Combined emergency services

Eru

Considering theres threads about slow reaction times, lack of co-operation etc I was wondering if people think a combined command and control service would be a good idea?

Not just when dialling 999 but taking and logging calls and dispatching calls. Could easily be staffed by civilians as well.

Fyr.Fytr

Yes and no, 3 main emergency services doing 3 separate jobs (bar dfb of course).

So each are different in their own way, would combined C&C make a big difference??

As for lack of co-op think more join exercises need to be arranged and each service informed of the others duties and roles at certain incidents so as to try alleviate a them-v-us mentality and realise your all working for the common good.

I'm sure it happens where a guard is getting his ear chewed off for traffic congestion as a result of a crash, but the guard needs to know that traffic must be controlled for the safety of all those working at the crash site, including other ES staff patients etc.

Same as other services need to know the road should be open asap, so as long as they dont get thick at the guard for checking to see if he can open the road again.

Hope that makes sense, not sure if its the best example.


One stickler I know of is that under the fire brigades act, with fire brigade being in charge of a major emergency

MCMLXXXIII

It sounds like it should be a good idea, but it could backfire.

With one command centre, one thing could happen and put the whole area out. If the electricity fails, it can temporarily put all emergency services out. If there is a traffic accident, there are a lot more people calling on their mobiles, which could clog up the lines, compared to one family that is trying to call about their house that is on fire. It's not fair that the traffic accident blocking traffic would get more calls than the house that's on fire.

I'm all about consolidation, but we can't skimp out. The money would need to be invested, and the people would need to be properly trained...in all areas.

remmurts

Combined "Incident Command System" is in place all over the world and works reasonably well.

Combined Command and Control centers/dispatch is very common in the US and works very well.

However, in the US, the emergency services (Police/Fire/EMS) will normally all work for the local municipality. In Ireland, the police are national, EMS is regional, and fire service is city or county based.

Until the inevitable pissing contest politics could be worked out, don't expect to see anything "combined" in the near future, because nobody is working off the same page.

Eru

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

As for lack of co-op think more join exercises need to be arranged and each service informed of the others duties and roles at certain incidents so as to try alleviate a them-v-us mentality and realise your all working for the common good.

When I say co-operation I mean when dfb require us or we require them it requires a phonecall and new call being dispatched etc. If it was combined it would only require a radio call to dispatch to get assistance.

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

One stickler I know of is that under the fire brigades act, with fire brigade being in charge of a major emergency

For most emergencies this would make sense as life comes first but common sense would (I hope) prevail in solving any problems experienced. At least on the ground it would whatever arguements management are having

Paulzx

Closest thing to combined at the moment is the DFB control which takes both Fire and Ambo calls for Dublin. Not exactly what your talking about as they're not separate services. Works well for us as we automatically turn out a fire appliance with an ambo to serious ambo calls e.g cardiac arrest, shootings etc. This gives valuable extra hands on scene.

Fair play to rural ambo crews who are stuck on their own in the middle of nowhere


Inter agency politics will never allow fully combined control rooms.

I certainly don't agree with civilianizing controls for reasons that are obvious to anyone working in emergency services

sunnyjim

One thing Paul, don't HSE have their own Ambulance Controllers and Control Rooms? I remember they had a big recruitment campaign this time last year for the position.

How is it done in America?

Eru

Paulzx wrote: »

I certainly don't agree with civilianizing controls for reasons that are obvious to anyone working in emergency services

I work in emergency services and I dont have a problem with this nor do I feel its an area that requires police, fire or paramedic training.

Paulzx

ok, i'll put this more bluntly. Do you want to see valuable jobs transferred over to private companies paying their staff crap wages? If your answer to this is yes then we are on opposite sides of the fence. And i am certainly not a socialist, union radical who can't see the wood for the trees.


I can also from a DFB point of view say there is huge advantages having a firefighter taking calls who has worked on the ground and knows exactly what he's sending appliances to. He can make judgements on experience aswell as what the PDA is throwing up on the computer screen

Fyr.Fytr

Also give medical instructions over the phone, cpr etc

Paulzx

That is done quite often by non medically trained dispatchers who are trained to use prompts on their computer screen. Obviously, it is still an advantage if the calltaker has actually carried out CPR themselves before and has medical training

sunnyjim

Paulzx wrote: »

ok, i'll put this more bluntly. Do you want to see valuable jobs transferred over to private companies paying their staff crap wages? If your answer to this is yes then we are on opposite sides of the fence. And i am certainly not a socialist, union radical who can't see the wood for the trees.


