Should Turkey join the EU?

sink

The Queen of England is in Turkey on a state visit and she reiterated her countries support for Turkey to eventually become a member of the EU. I support this view but would be interested to hear other peoples viewpoints from both sides of the discussion. Please be specific, no vague references to Turkey not belonging to Europe, if you feel that way explain why. I believe Turkey has great potential. It is a west leaning, secular, democratic, free market orientated country with a fast growing economy. It's amazingly progressive for an Islamic country.

Turkey's economy grew by 7.4% per year from 2002 - 2007, that's faster than many of the new EU countries with a population that far exceeds any. It's GDP per capita is higher than 6 of the current EU states according to the IMF. It's hasn't always been rosy, in recent history there were several sharp declines in Turkeys economic output. EU membership should help stabilise the Turkish economy against such shocks in the future as it will guarantee access to the worlds largest market. It's deficit and inflation have been known to get out of control, the strict rules of the EMU should also bring this under control. Obviously Turkey would have to reform many parts of it's economy in order to qualify for EU membership. It's is fully capable of doing so, all it requires is political will and capital. It is geographically close to many counties with lots of natural resources, and it's historic ties with these counties would help make the EU their preferred trading partner. This of course would increase energy security something which Europe desperately needs.

However my main argument for Turkey joining the EU is not economic but political. Turkey has a unique culture which is a blend of eastern and western. It is a crossroads to the middle east. By becoming closer to Turkey I believe it will dispel many doubts and scepticism many westerners have about the Turks and by extension Muslims. The more people know and understand the less fearful the become. Turkey's voice as part of the EU will give the EU huge clout when it comes to dealing with problems in the region. It will be able to advice and temper the EU providing more knowledge and wisdom on foreign policy. It also has an impressive military and is the second largest member of NATO, so it more than capable of providing it's own security and would enhance Europe's ability to intervene in a Mid-East war. A war which is looking ever more likely.

Human rights and freedom of speech and expression still have a long way to go. It is making progress but more slowly than many would like. It has shown the willingness to reform, it realises it will have to have equivalent human rights to current EU members. It doesn't help that many EU countries are very unsupportive of Turkeys accession bid, even if it fully meets all the requirements there are no guarantees of it being allowed in. Turkish politicians and the public are becoming ever more apathetic or even hostile towards the EU and I can understand why. This is slowing down the pace of reforms and might eventually turn Turkey against the EU.

I cannot see the logic behind the argument that just because Turkey is not entirely in Europe it should not be allowed in the EU. Cyprus is not one bit geographically in Europe and it was allowed enter. Georgia which is even further away does not seem to garner as much hostility from current EU members in it's ambition to join the EU. Maybe it is because it is a Muslim country that France, Austria and others object to it becoming a full member. However Bosnia, Albania and other Balkan states have Muslim majorities and significant minorities and they don't seem to come up against as much scepticism and hostility. Scepticism doesn't seem to stem directly from the politicians themselves but rather from the public. This leads me to believe that it is caused by some form of xenophobia which is disappointing. I thought the majority of Europeans had put all that crap behind them.

ixtlan

Excellent post.

I agree pretty much with this, except your comments about "enhance Europe's ability to intervene in a Mid-East war. A war which is looking ever more likely." Surely Turkey's role would be to try prevent such an event? Also, for the sake of Euro-skeptics it's important to note that the EU is unlikely to ever get involved in any such war, though NATO members may, just as they might now. Mostly likely the EU would be an important diplomatic force for global peace.

Bringing Turkey into the EU will be a painful process for them and us, and will not come about quickly. Also Lisbon will not affect that one way or the other.

Ix.

sink

My point about a possible war in the middle east is it will cause devestation across the world, the oil price will go trough the roof and food prices are high enough as it is. Europe & America as well as China, India and other developing nations could not let Iran & Syria invade their neighbours and destabilise the region. The cost to the world economy would be to high. With Turkey as an even closer ally, due to it's close proximity to the region it would have a stabilising effect and war would be less likely. I'm not advocating any kind of pre-emptive action, just the knowlege that there is a massive force close by to intervene should anything kick off will be a huge reason for Iran & Syria to stay their hand.

