leaving Cert results have highlighted the steep decline in the number of pupils taking higher-level maths.

Based on my own experience, I believe the explanation lies with the fact that kids are getting lazier (in general, not all of them). I gave grinds in LC maths for about 5 years and for the most part, the students were just not prepared to put the work in – they seem to think that the fact they are getting grinds will see them through, no extra effort required. I see it at University level too, where the students just want to know how to solve particular problems without having to understand exactly what it is they are doing, so they can just regurgitate in the exams without having to think for themselves.

partholon

well in fairness why should they bother?

most engineers that'll graduate will end up repairing stuff. not building it from scratch. my best mate never did honors maths at all, didnt stop him getting a very well paid job as an engineer and he got the same bog standard LC i did and went to DIT. ( I fecked off to do IT).

if you can do that why put more preasure on yourself. be a bit dumb to work your arse off for a qualification you dont need. particularly when an A in geography will push you over the edge pointwise to get the course you want just as handily

i havent a clue what the story is on bounus points nowadays. far as i knew they scrapped em back in the early 90s when they changed the intercert to the juniorcert. TBH i think that was stupid. one of the reasons i structured my subjects the way i did after the inter was to maximise the points i could get after the leaving and they were giving extra points for hons physics, applied maths and hons engineering.

wouldnt have done em otherwise.

bringing that back would be a good idea. otherwise i can see the status quo being maintained to get the maximium points. even in my day there were people doing engineering and home economics who wanted to do law

djpbarry

partholon wrote: »

most engineers that'll graduate will end up repairing stuff. not building it from scratch.

In fairness, that's entirely dependent on the individual and what they want to do themselves.

partholon wrote: »

if you can do that why put more preasure on yourself. be a bit dumb to work your arse off for a qualification you dont need. particularly when an A in geography will push you over the edge pointwise to get the course you want just as handily

Well, as has already been pointed out, for most honours degree programmes in science or (particularly) engineering, honours maths is a necessity.

helimachoptor

jmayo wrote: »

In the 1990s the government used education (and our number of graduates) as a way of attracting certain industries. During the real celtic tiger i.e. the IT/telecoms boom everyone and anyone was being converted into IT engineers/computer scientists with the result that some people working in the industry were being carried by the competent ones. Some people were not suited to the area and ended up being carried by others.

Nowadays the government is trotting out with this cra* that we are so well educated and ideally suited to be this knowledge economy (yeah we will all get jobs in financial services industry or designing software especially when in competition with thousands of low cost Indian graduates) becuase we have so many graduates.

Working in telecoms I know this is true but i'm only out of college a few years but even some more senior technical people I work with havent got a clue and I have to explain things to them. But then there are some really excellent people I've worked with, with those I turn into a sponge and try to learn from them.

The Indian graduates arent all that great tbh. We've got a good few in our company but apart from one guy whos a lot older than the rest they are pretty clueless. I really think its quantity over quality from India. I know colleagues from other companies view them in the same way.

The Corinthian wrote: »

For graduates yes as they will be considered institutionalised. It is generally advisable to get a masters later on in your career though as it can be beneficial at managerial level (the classic example being the MBA).

Agree with this, was gonna do a MSc in Project Management after my BSc in Comp Sci but thankfully I decided to go get a job and will do a Masters in the next 5 years when it will actually benefit me.

nesf wrote: »

A big problem seems to be that people are under some delusion that employers hire their degrees and not them. A good degree mark can sometimes help you get an interview but it's not going to get you the job on its own etc.

Personally I agree with this. A friend of mine had an Eng degree and got a job as a junior trader in London in front of guys with Masters etc mainly because he could talk the talk. I've advanced in my own career to a good level yes I have the technical skills due to my degree (but there are guys I work with much more technically gifted than me) but I also get things done for want of a better phrase. I'm comfortable with senior people and some of the other guys arent and that comes across in interviews. If you ot a 1st but your not confident in a interview there's a slim chance of you getting the job imho.

Oilrig wrote: »

Agreed. I hire for attitude, skills can be honed. Qualifications are taken into account.

I walked into a Public Service job a decade or so ago that demanded an MBA as a minimum. I had no MBA or anything like it, but through experience (and attitude) they believed I could get the job done. I got the job done and moved on.

Todays generation IMHO have many tit suckers unfortunately, got it handy and expect to continue to get it handy...