I can also from a DFB point of view say there is huge advantages having a firefighter taking calls who has worked on the ground and knows exactly what he's sending appliances to. He can make judgements on experience aswell as what the PDA is throwing up on the computer screen

There's nothing to stop the theoretical civilians from having 1 of each of the main services present, to be someone with expertise from each area.

I don't see the point of having to pay great wages anyway. It's not a skilled job. It's someone taking down details and passing them onto a relevent authority.

Paulzx

sunnyjim wrote: »

It's not a skilled job.

You obviously know absolutely nothing about how an emergency services control room operates with a statement like that. I can only comment on what i know which is the DFB control ( Eastern Regional Control Center ). If you seen that place at 1.30am on a Saturday night you might change your tone.

Constant stream of 999 calls. Fire appliances being sent all over the place. Ambulance calls being queued. Radio messages non stop. Yeah, sure we'll just drag someone in off the street to answer the phone. All you have to do is pick it up!!!

eroo

Paulzx wrote: »

ok, i'll put this more bluntly. Do you want to see valuable jobs transferred over to private companies paying their staff crap wages? If your answer to this is yes then we are on opposite sides of the fence. And i am certainly not a socialist, union radical who can't see the wood for the trees.


I can also from a DFB point of view say there is huge advantages having a firefighter taking calls who has worked on the ground and knows exactly what he's sending appliances to. He can make judgements on experience aswell as what the PDA is throwing up on the computer screen

But that means holding up Gardai,firefighters and EMT's,does it not?Those people would be needed more so in their respective roles.Civilian staff could easily be recruited and vetted to work as part of a private company or why not attach them to GS,Fire Service and EMS as civilan workers?GS do it with the Press Office etc.It could work.

Tango Alpha 51

Karlito has a valid point. Having been in the US, I've seen first hand how joint comms/command work on a daily basis. Just a small point for the OP, the HSE Ambulance Service went to a national service like the Gardai 3yrs ago hence the fact that the majority of the ambulance fleet now sport KE registrations no matter where you are in the country (the odd exception is if an older vehicle is in use).
Hopefully with the new digitial system coming on line, it will mean that it will be easier for us to talk to the gardai, fire service etc.

In general, we as in the fulltime emergency services do understand what each other's role is. Paulzx also raises a valid point about control rooms being busy but again I would point out that the majority of Comms rooms in the states are manned by civilians with the appropriate oversight by trained staff from the relevant agency. It shouldn't take 4 or 5 trained paramedics to work a control room where 4 civilians could do the same job with a paramedic "officer" in charge. I would also point out that I have worked the control room.

A joint comms rooms with the appropriate LEO,EMS & FS officer in charge would go along way to improving things. But as op's have stated it would need proper investment.

Sunnijim,
I think you should withdraw your statement about it not being a skilled job to work in a control room as that is an affront to all members of the ES who work their respective CAD rooms

sunnyjim

Constant stream of 999 calls. Fire appliances being sent all over the place. Ambulance calls being queued. Radio messages non stop. Yeah, sure we'll just drag someone in off the street to answer the phone. All you have to do is pick it up!!!

People can be trained to do that. I know that dispatchers in the US do well for themselves, and do quite a bit of training, but surely it wouldn't take as long to train someone in on how to function efficiently in a control room. And it frees up Gardai, Firemen and Paramedics.

Paulzx

Yet again i'll only answer for the fire service.

If anybody here thinks that civilianizing the DFB control room is going to put more motors on the road they are living in cloud cuckoo land. We operate off a minimum manning level which means day and night 365 days of the year we have the exact same number of seats to fill on appliances. The control room is an addition to this and also has a manning level

Civilanizing these positions will completely do away with these jobs for the DFB. They will not be deployed elsewhere as increased manning. Read my lips, no extra appliances etc. The overall strenght of DFB will decrease as a consequence and the control will not be run any more efficiently.

I do not know how other services run their control and cannot speak for them.

Fyr.Fytr

I was just about to say that paul, look at the cuffuffle about putting a full time motor in 13, 20 years that took, as for the ambulance...dont mention the war.

