Permanent ban. is it over the Top.??

Chong

Jesus H Christ that was a tough read.

Anyways I think my post quoted by Xavi6, summed up the beginning of the baiting y'day afternoon.

T4TF, your kinda inciting us United fans, on such a great day can you just leave it be. Let us enjoy our day , I know your not deliberately trying to incite us but we just want to enjoy the day that is in it, instead having petty rows.

Oh and never to miss an opportunity here is the link for my suggested Man U Supporters club forum for all you United fans.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055281186&page=2

Necronomicon

PSI wrote: »

So hold on are people making the point that T4TF is trolling but other people aren't.

Or are they making the point that T4TF shouldn't be allowed troll, but its ok for Des, Mr Alan, Archimedes and anyone else from a long list to do it?

No and no. Nobody is saying that T4TF shouldn't be allowed to troll and regular folk shouldn't. DesF got banned for trolling, admitted as much, we move on.

If T4TF is trolling, and I don't agree, then any sanction against him should be matched for all other users who I see having done the same.

Well I guess that's the issue, that we're in disagreement. I honestly don't see how you can defend some of his posts yesterday.

PSI wrote: »

Look people, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "lets have a lenient forum where we can have banter, except from the mod, because, you know, we don't like him and he's a mod...booooooo!!!"

Again, nobody is saying that.

When I saw his posts in the United thread yesterday I was annoyed. I ignored them, because I could see this happening and I didn't fancy a banning.

I have one question. Why choose the United thread? Surely he knew that he'd attract heat from United fans with those comments, why not at least use the match thread, or 'neutral ground' so to speak?

This was his first post:

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

So how much do you think the ref will be involved in Unted winning the league then ?

Looks like my auld paranormal instincts were spot on for this one. Congrats Man U. and congrats to the ref who ensured that it was not interesting as he should have sent off Scholes and Wigan should have had a Pen.

Coming into the Man United thread a few minutes after United won the league to suggest that they had the referee to thank, how is that not baiting?

After a few posts back and forth from users who took exception to his post and T4TF defending himself, he posted this:

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

bordering on abuse there Denis. And as for bitter, I do not see how quoting myself saying that the ref would have a lot to do with them winning the league after the ref had a lot to do with them winning the league is bitter. I have already congratulated ye on winning the league again, and rather than debate the points made Manc fans rather go on the auld abuse route :rolleyes:

Now surely if a United fan went into the Liverpool thread and posted such a generalisation it would be a cut and dry ban.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

are you serious Will, Man United have won the league and fair play but they did have a lot of help from the ref. And yet instead of reasoning it out, Manc fans seem to be blanking it and saying it is because I am not a Man U fan that I am reminding ye. shame really, well respected fans and all that :rolleyes:

Wow, another sarcastic jibe at United fans, what a shock.

Then the user adox posted addressing his points and saying why he thought T4TF was trolling. This was the last sentence in his post:

adox wrote: »

Again,mod or not, I cant help but feel you are deliberately trying to stir things up for the sake of it, and more the fool me in fact for bothering to reply.

To which T4TF replied:

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

adox wrote:

.......more the fool me .......

Agreed.

Wtf? Agree? With what? Is he agreeing with adox's point that he's trolling and adox shouldn't have bothered feeding him?

DesF wrote:

It's the nature in which he went about it, his intended outcome and the fallout he knew would happen.

This is the issue.

PSI wrote: »

Prove it.

We've all provided points, which even some impartial mods with no interest in soccer have said have some grounding.

GuanYin

rb_ie wrote: »

The soccer mods sound like nazis imo.

Really, in Politics I'm a PRC Commie

homerjay2005

lads and ladies, we are going nowhere. the last 4 or 5 pages have been the same. i think we should stop posting and leave this to the admins if they see it fit to carry on the discussion.

last thing we want is the soccer forum to be closed as was done before. its largely very well run but in my opinion, theres 2 many bannings.

now that is it, i have said my piece and will not say much more. i think we should ease off before it gets nasty and its moved to the thunderdome!

Rb

DesF wrote: »

There's no need to be stirring it like that tbh.

Most of them are fair.

"Most" eh? Not "All", eh?

Name and shame

kaizersoze1980

Deleted User wrote: »

post in helpdesk with a concise and polite thread.

QUOTE]

Done, I have posted in the helpdesk asking for an smod/admin to take a look at this thread.
I'm not posting anymore until such a time.
Good night gentlemen and lets all hope the soccer forum can return to its former glory

_blank_

PSI wrote: »

So the crux. You want me to take the opinion of a lot of United fans, who have a documented axe to grind as some sort of factual and impartial verdict of trolling that doesn't apply to anyone else on the forum?

Why didn't you say so? I'll get right on that.