The Kurdish issue is the main stumbling block as I see it. The Turkish tactics being employed are never going to work. Developing the eastern regions and providing oppourtunities to the Kuds is the only way towards proggress. We can look at NI for inspiration, the troubles were not solved by military intevention they were solved through dialogue and improving civil rights. Cyprus is not a huge problem anymore as both sides seem willing to compromise, the EU just needs to keep up pressure to push them into to doing so. It will take a few years, perhaps a decade but by the time Turkey is ready to join Cyprus will be re-united.

djpbarry

sink,

I agree with your sentiments, for the most part; if they meet the accession criteria set out by the EU, I see no reason why Turkey should not be allowed to join. However, I fear it may never happen, largely due to the fact (that you alluded to) that a large chunk of the EU's population do not want them in.

You may also be interested in a couple of past threads on the subject in the Politics forum:

EU Turkish Issue?

Youtube video of mob in turkey

WooPeeA

NO for Turkey in EU on my side. Why? 6 simple answers:



1.
First problem with Turkey is huge population of illegal immigrants from Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Iran. That wouldn't be a big deal in the 1990's, but after 9/11 we must be more careful in that case.



2.
They are not in Europe. And Yes it is important, however not geographical distance is important here but cultural and mental. Turkey has more than 70.500.000. Only Germany will have more votes in Bruxelles. I'm afraid that they're gonna veto every new law that is against Islam.. Not acceptable!



3.
Death penalty. EU is against.



4.
Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus as country. They have imposed embargo on them. Cyprus planes are not allowed in Turkey etc..

Cyprus is democratic, independent country recognized by every country in the world, except Turkey. Cyprus is also EU member state.

The worst thing here is that Turkey doesn't want to change anything. How can we cooperate with country like that?



5.
Opposition in Turkey do not support EU. What if they will win next elections? Not acceptable!



6.
Problem with human rights in some of the regions there. Not acceptable!

sink

WooPeeA wrote: »

NO for Turkey in EU on my side. Why? 6 simple answers:



1.
First problem with Turkey is huge population of illegal immigrants from Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Iran. That wouldn't be a big deal in the 1990's, but after 9/11 we must be more careful in that case.



2.
They are not in Europe. And Yes it is important, however not geographical distance is important here but cultural and mental. Turkey has more than 70.500.000. Only Germany will have more votes in Bruxelles. I'm afraid that they're gonna veto every new law that is against Islam.. Not acceptable!



3.
Death penalty. EU is against.



4.
Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus as country. They have imposed embargo on them. Cyprus planes are not allowed in Turkey etc..

Cyprus is democratic, independent country recognized by every country in the world, except Turkey. Cyprus is also EU member state.

The worst thing here is that Turkey doesn't want to change anything. How can we cooperate with country like that?



5.
Opposition in Turkey do not support EU. What if they will win next elections? Not acceptable!



6.
Problem with human rights in some of the regions there. Not acceptable!

I'm not saying they are anywhere ready to join now, but through political and social reforms I believe all your arguments can be overcome. All European states pretty barbaric and unjust practices at some stage and most of us managed to change, no reason Turkey can not do the same. And if you feel they can't I feel they will prove you wrong, so long as we keep the door open.

sink

djpbarry wrote: »

sink,

I agree with your sentiments, for the most part; if they meet the accession criteria set out by the EU, I see no reason why Turkey should not be allowed to join. However, I fear it may never happen, largely due to the fact (that you alluded to) that a large chunk of the EU's population do not want them in.

You may also be interested in a couple of past threads on the subject in the Politics forum:

EU Turkish Issue?

Youtube video of mob in turkey

The video has been taken down. But regardless one angry mob doesn't represent a whole county.

Should Scotland be kicked out of the EU for this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzztFxoYbcs&feature=related

djpbarry

WooPeeA wrote: »

First problem with Turkey is huge population of illegal immigrants from Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Iran.

Have you got some figures to support this? It should be remembered that, even if Turkey were to join the EU, Turks would still require a passport (or some other form of national ID) to travel to other EU states, so illegal immigrants in Turkey could not just freely relocate within the EU.

WooPeeA wrote: »

That wouldn't be a big deal in the 1990's, but after 9/11 we must be more careful in that case.

I'm seeing a bit of a trend here; Turks, Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis....

They've all got something in common but I can't quite put my finger on it...

WooPeeA wrote: »

They are not in Europe. And Yes it is important, however not geographical distance is important here but cultural and mental.