If they brought in civvys dfb staff would just be phased out as they retire, meaning a loss of jobs.

MCMLXXXIII

sunnyjim wrote: »

...
How is it done in America?

I moved to the US as a teen, so I'm not entirely sure as to how it works back home, but I know that the US emergency (911) service is operated by combined city/county governments. The employees are trained and certified in basic services such as CPR, and have (less) people on staff for situations like delivering a baby over the phone, etc. They are by no means loaded with money, but they make a decent living.

When you call, it asks you to press 1 for Emergency, or 2 for non-emergency, and it automatically directs your call to the proper location based on your needs and where you are calling from – land lines give the address and your mobile hooks in to the National GPS, so they know where you are. If you want State Police, rather than local, they just transfer you to the state service (it takes about 5 seconds).

After that, you tell them the problem, and it’s off to the city services. The emergency service is done, and moves on to the next call. The rest depends on how good (or bad) (or busy) the Police (public), Fire (usually public, rarely private), or Ambulance (usually a private company) services are.

I live in a pretty quiet city, it has no police and only has a full fire department during the daytime. Ambulances are abundant, but expensive (about $400). Fire coverage is on a volunteer system, so response time doubles at night. Police services are covered by the county, so there is only one Sherriff’s Department in my city of 36 square miles and 90,000 people. But like I said, it’s quiet, and not much more is needed.

A city nearby city is very small, with A LOT of old money, and the response times are around 45 seconds. Next to that, is a large city where you are lucky if anyone shows up in an hour. Both of those cities are in the same county, so the 911 service is good in both areas. The problem here is the cities’ actual individual services.

Eru

Comm room would not need to be privatised it could be operated by civil servants. I should also point out that your looking for more firemen and ambulance crew across the country. The Garda has already initiated civilianisation and lots of Gardai have been transfered from offices.

The Garda system automatically prioritises calls and the controller can easily see what calls are there, which needs urgent response and what units are available and where.

he doesnt need any medical training, restraint or legal knowledge to do it. Our dispatch doesnt and wont tell us what to do or how. All he needs is communication and IT knowledge which could easily be provided wihtin a 1 or 2 week course compared to the months of training we go through.
Lets also remember that when you dial 999 you need to say what service and where so your going though 1 person before you get to the Garda or ambulance. That person then inputs your call and the pc then transfers it too the relevent controller for dispatch.

eroo

Btw,are the DFB the only fire service in the fecking country or what??:eek:;)

sunnyjim

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

I was just about to say that paul, look at the cuffuffle about putting a full time motor in 13, 20 years that took, as for the ambulance...dont mention the war.

If they brought in civvys dfb staff would just be phased out as they retire, meaning a loss of jobs.

What about coinciding an expansion or opening of a new station with that of privatising the Control Room?

Comm room would not need to be privatised it could be operated by civil servants. I should also point out that your looking for more firemen and ambulance crew across the country. The Garda has already initiated civilianisation and lots of Gardai have been transfered from offices.

Privatisation would surely be better, no? Civil Service means it takes ages for anything to be changed, for new procedures to be brought in, problems when the union starts striking. Not to mention 8 hours days inclusing their 3 breaks!

Fyr.Fytr

sunnyjim wrote: »

What about coinciding an expansion or opening of a new station with that of privatising the Control Room?



Privatisation would surely be better, no? Civil Service means it takes ages for anything to be changed, for new procedures to be brought in, problems when the union starts striking. Not to mention 8 hours days inclusing their 3 breaks!

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There was plans to put a fire station in the new adamstown development, but alas the penny pinchers decided not to bother, theyed rater send motors from Tallaght and Dolphins Barn.

Hope you can see logic in that, I cant.

Oh and when 13 became full time they closed Malahide, go figure.

sunnyjim

Just a thought, but most people reading this mightn't be able to follow this thread if ye are calling stations by their numbers... Why not just call it Swords etc.

Fyr.Fytr

Sorry yea, force of habit.

Eru

sunnyjim wrote: »

Privatisation would surely be better, no? Civil Service means it takes ages for anything to be changed, for new procedures to be brought in, problems when the union starts striking. Not to mention 8 hours days inclusing their 3 breaks!

Depends I suppose, pros and cons to both arguements but I think with civil servants it would be still be a state function operated by state employees and for this function a little more relaible with less staff changeover.