Nobody is asking you to do anything.

Moderators are NOT the same as normal users on their forums. They can strive to be, but they, at the very least, shold strive to uphold the forum charter.

T4TF is seen as someone who is incapable of modding them. This is not something they licked off the ground, it's not some delusion.

kaizersoze1980

homerjay2005 wrote: »

lads and ladies, we are going nowhere. the last 4 or 5 pages have been the same. i think we should stop posting and leave this to the admins if they see it fit to carry on the discussion.

last thing we want is the soccer forum to be closed as was done before. its largely very well run but in my opinion, theres 2 many bannings.

now that is it, i have said my piece and will not say much more. i think we should ease off before it gets nasty and its moved to the thunderdome!

I have posted in helpdesk asking for an admin to look into it.
Im leaving it at that. Everything has been said. Im not going to piss off the admins with posting the same thing over and over.

Chong

homerjay2005 wrote: »

lads and ladies, we are going nowhere. the last 4 or 5 pages have been the same. i think we should stop posting and leave this to the admins if they see it fit to carry on the discussion.

last thing we want is the soccer forum to be closed as was done before. its largely very well run but in my opinion, theres 2 many bannings.

now that is it, i have said my piece and will not say much more. i think we should ease off before it gets nasty and its moved to the thunderdome!

I say BRING BACK GANDALF.

Man he was a legend on the soccer forums modding, I miss him, the ol Arsenal Goon.

Time Magazine

PSI wrote: »

With due respect, that is not how we run the forum and it is not the type of forum I will be part of.

The rules are for everyone and we follow them the same way or not at all.

If someone tells me the forum runs differently, I'm gone.

My posts are not a personal attack on you nor T4TF. To be honest, I skipped to the last page, I don't know exactly what's going on. This leaves me as somewhat uninformed but certainly unbiased. I've no axe to grind with any of the Soccer mods.

But I disagree with your sentiment. There are posts that break the rules, fine. There are non-offensive posts, fine. Then there's the itty-bitty cheeky posts.

I don't post them on my fora.

GuanYin

rb_ie wrote: »

"Most" eh? Not "All", eh?

Name and shame

ROFLOL

I feedback.

leninbenjamin

PSI wrote: »

Really, in Politics I'm a PRC Commie

now, now that's not true. you also have a biased anti-PRC liberal alter ego iirc.

KevIRL

Necromomicon wrote: »

No and no. Nobody is saying that T4TF shouldn't be allowed to troll and regular folk shouldn't. DesF got banned for trolling, admitted as much, we move on.


Well I guess that's the issue, that we're in disagreement. I honestly don't see how you can defend some of his posts yesterday.


Again, nobody is saying that.

When I saw his posts in the United thread yesterday I was annoyed. I ignored them, because I could see this happening and I didn't fancy a banning.

I have one question. Why choose the United thread? Surely he knew that he'd attract heat from United fans with those comments, why not at least use the match thread, or 'neutral ground' so to speak?

This was his first post:



Coming into the Man United thread a few minutes after United won the league to suggest that they had the referee to thank, how is that not baiting?

After a few posts back and forth from users who took exception to his post and T4TF defending himself, he posted this:


Now surely if a United fan went into the Liverpool thread and posted such a generalisation it would be a cut and dry ban.


Wow, another sarcastic jibe at United fans, what a shock.

Then the user adox posted addressing his points and saying why he thought T4TF was trolling. This was the last sentence in his post:



To which T4TF replied:


Wtf? Agree? With what? Is he agreeing with adox's point that he's trolling and adox shouldn't have bothered feeding him?


This is the issue.


We've all provided points, which even some impartial mods with no interest in soccer have said have some grounding.

This is a FANTASTIC post in terms of this thread, it sums up why I felt yesterday that TFTF was way out of line in his consitant and continued baiting.

Well done Necromomicon

Loomis

PSI wrote: »

Trolling in the sense that DesF was banned for deliberately inciting trouble not for giving an unwelcome opinion....

As many many people have said; make your point all you want. It's the manner in which T4TF made his point. Something the people supporting him have repeatedly ignored as far as I can see by just repeating 'he was only making a point' rather than addressing how he was making his point. Which is the actual issue.

PSI wrote: »

Honestly I don't see "a lot of other people" I see people from a small pool of users who are known to have an axe to grind.

This is how I see things:

T4TF is not universally adored by United fans. Most of this is down to the HJ2005 (who I should be catbanned right now but isn't) and a result of HJ2005 being too proud and not having enough common sense to know where and how to pick his battles.