You think that Turks are (culturally) too different to the rest of Europe? Even though the whole of South-Eastern Europe was part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years and their influence remains to this day?

WooPeeA wrote: »

Turkey has more than 70.500.000. Only Germany will have more votes in Bruxelles.

States are apportioned votes according to their population - I think that's only fair, don't you?

WooPeeA wrote: »

I'm afraid that they're gonna veto every new law that is against Islam..

You are aware that Turkey is a secular republic, aren't you?

WooPeeA wrote: »

Death penalty. EU is against.

So is Turkey.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus as country.

Ah, finally; a real issue, but hardly an insurmountable one. I agree (as I'm sure most people would) that this issue obviously needs to be resolved before Turkey can join the EU.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Opposition in Turkey do not support EU.

Even if true, it's hardly something that's unique to Turkey - there are Euro-sceptic political parties throughout the EU - look at Sinn Féin.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Problem with human rights in some of the regions there.

There are, but great strides have been made in upholding human rights, a fact recognised by Amnesty International. The main problem-area is the South-East, where Turkish forces have been engaged with Kurdish separatists for some time. While it may be years before this conflict is resolved, it is not an insurmountable problem.

sink wrote: »

But regardless one angry mob doesn't represent a whole county.

I know - that was the point I made throughout that thread!

WooPeeA

djpbarry wrote: »

Have you got some figures to support this? It should be remembered that, even if Turkey were to join the EU, Turks would still require a passport (or some other form of national ID) to travel to other EU states, so illegal immigrants in Turkey could not just freely relocate within the EU.

Well, I've seen how does it work in new EU states. Even though citizens of those countries needs passport/ID to cross the border it's not a big deal. 80% of them can pass without any control. Those 20% is checked just to see is the passport picture same as real owner face.

Don't forget about Schengen, no controls at all after they join this project.

You think that Turks are (culturally) too different to the rest of Europe? Even though the whole of South-Eastern Europe was part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years and their influence remains to this day?

It's not what I mean. What if after Turkey will join to EU, their citizens won't be happy enough to vote for pro-EU government again? That's what I'm afraid.

States are apportioned votes according to their population - I think that's only fair, don't you?

Of course it is.

You are aware that Turkey is a secular republic, aren't you?

Yes I am. And I hope it will stay like that even after opposition will win the elections.

Ah, finally; a real issue, but hardly an insurmountable one. I agree (as I'm sure most people would) that this issue obviously needs to be resolved before Turkey can join the EU.

Well, they weren't asked for accept Cyprus 2 weeks ago, they were asked for that many years ago. New governments came but the issue still exists...


My another argument against is that EU budged will not bear the weight of support for so many countries at the momrnt.. We should help one state by one, step by step, and then together work to help the next one.

djpbarry

WooPeeA wrote: »

Even though citizens of those countries needs passport/ID to cross the border it's not a big deal. 80% of them can pass without any control. Those 20% is checked just to see is the passport picture same as real owner face.

Absolute horse****. I travel around Europe quite frequently and everywhere I go (except the UK) I am required to show my passport. In fact, I travelled to Amsterdam and back two weeks ago and guess what? My passport was checked on the way over and again on the way back.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Don't forget about Schengen, no controls at all after they join this project.

There's no guarantee that they will sign the Schengen Agreement and even if they do, they will have to adhere to the rules therein.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for your figures to support your claim that Turkey has a huge population of illegal immigrants?

WooPeeA wrote: »

What if after Turkey will join to EU, their citizens won't be happy enough to vote for pro-EU government again?

As I have already pointed out, this could happen in any EU state; it's not something that is unique to Turkey.

WooPeeA wrote: »

And I hope it will stay like that even after opposition will win the elections.

I'm sorry, what "opposition" are you referring to and how do you know they will win future elections? The largest Islamic party in Turkey is the Felicity Party; in the 2007 elections, they gained just 2.3% of the popular vote.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Well, they weren't asked for accept Cyprus 2 weeks ago, they were asked for that many years ago.

I'm sorry but I don't know what you're getting at here.

WooPeeA wrote: »

My another argument against is that EU budged will not bear the weight of support for so many countries at the momrnt..

I don't know that that is the case, but even so, it's a general issue rather than one specific to Turkey.