Its civil servants that are taking over a lot of office work within the Gardai

Tango Alpha 51

Karlito,
Your point about putting extra bodies on the street from an N.A.S. point of view is flawed. We have a set number of Whole Time Employees (WTE's) within the service. There is already talk of closing some N.A.S. control & communication centres around the country. Most of the people working in these centres will be moved to other areas of the HSE (not neccessarily the N.A.S.) which won't result in an increase of staff for us. Can't talk about the DFB or the CAMP centres for the F&R around the rest of the country.

Sunnijim,
Your comment about breaks again is an affront to everyone working fulltime in the ES. I can assure you for a start we in the NAS in my area work 12hr shifts & we're lucky to get a break for a coffee let alone the 3 breaks that the private sector get during their working day. Again I ask you to either withdraw the remark or else refrain from commenting on something you obviously know nothing about.

Paulzx

sunnyjim wrote: »

Privatisation would surely be better, no? Civil Service means it takes ages for anything to be changed, for new procedures to be brought in, problems when the union starts striking. Not to mention 8 hours days inclusing their 3 breaks!

So i presume there isn't one private sector employee in the country who works an eight hour shift and gets his statutary breaks. They're all flogged 24hrs a day for no pay. what a ridiculous comment

There hasn't been a strike in dfb since 1988 and that was over manning levels. There has been huge change and upskilling in my job. We are quite happy to do it as it increases services to the public. However i won't accept people who don't know what there talking about constantly giving out about the public services as a whole. When i arrive at someones house at 3 in the morning and flames coming out the the front door to meet me the owner doesn't care about how many breaks i get.


There are many areas of the public services that need improvement. The problem is that corporate economists with their own agenda won't accept the areas that have improved. Change for changes sake makes no sense. Concentrate on whats bad and do what needs to be done. Whatever is good leave well enough alone

Tango Alpha 51

Paulzx wrote: »

TThere has been huge change and upskilling in my job. We are quite happy to do it as it increases services to the public. However i won't accept people who don't know what there talking about constantly giving out about the public services as a whole.

Totally agree with you Paul. Likewise with ourselves in the NAS, there has been massive changes & more are to come.

sunnyjim

Don't start taking this personally Paul. No one is slating the DFB, or even coming close to it.

So i presume there isn't one private sector employee in the country who works an eight hour shift and gets his statutary breaks. They're all flogged 24hrs a day for no pay. what a ridiculous comment

No, but it's well known what works and what doesn't. It doesn't take a genius to work out why some civil servant admin types do **** all, when compared to their private counterparts.

Paulzx

I'm not taking anything personally. I am simply debating against a point of view that i completely disagree with

sunnyjim wrote: »

No, but it's well known what works and what doesn't. It doesn't take a genius to work out why some civil servant admin types do **** all, when compared to their private counterparts.

Explain for me. I'm no genius. What works and what doesn't

Eru

Lads,
Try to remember that firemen, Gardai, prisons etc are NOT civil servants.

Civil servants have a seperate recruitment system and are for office jobs within state bodies. And yes, they do get 3 breaks per day which includes 15 minutes coffee break in the morning and afternoon. Private workers dont get that but neither do any of the previously mentioned jobs.

Paulzx

"
"The general rule on breaks is that you are entitled to a break of 15 minutes after a 4 ½ hour work period and a further break of 15 minutes after a 6 hour work period. There is no entitlement to be paid during these breaks."

Copied from the Citizens information on the Working Time Act. Only exemptions are Gardai and Defence Forces. Don't see mention of private sector employees. in other words you have legal entitlment to breaks. Surprise, surprise!!!

Eru

Paul,
Try to take a deap breath mate. Im merely pointing out what actually takes place having worked in the private sector and knowing civil servants.

No one stated that civil servants are legally entitled to those breaks or that the private sector dont get any breaks but remember that an hour for lunch isnt a legal requirement but most get it.

Paulzx

Don't need to take a deep breath. Pulse hasn't gone over 60 yet:D.

Karlito, I've also worked in the private sector before. I also have plenty of friends who work in the private sector. There are as many wasters working in big multinationals as in the public sector. As least i'm willing to admit we've wasters in the public sector. But its not everyone. It just annoys me when the old mantra of public sector-bad, private sector-good gets trotted out.

Ok, no more discussion along this route. Back to the original question