This isn't an attack on you as you've been mostly fair and helpful in your posts here for far but I think this is a lazy comment in my opinion. For one it's nowhere near true. It's a gross generalization and you have no way of knowing if everyone with a negative comment directed at T4TF's behaviour has conflict with him. I seriously doubt you checked and noted every user and tried remembering if they had a problem with him let alone found one for ever situation. The comment translates to 'the only people are complaining are known trouble makers/people with personal problems with T4TF/bitter users who've already received bans. I can assure you I have no issue with T4TF. And I agree 100% with what has been said about his behaviour. Will you consider my post more than others you've read? Is it anymore valid because I don't have a personal gripe with him? Taking your comment on board it should do as it avoids your criteria for apparent dismissal.
I read the soccer forum far more than I post and I doubt you recognize my username let alone have examples of an 'axe to grind' between me and T4TF. Due to that your comment irritated me a lot. Like I said you've been very helpful and fair here but that comment comes off as an attempt to sweep a largely held opinion under the carpet. Which fuels people already antagonized annoyance. It is not a 'small pool' of people either as far as I can see. There are people who feel aggrieved for being banned, people who accept their ban but cite baiting as a cause, there are people with no issue with the mod in question whatsoever like myself, there are mods of other fora. You dimissed everyone of them with your sweeping statement and I can see and share the frustration of many a poster here. It's all well and good saying use the proper channels to make complaints etc but when that is followed, as it has been here, it gets fobbed off to a large degree. I read the pages in question today and mod or not I could see his behaviour was the pinnacle of baiting. I genuinely cannot see how you or anyone can see it as anything other than that. And that, along with the dismissal of users opinions so easily, is the cause of my frustration.
You and other mods have stated how you do not enjoy banning people which I believe and you say the contribution suffers for it but rules are rules. If that is the case why alienate more users to defend a mod whose defense I ponder with great incredulity? Dismiss 'the small pool' as annoyed Utd fans if you want but you can't ignore the fact it is there and is bad for the forum. These users, along with the banned users, contribute an escalating number of people less likely to use the forum because of this.
Again this isn't an attack on you, a few people have parroted about a user's right to give an opinion while ignoring the fact of people pointing out it is the manner in which one goes about putting their opinion across, I just happened to use your quote. So no offense intended. But as I said the circles that people are being made run in has left me jaded of the topic at this stage so I won't be posting again. Sorry for the long post.

_blank_

rb_ie wrote: »

"Most" eh? Not "All", eh?

Name and shame

lol

About this "axe to grind".

I suppose I have, HJ probably has it, but not many of the other posters who are agreeing with the points raised would have.

So, where is that coming from?

GuanYin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Looks like my auld paranormal instincts were spot on for this one. Congrats Man U. and congrats to the ref who ensured that it was not interesting as he should have sent off Scholes and Wigan should have had a Pen.

This is the post that started the United fans reacting.

There is nothing wrong with this post in ANY definition of the rules. Noone anywhere would get so much as a warning for this on soccer. In fact, had I been around, I may have posted the same thing.

The reaction to that post is telling in terms of the witchhunt that this has now become.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

now, now that's not true. you also have a biased anti-PRC liberal alter ego iirc.

Huh? I meant that is how I'm portrayed, not how I am.

alter-ego?

Thanx 4 The Fish

DesF wrote: »

And, what's even more shameful is the way T4TF is letting psi take the flak in this thread.

Yeah that's what it is alright Des :rolleyes: I never expected a feedback thread and was just looking around when I spotted this. I does take a long time to read this stuff you know and to take on board. The fact that you and some of your cronies are right up at the front does not surprise me TBH and you repeating your point again and again and again on this thread along with the banned is surely exactly the same thing as I did in the United thread.

Would you consider then that you are trolling this thread or are you trying to make the point again because you think somebody is not getting what you are trying to say ? You see I did not think I was trolling yesterday and I also never thought I was being sly or any of the other things I have been called on this thread, I was of course a bit annoyed when the borderline abuse came on but I felt that I reacted reasonably well in the face of it.

I did not retaliate, I did not break the rules of the forum, I addressed the issues raised to me and then reiterated the point originally made. The fact that some people are not able to debate without resorting to abuse is hardly my problem, the fact that I was posting what I felt was a valid point and one agreed by some of the Man U fans on the thread was justification enough, or so I thought. Is there to be dealt with on helpdesk now anyway so that's that ain't it.

And just a quick quote from that thread :-

Willstev wrote:

I know your not deliberately trying to incite us

.

Anyway back to the original question ban yes, perm no, fixed already yes.

KevIRL

PSI you have answered well on this thread in fairness to you.

I can only imagine the soccer forum is a total nightmare to mod.

However I ask you to read Necromomicon's post and the examples highlighted. Surely these examples are trolling/baiting or at the very very ery least not mod like behaviour?

Chong

PSI wrote: »

This is the post that started the United fans reacting.