WooPeeA

djpbarry wrote: »

Absolute horse****. I travel around Europe quite frequently and everywhere I go (except the UK) I am required to show my passport. In fact, I travelled to Amsterdam and back two weeks ago and guess what? My passport was checked on the way over and again on the way back.

I've been on German-Polish border about 4 times and twice on Austrian-Czech border before they joined Schengen. Of course there was a guard but no passport controls at all. Maybe I was just lucky.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for your figures to support your claim that Turkey has a huge population of illegal immigrants?

http://www.foyer.be/?lang=nl&pageb=article&id_article=219

If you google for it, there's more articles.

I'm sorry, what "opposition" are you referring to and how do you know they will win future elections? The largest Islamic party in Turkey is the Felicity Party; in the 2007 elections, they gained just 2.3% of the popular vote.

All right, I thought they are more popular.. So it's like UKIP in UK. They make a lot of noise, but have only 2,5% voters.

I'm sorry but I don't know what you're getting at here.

That they sill haven't change their minds about Cyprus for so many years and they are making unneeded problem. What about future cooperation between them?

I don't know that that is the case, but even so, it's a general issue rather than one specific to Turkey.

Of course it's general. But eastern countries are still not able to support the new members! Is it not better to wait, let's say 5 years, and then together help to improve Turkey or Croatia? We don't have to be that hurry...

sink

WooPeeA wrote: »

That they sill haven't change their minds about Cyprus for so many years and they are making unneeded problem. What about future cooperation between them?

To be fair Turkey has encouraged reconciliation on both sides, and wants to see the island reunified. New talks are supposed to get going in June and it looks very promising. Remember the Turkish Cypriots already voted in the 2004 referendum by a 2/3 majority to accept the Annan plan and reunify the island. It was the Greek Cypriots who voted it down.

The island being divided is as much if not more a fault of Britain and the Greek military junta as it is of Turkey. The history of the island is pretty complex, even more complex than that of Northern Ireland imo. So singling out Turkey as the sole contributor to the conflict is a little unfair.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Of course it's general. But eastern countries are still not able to support the new members! Is it not better to wait, let's say 5 years, and then together help to improve Turkey or Croatia? We don't have to be that hurry...

If you read my previous posts you would see that I believe Turkey will take a decade or more before it is ready to join. I just hold the firm belief that when it is ready, it should be allowed join.

djpbarry

WooPeeA wrote: »

I've been on German-Polish border about 4 times and twice on Austrian-Czech border before they joined Schengen. Of course there was a guard but no passport controls at all.

I find that very hard to believe - are you sure it was before they joined Schengen?

You cannot travel to anywhere in Europe from Ireland without some form of national ID (usually a passport).

WooPeeA wrote: »

http://www.foyer.be/?lang=nl&pageb=article&id_article=219

If you google for it, there's more articles.

The figures are not terribly specific - no source is given for their estimate of one million illegal immigrants in Turkey. There seems to be very little official information available on the subject. I found another internet source that says:

"The transportation of 575,516 illegal immigrants via Turkey has been hindered and 6,113 human traffickers from 39 different countries have been captured since 1995."

This does not equate to 100,000 arrests per annum (as per your source). I'm going to try and get hold of the report from TUBA that is mentioned in the page you provided.

WooPeeA wrote: »

But eastern countries are still not able to support the new members! Is it not better to wait, let's say 5 years, and then together help to improve Turkey or Croatia? We don't have to be that hurry...

Who's in a hurry? Nobody said that Turkey was going to be joining any time soon.

WooPeeA

djpbarry wrote: »

I find that very hard to believe - are you sure it was before they joined Schengen?

You cannot travel to anywhere in Europe from Ireland without some form of national ID (usually a passport).

I can understand that German-Polish border was not secured that well, there's long time free travel tradition between those two so it's not that important there. But Austrian-Czech border surprised me. Of course there was a guard with guns and they were watching the cars very carefully but there was nobody in "Passport check" point.. That was 2007, Czech joined Schengen this year.


I can tell you another story about how bad EU is secured. In 2006 me and few of my friends decided to make 3 weeks trip. We wanted to go from Poland to UK by car, traveling a lot at the way through Scotland. Scotland was our destination. So we passed Poland, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France and finally get to England. About 50 miles from London I realized that I forgot my passport!
Yeap.. UK is not in Schengen project and I went to UK without any passport control. Thanks God I had driving license and national ID so I had no problems with return. That was 2006.