Agreed I hounded Tesco for my first job always worked hard to make myself better as the family never reallay had money when I was growing up. At one time during term I had 3 jobs! My bro is doing the same course in the same college as me but he expects everything to be handed to him and that he's going to walk into a job as soon as he leaves college. He's gonna be in for a shock!

nesf wrote: »

The issue for people is, with a decent amount of experience, not having a degree isn't going to hurt you that much and you can still get into interviews when your experience is good. If you're starting out though a good mark in a relevant degree can help open doors a bit and give you a chance to convince them to hire you leaving you get that experience.

Anyone walking out of college with a random degree expecting a good job to land on their lap deserves the rude awakening that awaits them. Life doesn't owe you anything etc.

Agree with this also, worked with a guy last year who got about 100 points in his LC in 1990 or so, most talented developer I've ever seen and earns a shed load.

Anyway rant over, i'll be back again tomorrow!

djpbarry

helimachoptor wrote: »

The Indian graduates arent all that great tbh. We've got a good few in our company but apart from one guy whos a lot older than the rest they are pretty clueless. I really think its quantity over quality from India. I know colleagues from other companies view them in the same way.

Let's not generalise - I work with some extremely talented individuals who all did their primary degrees in India.

Akrasia

Feelgood wrote: »

Well the majority of the worlds richest people didn't even go to college, let alone get a degree. Degrees don't hold the prestige that they used to. Its all about experience nowadays which makes a lot more sense anyway.

Except you need the degree to get the job to get the experience.


The problem is inflation in minimum qualifications. As more people get degrees, more and more jobs require degrees as a minimum application criteria, but then people spend so much time getting the degree that they don't have time to get the experience, so we end up with lots of experienced people without the necessary qualifications going back to college to get a degree and then out competing the new graduates who came straight from school (because they wouldn't have gotten a job without a degree)

It used to be junior cert was standard education, then it became leaving cert, then a diploma or certificate (with degrees for the professions) Now degrees are useless on their own, so people need Masters and Phds to compete for the limited number of high quality high paid jobs.

CerebralCortex

Akrasia wrote: »

Except you need the degree to get the job to get the experience.


The problem is inflation in minimum qualifications. As more people get degrees, more and more jobs require degrees as a minimum application criteria, but then people spend so much time getting the degree that they don't have time to get the experience, so we end up with lots of experienced people without the necessary qualifications going back to college to get a degree and then out competing the new graduates who came straight from school (because they wouldn't have gotten a job without a degree)

It used to be junior cert was standard education, then it became leaving cert, then a diploma or certificate (with degrees for the professions) Now degrees are useless on their own, so people need Masters and Phds to compete for the limited number of high quality high paid jobs.

I think though its all relative to the field and the quality of a degree. Some jobs actually need certain level of education in a field so that employee can actually do it, for example being versed in the language of C++. The experience would come then in how to best use your knowledge of C++ which as far as I know no one is taught at leaving cert level.

partholon

djpbarry wrote: »

In fairness, that's entirely dependent on the individual and what they want to do themselves.
Well, as has already been pointed out, for most honours degree programmes in science or (particularly) engineering, honours maths is a necessity.

thats not strictly true. like i said my mate never did hons maths yet he's gone back to college several time's through work to impove his qualifications. i cant even pronounce what he does, something to do with water purification systems for the pharma ind.

once your in the workplace full time college isnt an option.

in regards to your first point i reckon making massive amounts of wonga is pretty much most peoples main objective in what they want to do. hence the lack of take up in the sciences.

take alook at the points system as it stands. all students seem to want to do nowadays is public sector jobs like nursing (now harder to get into than computer science!), teaching and law. end of the day i think theres a deep rooted fear of private sector jobs, no matter how high class, being exported to india and china.

who can blame em hedging their bets.

The Corinthian

partholon wrote: »

take alook at the points system as it stands. all students seem to want to do nowadays is public sector jobs like nursing (now harder to get into than computer science!), teaching and law. end of the day i think theres a deep rooted fear of private sector jobs, no matter how high class, being exported to india and china.

Interesting observation. TBH, if people are looking to pick a vocational qualification then picking one that makes sense now or in a year is a bad move as you will not have the qualification for at least three years. The number of kids who chose IT related degrees in the late nineties only to find the dotCom had ended by the time they qualified was hilarious.

TBH, if you choose a vocation, choose one that you have an aptitude towards as the market will change beyond recognition anyway in years to come, making any specific choice moot.

People's careers evolve as they grow older, gain experience and see the market change. Specific experience may push you to specialize, for example (there are dangers in being too specialized however), and changes to the market may cause you to change your role (e.g. the response to outsourcing in your sector is to take up a more customer facing role). And of course, sometimes people change their career's completely (gradually by going into a parallel stream or in starting again from scratch).