There is nothing wrong with this post in ANY definition of the rules. Noone anywhere would get so much as a warning for this on soccer. In fact, had I been around, I may have posted the same thing.

The reaction to that post is telling in terms of the witchhunt that this has now become.





Huh? I meant that is how I'm portrayed, not how I am.

alter-ego?

The post seemed genuine but the fact of the matter PSI T4TF continued and continued baiting after that post.

kaizersoze1980

PSI wrote: »

This is the post that started the United fans reacting.

There is nothing wrong with this post in ANY definition of the rules. Noone anywhere would get so much as a warning for this on soccer. In fact, had I been around, I may have posted the same thing.




QUOTE]

Im sorry PSI, but thats rubbish.
His post was borderline trolling, coming so soon as it did after the final whistle.
But you are TOTALLY IGNORING the fact that he continued posting about this even after 5 people had asked him to leave it out.

kaizersoze1980

Willstev wrote: »

The post seemed genuine but the fact of the matter PSI T4TF continued and continued baiting after that post.

exactly. that is the issue. and PSI is refusing to acknowledge it.

Thanx 4 The Fish

DesF wrote: »

lol

About this "axe to grind".

I suppose I have, HJ probably has it, but not many of the other posters who are agreeing with the points raised would have.

So, where is that coming from?

Well you have as you have already admitted, your good buddy homerjay has, I suppose anybody who has ever been banned with an AIG shirt has, regardless of whether I banned them or not.

~Rebel~

Right folks.

We've come a long way in this discussion, and here's my objective thinking as a neutral who's been observing.

T4TF was acting the maggot, but did so in a way that's been done a million times before and is technically not against the charter. There is also nothing concrete saying acting the maggot is worse if your a Mod. (its fairly common sense but nothing official).

Therefore, nought could really be done to T4TF at the moment as any rules put in place now can't really be enacted retrospectively.

However; What might stop this problem in the future is if some sort of rule were put in place that inciteful comments by a mod are unacceptable.

All IMO of course.

Chong

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Yeah that's what it is alright Des :rolleyes: I never expected a feedback thread and was just looking around when I spotted this. I does take a long time to read this stuff you know and to take on board. The fact that you and some of your cronies are right up at the front does not surprise me TBH and you repeating your point again and again and again on this thread along with the banned is surely exactly the same thing as I did in the United thread.

Would you consider then that you are trolling this thread or are you trying to make the point again because you think somebody is not getting what you are trying to say ? You see I did not think I was trolling yesterday and I also never thought I was being sly or any of the other things I have been called on this thread, I was of course a bit annoyed when the borderline abuse came on but I felt that I reacted reasonably well in the face of it.

I did not retaliate, I did not break the rules of the forum, I addressed the issues raised to me and then reiterated the point originally made. The fact that some people are not able to debate without resorting to abuse is hardly my problem, the fact that I was posting what I felt was a valid point and one agreed by some of the Man U fans on the thread was justification enough, or so I thought. Is there to be dealt with on helpdesk now anyway so that's that ain't it.

And just a quick quote from that thread :-
.

Anyway back to the original question ban yes, perm no, fixed already yes.

Yes T4TF surely you can admit to baiting fans throughout the night, when I said what I said, coming on the forum taking on united fans all night you knew this would occur.

As result of our PM's you knew this was happening.

leninbenjamin

PSI wrote: »

Huh? I meant that is how I'm portrayed, not how I am.

alter-ego?

bah. i was going back to one of the Tibetan/Olympic threads where on the same pages you were attacked by some of the pro-Tibet posters and pro-Chinese posters... failed attempt at humour.

_blank_

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

The fact that you and some of your cronies are right up at the front does not surprise me TBH

Nice.

I wonder if you'll answer me a question.

What is your actual problem with me?

kaizersoze1980

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

The fact that you and some of your cronies are right up at the front does not surprise me TBH and you repeating your point again and again and again on this thread along with the banned is surely exactly the same thing as I did in the United thread.

Would you consider then that you are trolling this thread or are you trying to make the point again because you think somebody is not getting what you are trying to say ? .

The fact of the matter is you were doing it in your own forum.

We do not mod the feedback forum

Thanx 4 The Fish

Willstev wrote: »

Yes T4TF surely you can admit to baiting fans throughout the night, when I said what I said, coming on the forum taking on united fans all night you knew this would occur.

As result of our PM's you knew this was happening.

Really I did not Will, if I had then I could have banned more than one last night if I was planning a trollybanfest. Maybe I am more stupid than Des gives me credit for.

Thanx 4 The Fish

DesF wrote: »

Nice.

I wonder if you'll answer me a question.

What is your actual problem with me?

None Des. Never have. I was just not surprised.

_blank_

DesF wrote: »

He is not an idiot.

...