Moreover! I met a Czech girl in Derby (beside Nottingham) and she told me that she never had any passport and left all her documents in her country. That was not a problem for her to get a legal job as she was EU citizen but nobody checked her nationality before signing contract. Both countries were out of Schengen at that time..

EU protection doesn't work at all. There are strict controls at the airports but they completely forgot about harbors. Being out of Schengen has no sense today and that's the fact.

The figures are not terribly specific - no source is given for their estimate of one million illegal immigrants in Turkey. There seems to be very little official information available on the subject.

I found another internet source that says:

"The transportation of 575,516 illegal immigrants via Turkey has been hindered and 6,113 human traffickers from 39 different countries have been captured since 1995."

This does not equate to 100,000 arrests per annum (as per your source). I'm going to try and get hold of the report from TUBA that is mentioned in the page you provided.

Maybe they try to make their best at the moment. However problem still exists.

I'm not saying that all people from Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia are terrorists but we cannot ignore the fact that most of the terrorists come from those countries. We cannot also ignore the fact that EU is potential aim for terrorist acts in their eyes. And for our own security we must be extremely careful with illegal immigration problem in Turkey. That's my opinion.

Who's in a hurry? Nobody said that Turkey was going to be joining any time soon.

sink wrote: »

If you read my previous posts you would see that I believe Turkey will take a decade or more before it is ready to join. I just hold the firm belief that when it is ready, it should be allowed join.

I think we all 3 agree with each other in that case.

djpbarry

WooPeeA wrote: »

EU protection doesn't work at all. There are strict controls at the airports but they completely forgot about harbors. Being out of Schengen has no sense today and that's the fact.

I needed my passport to get a ferry from Finland to Sweden a couple of years ago. I also needed my passport to get a ferry from Italy to Croatia. See; I can use anecdotes too.

WooPeeA wrote: »

I think we all 3 agree with each other in that case.

I'm not sure we do. You have made it quite clear that you are opposed to Turkey joining the EU. I, on the other hand, have nothing against Turkey joining, in principle; I just don't think it will happen in the near future because there are several obstacles to be overcome.

manon

as I am Turk ;my opinion is Turkey should not join the EU.
most of the turks want to join EU 5-10 years ago but things are changed now most of the Turks do not want EU.
but if EU wants to Join to Turkey ,it is ok we can accept EU.;)

kmick

Having been there I would say the mentality is much more eastern than western. The only thing I would be worried about is that Turkey borders a lot of unstable countries like Syria, Iraq and Iran. Where do we stop. Could Syria be a European country? Could Iran? Could Iraq?

nhughes100

kmick wrote: »

Having been there I would say the mentality is much more eastern than western. The only thing I would be worried about is that Turkey borders a lot of unstable countries like Syria, Iraq and Iran. Where do we stop. Could Syria be a European country? Could Iran? Could Iraq?

Excellent Point - I'd love to find out where the Eurocrats see this whole EU thing stopping in general, both geographically and Polictically.

djpbarry

kmick wrote: »

Having been there I would say the mentality is much more eastern than western.

That really depends on what part of the country you're referring to. I would say that, on the whole, it's very much a case of East meets West. Western Turkey shares many similarities with much of South-Eastern Europe, which is hardly surprising given the history of the Ottoman Empire in the region. Istanbul, for example, is a pretty typical, cosmopolitan European City.

kmick wrote: »

The only thing I would be worried about is that Turkey borders a lot of unstable countries like Syria, Iraq and Iran.

I would agree that Turkey's borders would be a security concern, mainly the border with Iraq and the ongoing dispute with Kurdish separatists.

nhughes100 wrote: »

Excellent Point - I'd love to find out where the Eurocrats see this whole EU thing stopping in general, both geographically and Polictically.

I don't think geography is a big issue; what is "Europe" but a relatively arbitrary human designation. For example, Kazakhstan is a member of UEFA. By the traditional definition of Europe, that seems a little silly, but does it matter? Not really. Precluding co-operation with a country based on their geographic location seems a bit daft.

I'm not sure what you mean by "politically" - there are pretty strict criteria for prospective members of the EU to adhere to, a stable democracy being one.